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My GM and I have a difference of opinion. Is there a rule that prevents using EV before combat starts?
The scenario was thus: My Thaum was observing a monster from a hundred feet or so away while the group discusses tactics for taking it on. I wanted to use exploit vulnerability so I can 1)be ready when combat starts, and 2)if I learn something useful (like a mortal weakness), I can include it in the discussion on how to fight the creature. GM says no, that the ability can only be used in combat.
I understand that invoking the weakness to cause damage is a combat activity, but why can’t the thaumaturge use the find weakness aspect of it outside of combat? It seems to me that EV is split into two parts, figuring out the weakness, and applying it. I think that to “scour your experiences and learning to identify something that might repel your foe” is a simple exercise the thaumaturge should be able to do practically any time. Also, even the actual action of applying esoterica to a weapon in order to establish the effect should necessarily involve combat. If I unobserved, it should be easily done. Observed, it might raise eyebrows when you start fiddling with a weapon, but even that doesn’t necessarily mean combat has to begin.
To me, it is akin to an archer aiming or applying poison to arrows prior to combat. I can’t figure out why it can’t be done, and haven’t been able to find a rule that applies.


Am I missing something? The trait description says can only be used by this ancestry. So unless you are playing a gnome thaumaturge… you can’t wield a flickmace.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:


So there's an argument to be made that a Bottomless Chalice can be Drained every other round.
Don't really agree at all. They're completely separate abilities, there's no reason to think they'd somehow overlap.

I mean, from a pure and strictly gamist mechanical perspective you're right, but...

Chalice wrote:
Drain (healing, positive) Drinking deep instead heals the drinker 3 Hit Points for each level you have. After the chalice is drained, it's left with only its slowly collecting dregs; the chalice can't be drained again, though it can still be sipped from. If 10 minutes pass without anyone drinking from the chalice, it refills itself and can be drained again. If the drinker has negative healing, it can still heal in this way, and the effect has the negative trait instead of healing and positive.
Bottomless Stein wrote:
A magic item regarded as holy by followers of Cayden Cailean, this ornate metallic stein is always filled to the brim with delicious ale, no matter how much is drunk or spilled. If it is emptied (such as by being gulped quickly or upended onto the floor), the bottomless stein will fill again within 1 round as long as it is right side up, though it’s impossible to transfer the ale to another container to sell it or store it for later. The exact type of ale with which the stein is filled is determined at the item’s creation, and cannot be changed thereafter.

Emphasis mine on both parts. From a less isolated perspective, both explicitly reference draining the cup by deep drinking, and the cooldown on both is explicitly how long it takes to refill the cup. As such, unless your Bottomless Stein Chalice is tuned to mixed drinks, it presumably wouldn't be filling with two different liquids, so as I said there's an argument that could be made. Not one I would personally allow, but one that could be made nonetheless.

EDIT: Formatting

I...

This completely breaks the RAI. The thaumaturgic implements power to heal is not affect by the steins ability to stay full, despite the dregs comment. Drink the liquid in it to your hearts content, the thaumaturgic ability of the implement will only heal you once every 10 minutes.

An interesting thing is that you can’t really “spill” the chalice, or it would be useless for healing. You can clip a red solo cup to your belt, tumble around in combat, get hit, pushed, knocked prone, etc., and somehow when you grab it with your hand, it can still be drained for the healing. It’s really the implements power, and not really the amount of liquid in it that matters.


The bottom line, is that all PCs from at least the uncommon and rare ancestries, whatever they are, are looked at by their people as unfortunate cripples.


In retrospect, the hand wraps make sense for people who want to fight without “weapons”. It does seem like the generic catch all to make sure the game allows for them. I’m still getting used to what is a very different magic item system. I’ve played many different versions of dnd in the past, but pathfinder is new to me. In my last campaign. my monk didn’t need magic items. She was one. I didn’t realize how heavily this system requires PCs to have things like striking magic items to stay relevant. Likewise, we had a fighter, who wanted to be the world greatest swordsman, without using magic weapons, and he was doing it. Pathfinder is different.


Cordell Kintner wrote:

Handwraps of Mighty Blows adds to every Unarmed Strike you have, not just punches. Fangs are an Unarmed Strike, so they would also be improved.

Interesting. Odd, but interesting. Not sure I would let a pair of gloves affect a bite attack (or even a kick), especially when the description heavily implies they are meant for hand attacks, but it is ambiguous enough, I can see people doing it.


HumbleGamer wrote:


ps: your comparison with 1d6 bite and 5d8 flaming sword is kinda off, as it would be 4d6 +1d6 fire bite ( probably finesse and unarmed ) vs 4d8 +1d8 ( siccatite? ) fire damage.

Seems quite neat to me.

Are you suggesting that it’s somehow possible to enhance something like an Anahi’s fangs? From what I’ve read, the rules disagree. Do you have a reference?


So, A lot of races feats are really, really weak, and don’t scale well. especially when compared to their NPC/bestiary counterparts. Most early ancestry feats are quickly obsolete with a little gear, and most upper level ones are similarly useless by the time you get them. I Given how weak most of them are, it makes sense to me that an ancestry feat every odd level wouldn’t really affect the game other than to add a bit more flavor. Maybe handy if captured and stripped down (yay! I can use my 1d6 bite since they took my 5d8 flaming sword away), but to a decked out 17th level character, they are mostly useless.

Yada yada yada game balance. PCs of almost all uncommon/rare ancestries must be considered severely handicapped by their kinsfolk. Wings an can’t fly. Spider fangs with no venom, etc. etc. Gotta be awkward when you are like 15th level, and walk into your home town and the typical child is doing things you haven’t been able to figure out after years of adventuring, like fly or whatnot.


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I’d be surprised if no one has mentioned this, but how about not worrying about making new ones for a while, and fixing the ones we have? Most of the uncommon and rare ones have great flavor, but are pretty weak, especially compared to their common counterparts.


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When I saw the Anadi, I instantly wanted to play one. Shapechanging, intelligent spider PC? Count me in! Reading the class though, even after the errata, they are a very nerfed ancestry (still playing one for my first pf2e game ever!).
While an amazing concept with some cool lore, it’s clear the developer(s) that came up with it never went through a period in their life where they found spiders fascinating. I’ve seen some in this post mention pedipalps, which is a good step, but no one has mentioned that spiders have 2 claws on every foot, and web weaving spiders have 3, which they use to grip, climb and yes, manipulate things (read: fingers). While I don’t see them wielding a sword, the manipulate issue was only somewhat solved by the errata. I think a creature with 16-24 opposable thumbs can do a lot more manipulating than described. And surely, knowing how weak their fangs and venom were, an intelligent race capable of magic and weaving would have developed some sort of weapons or tools, even armor that they could wield? Especially after they met people who screamed “kill it with fire!” How they weren’t hunted down to extinction is a mystery.
Also, as the only real thing they get is 1d6 fangs, there surely should have been other things they could have done.
No low light vision or dark vision, even though spiders are commonly portrayed in fantasy settings as subterranean or nocturnal? Surface dwelling elves get it for some reason… in fact, the list of non-humans that get at least low light vision is extensive, without any logic behind it. 15 foot imprecise tremorsense at 9th level is weak, mainly because you can’t get it until 9th level. If you do, you never get a climb speed.
Web weaver is ok for a 1st level feat, especially considering most Anadi can’t spin webs. But it never gets better. The thing that kills the lore, is it still doesn’t allow for Anadi “weavers”, since anything created must be maintained daily, or dissolve away into nothing. That Anadi blanket being displayed by the peacock spider? Yeah, that dissolved the next day. People didn’t dislike the Anadi because they looked like spiders. It was because the Anadi sold garbage silk that dissolved a day later.
Even with the feats, Anadi can’t have more than weak poison, so it would be better to be take alchemical crafting, and harvest other spiders venom. Half the feats should have been Ancestry features (even just a 5 foot climb speed!), with feats making them better, IMHO. Most things Anadi can do, even if maxed out at 13th level are quickly obsolete within a few levels, when character get access to magic items, spells, poisons, etc.
For reference, every spider in the bestiary has darkvision, websense, powerful venom (OP by Anadi standards) and at least 20 foot climb speed. Most have a web attack. The ones that don’t have other special spider abilities that make up for it. Granted, they don’t get cool stuff like character classes, but still.
All this ranting aside, I’m still playing one. The pure flavor is awesome, and worth it. I understand they can’t give us everything (or even much) without it being OP compared to other ancestries, but as I said before, most ancestry feats are pretty weak, and quickly become obsolete anyway with gear and whatnot. Still, a little something other than the concession that you can’t weave or do magic if you can’t weave or do magic. Paizo does an odd thing with ancestries, in that many cases, PCs are weaker than their bestiary counterparts. I thought PCs were supposed to be exceptional.
Last but not least, while the rare ancestries do seem to only get about 15 feats to pick from, is it just me, or is a level 17 feat missing?