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But then it says it uses the Shadow Evocation level instead of the fireballs. Why is that, think about it? Because it's not a real fireball. It's an illusion of a fireball. The level of SE is used because it's not an actual fireball, so all things that apply to Illusion spells apply as well.

That's kind of my entire point. I would have been fine if they said "Use Shadow Evocation's DC for the secondary save as well." I would have been fine if they said nothing at all, in fact. But they specifically instruct to use Shadow Evocation's level. Just the level, nothing else. Seriously, doesn't that give pause to anyone else? I want to know if it's just a convoluted way of stating something that could have been said better and with less words, or if it is actually supposed to mean something.

Once again, I appreciate the effort but clearly I'm having trouble conveying the exact part that makes my brain hurt and this isn't getting us anywhere. Perhaps I'm properly stupid, for which I profusely apologize, but since apparently nothing I read will convince me, I'm just hoping that one of the people from Paizo will have the kindness to pop in here and use their almighty finger to type the two or three letters of 'yes' or 'no', and put my (slightly obsessive, apparently) mind to rest.

No. I have a player who runs a Shadowcraft Mage and I'd really like to know whether he gets that +6 DC or not. I can, and will, make a DM call about this as soon as I know how it's supposed to work by RAW in the first place.

If the spell is an Illusion spell, if the DC is the regular DC you'd expect from Shadow Evocation, then why in blazes does the text go on to specify that you use Shadown Evocation's level rather than the base spell's? Why just the level? Why specifically single out the level and leave out the rest? At best it's terrible editing, at worst it's a gray area that needs to be clarified. Hence my asking for someone from Paizo to give me a hand here. :)

I hate to bring out this debate here too... It got a bit heated elsewhere. :/

"Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows"

What save does a fireball allow? Reflex, DC 10+int+level(3)+whatever other bonuses that clearly don't normally include SF:Illusion. The subsequent text specifies that for the level, you'll be using 5 instead of 3. Okay, so 10+int+5+other stuff that still doesn't include SF:Illusion.

Save DCs can't be dissociated from the save type. It's not like a DM ever says "Roll me a reflex save" "What DC?" "Eh, who cares, whatever." You roll a save against a DC, or you don't roll a save at all. So when a spell tells me I'd get the same save that I would for the spell I'm simulating, I really see no reason that wouldn't includes the DC.

Like I said, I've asked around already and I've received many convincing arguments that go both ways. The crux is really whether the text of Shadow Evocation sets the DC to that of a regular, say, fireball, and trumps the normal application of SF:Illusion and the like ("an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation's level" - seems to me a fireball allows a reflex save that wouldn't factor in SF:Illusion; on the other hand, the spell being cast is still an illusion, right?). I have a few people saying yes and a lot saying no, but this isn't a vote. That's not to say I don't value your help, DreamAtelier, but I could quote any number of people who vehemently argued to the contrary (and any number of people who agree with you as well), and neither argument managed to convince me fully.

That's why I'm hoping for some kind of official, yes or no clarification. If there were a dedicated rules helpdesk I'd ask there but I didn't find one, and I understand Paizo's customer service contacts are there to handle sales issues rather than content support. And though they provide email addresses of the designers, I don't want to be that obnoxious guy who spams them for his own (relatively unimportant, in the grand scheme of things) litte rules question. Still, I would really appreciate it if someone from Paizo would be so kind as to clarify this one for me.

By the way, it's a bit larger that just Shadow Evocation. You have the same language in Shadow Conjuration and the Greater versions, obviously, but also Wish and Miracle; and for people playing Shadowcraft Mages, the answer to my question could change everything.

I can make a DM call, I can make a houserule; but I want to be sure I understand the actual rules before I do any of that. For this, I think my best bet at this point is an official clarification. :)

Simply put: would the DC of the reflex save allowed by a Fireball emulated via Shadow Evocation benefit from Spell Focus: Illusion or not? The wording of the spell is a bit wonky to me.

As I've been getting different answers from different people on different forums, I would be really grateful for an answer by the men in charge, so to speak, to put the matter to rest. :)