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A wizard with a spellbook is more useless then a fighter without a sword. I presume you mean a wizard without his spellbook but its funnier if you didnt.
And they say thaco was difficult
If you're playing in an asian themed campaign I recommend chinese latin. In chinese latin you pronounce the vowels alone as vowels and the consonants individually followed by 'ong'. So 'Paladin' is Pong A Long a Dong Aye Nong
You get the idea. Its atrocious but hilarious.
Tough call. I'm gonna have to go with this...
I just use google translate to find out the name of the spell in russian. I dont know why. I really think it sounds better than latin or greek.
I agree. Danish? Yay! 3 cheers for Danish... I'm colorado born and raised, but my geneology is by way of minnesota by way of prussia by way of denmark by way of norway. I've got a last name that ends in ssen and have done a lot of geneology work. And 3 cheers for not dropping the banhammer on poor summoners!
I prefer all of adamantine dragon's suggestions myself. Imagination and tactics are key, not just 'crank up the cr' or 'illogically make sure all the enemies are buffed to negate the player's advantage... Try hard not to make your solutions 'meta' solutions and they'll be perceived less like 'gm escalation' and remind players that being single minded is sometimes not the best strategy. Sure some encounters should target the players strengths to show that it's an impressive build in its own baliwick, but every build has an achilles heel and being single minded about a single stat means the whole rest of the build is an achilles heel. The one I didn't see on Adamantine Dragon's list that I'm sure he would have added in a heartbeat is 'Attack the party at night'... Not everyone can sleep in their armor. Eidolon isnt around all night long unless you attack during the summoner's watch... Mmmm. Sweet sweet random encounters.
We already have this. Tier 3 is called 'homebrew' and tier 4 is called 'publisher homebrew until they decide it needs publishing.' Of course the fact that PFS cant even use the published crafting rules violates the trope in my brain but i'm not clear quite how PFS works... Who decides the rules the PFS play by... Is it vote by the players or is it vote by the heads of the PFS? Who decides who's at the head? Are the publishers the heads of the PFS? If the publishers are the heads of PFS and they voted not to use their own published crafting rules that would speak volumes to me about them. The fact that one of the publishers said they wish summoner had never been put to paper says to me that the tier 4 'publisher's playtest' is not nearly as thorough as it should be. I always liked the dichotomy between Redbox and AD&D. The idea that you should have some training wheels to start out with makes sense. Once you got the hang of it and started asking yourself why are their racial class limits then it's time to move up to ad&d with the big boys... For me its like
Well the OP originally put this in 'Discussion' and not 'Advice' and Didn't pose a question with his original post. Moving the post to 'suggestions/homebrew' would, in spirit, change the semantics of the post from 'here's what i'm doing' (discussion/talk freely amongst yourselves)
So theres one area where i'm not totally sold on admins moving posts around on their own because clearly I think 'discussion' was the original intent. It doesnt sound like shallowsoul wants advice or wants to suggest you try it out for yourselves. More like an official announcement than asking for advice or critique. In that spirit I'd like to say I'm happy he's willing to give it a try at his table. Deciding if its the best thing thats ever happened to pathfinder or the worst funkilling partywipetastic tactic or anywhere inbetween is all just theorycraft until you put your players through it! From a published standpoint its fair to say spontaneous casters should be able to craft magic items because thats how its published, but I can see a logic to the idea that someone who's spent their life studying how it works should be better at doing such things than a guy who just happens to be able to pull magic out of his @ss... Only shallowsoul knows for sure if he's doing it for thematically interesting reasons or if he's just doing it because his table is full of spontaneous crafters that he'd like to beat down a little bit. Maybe he's just trying to turn his spontaneous casters into study casters so that he has better control of what spells they get. I approve of the first, dont approve of the rest, but thankfully its not my table and I dont accuse the OP of any of it off hand. As it was originally intended as a discussion then i consider the semantic of the post to be 'here's what i'm doing... story at 11! Stay tuned!' So I'm staying tuned! I've always been a follower of the philosophy that 'the one true religion needs no sales pitch'. If it's clearly the inexorable truth then it should be crystal clear and evident everywhere you look. Not giving your players access to crafting will definitely mean their normal cr encounters will kick their butts. On the other hand i'm a 2e person so I don't think the party should only have to face things within their 'range' anyway. Shallowsoul isnt even saying that he's taking crafting away completely, he's just leaving it in the hands of those that study the nature of it instead of giving it to those that just happen to be able to whip it out due to some fancy bloodline or such... Thematically that kinda seems appropriate to me, while mechanically clearly it rooks the spontaneous casters. I think its interesting, and each table has to decide for themselves if they think the change is lame or not, but if shallowsoul's table is willing to find out if the burner is hot by touching it then I say go forth and let us know how it works out! If the 'one true religion' theory holds, then your game should go horribly and everyone should walk away from it feeling like it was a terrible idea. If it works out ok, then the 'one true religion' that "taking it away from spontaneous casters is mean and horrible and makes your table miserable" doesnt hold up to playtest and I think I look forward to hearing either result! Keep us posted!
Why am I tempted to just say make a regular party of fighter wizard cleric rogue where not a single one of them are ninjas, but give them ninja clothes... The leader of the group can be like 'Vector' from Despicable Me... He can be all 'you'll never defeat us! Because WE'RE ALL NINJAS!' and the party can be all 'if you're all ninjas then why dont you ever shut up?'
Wat? You mean 'power creep' isnt the name of some 'optimized thief build'? In that case I rate it 2 thumbs way up!
and a pirate ship in the lagoon? So that's why they call you one eyed willie, one eyed willie. Down here its our time! Its our time down here!And then there was the giant octopus... Sloth love chunk! Sorry about that... Caught in a nostalgia storm.
You could subvert the childs eye. Mr. Tumnus really IS a naughty faun. Chaotic evil lich faun and toto is his pet hellhound... instead of oompa loompas you could have a giant... that behaves like an oompaloompa. That would be kinda creepy.
Falcor and the rock monster! And Mr Tumnus... The naughty faun ;P
So we've invoked the power of this
If you have a problem in your campaigns with paladins falling then its probably a good idea to just suggest they just back off a bit on the dwarven ale. Maybe buy them a snapleaf... Weld some immovable rods to the sides of their platemail...
Is this question like that game paranoia? If the commies hate being commies then why would they rather die than stop being commies?
Here it is. Page 41. Ex clerics. Grossly violates... Loses all spells and class abilities until atoned... And thats even if your alignment or diety's alignment isnt lawful good. If a chaotic evil priest does something his god 'grossly disapproves of' he loses his spells and class abilities. Not only is it possible to hold clerics to the same high standard, it applies to more alignments... All of the alignments... Might even go so far as to say if you have been letting your clerics get away with stuff maybe you've been going easy on your clerics... So in private i'd say a paladin would be held to the same restriction as a cleric. Just do what your god (the gm) thinks is the right thing to do, and in public, do the right thing but then go the extra mile to prove to the locals that it was the right thing. A lawful god would want/expect you to make sure, as their representative, that the player and his god were seen as not just benevolent but also just.
Paladins don't have the lock on being the lawful good alignment, but these questions never come up for lawful good clerics, or lawful good rangers, or lawful good whatever. It is interesting that clerics of a lawful good diety aren't held to the same high standards as paladins of that same diety isnt it... Is that true? I haven't read the pathfinder version of clerics to see if a god can refuse to grant a cleric's spells if the god thinks the cleric isn't doing something right.
I think heres where it would end up for me. A paladin who rescues his buddy and rides away a brigand in the eyes of the community would fall because he's decided not to bother making sure him and his god are seen as doing the right thing. He's half @ssing his alignment and unlike non paladins he is held to both ends of the bargain. Unless your god is the lawful good god of brigands which makes no sense. A paladin who lets the innocent be executed falls because he let laws trump good. He's half @ssing it again. A true paladin would not only save the day but then go the extra mile to prove that he did the right thing so the locals wouldnt think less of him and his diety. If this dichotomy were going down in private (like the goblin babies) then the only concern is whether the god (dm) agrees with the player's assessment, and i think that should be made starkly clear to the player before its too late or its a bait and switch which i will call wrongbadfun even if I shouldnt... Ok. Fine fine. Maybe forcing a paladin to fall being a surprise isnt wrongbadfun. Maybe someone out there really enjoys it. But if only the gm is enjoying it when the player or players are not... it certainly doesnt seem like rightgoodfun.
A paladin that does what he feels like on the inside and it doesnt match his god (the gm) will get fallen. A paladin that does what he and his god think is right but doesnt match local law will become known as a brigand, making paladins not the respected members of the community that I suppose I personally think they should be... A paladin that lets local law proceed with things that are not good in his own personal eyes will know that good doesnt always win. A paladin that lets the local law proceed with things that are not good in the eyes of himself AND his diety would hold that town accountable.
I like the idea that a paladin who puts more stock in lawful would let the execution stand, but he would hold the local government responsible for the resurrection if the victim were found innocent later... A paladin who puts more stock in good wouldn't be bent out of shape for falling by violating the law and rescuing Joe. He knows there's a price to pay for doing what's right and he's willing to pay it. The question of course becomes is the law that the paladin follows the local law, or his own personal internal law, and I think the answer to that question is always is own personal internal law. In the example of freemasonry... If you were to ask the same question of does a paladin follow the local definition of good or his own personal internal definition of what is good he'd always say he goes with the personal internal version.... This is where certain GM's start deciding to pull their own hair out or pull the paladin player's hair out. If and when this dichotomy comes up it goes down 3 ways. If the paladins follow the local idea of what is law and good then people will automatically trust the paladin because they know he's doing what the local folk expect to be right and good. If the paladins follow an internal personal code then the local population isn't going to give 2 shakes of credence to paladins. I'm not sure if the Core book still includes the notion that everybody loves paladins and thinks the best of them. The big trouble is when you decide to follow your own internal code and it doesn't line up with the gm's ideas of what your gods believe.
Oh I agree, if the paladin had no reputation in town his paladinhood wouldnt mean much unless the local paladins of the same order vouched for him. Now if paladinhood is like freemasonry with secret handshakes and litanies... "We make the hard decisions for the greater good kind of thing." I can see a community not automatically giving the paladin any credence. Not everyone trusts freemasons. Its true I suppose. Before you think about playing a paladin you have to establish which alignment your GM is first. Lawful Good gms will probably be fine with barbarian paladinism.
Or is it that I only break it down this way because i'm a chaotic good gm... Down the rabbit hole!
In a scenario where they're going to execute an innocent man, the paladin showing up and saying 'don't execute him because I know he didn't do it' should be good enough for most local communities. They would simply ask him 'how do you know that' and he should be able to give a legitimate answer, which they will believe because they know the paladin is trustworthy and honest... The paladin's shining reputation should work in his favor. Diplomacy rolls where everyone in the community has positive opinions of the paladin... That kind of thing. One of the benefits to being a paladin is everybody else knows what your code is. They're going to trust when a paladin vouches for you because he always does the right thing and is always looking out for everyone's best interest. There is rarely anyone in a community that runs around mortified going "The paladin is LYING! Dont trust him! Cant you see he's FULL OF LIES!" and anyone who did would be getting some pretty raised eyebrows in his own direction. In the case of the goblin babies I believe the paladin would spare them even if it was a common trope in your world that 'all things inherently evil grow up to be evil themselves' First a paladin wouldnt believe the trope even if it is starkly adamantly true. He would always believe redemption is a possibility. Like sam and dean winchester on supernatural he'd basically say 'I'll give you a pass this time but if I hear for one second that you're up to no good I'm coming back here and we're gonna settle this." I used to have a philosophy for paladins that went 'If you told your mother how the paladin handled the situation would she say she thought he did the right thing'.... It was a pretty good philosophy until I met mothers that were different than mine. I will admit that i'm one of the gms that really gives players a hard time if they use their paladinhood as a no questions asked licence to lawnmow everything in their path. Hard moral choices are the whole point of being a paladin, so a person should never play one lightly or 'just because it gets to smite stuff'. Playing a paladin like its a barbarian is what makes me upset. "I am a holy representative of the gods of law and good. Arg bargle bargle. slash slash slash."
I'm sorry if it seems like i'm trolling. Here's what we're getting at. I'm trying my best to be clear and i'm having a hard time saying it in a way that doesnt sound mean. Step 1:Lets create a scenario where i would definitely not win,
That thread was bad enough and I'm amazed it didnt get more of a thrashing than it did. Now the OP here says "That was awesome. Yes lets see a hundred more builds please where we pretend the bad guys just arent feeling like doing their worst today and we'll all call ourselves awesome. And we'll name them all One! Like One trick pony... We were going to name the zen archer Pony, like one trick pony, but it seemed to obvious. And we can all go home. Look. Great builds are great. Great PFS Approved RAW legit builds are even better. The way the bad guys were played in this scenario is the equivalent of saying I caught God napping so I coupe de grassed his butt and WINNING! Love me and shower my genius with praise now! Thank you! If you want a giant list of all the baddest builds ever there's already a thread floating around here for it. I forget what its called. Cartmandude's big list of character builds or something... Hopefully 'One the zen archer' is on his list. If you're going to spend 500 lines of text talking about game mechanics, and when it comes time to properly address the game mechanics of your enemy you decide instead that he's decided do be a cuddly kitten today, then why dont we all just put the books and the dice away, wrap ourselves up in electric blankets around the campfire and let One the zen archer and a hundred of his best buddies regale us with tales of how cool they are. Perhaps i'm not his ideal target audience.
His name is Pappy Newman. Its short for Paptholomew Artaxerxes Euctamon Earl Newman. A very noble lineage.
Is it a fun read? Absolutely. Seeing the zen archers ego follow a trendline of y=x^2 is hillarious. Does the scenario play out even close to as well as the zen archer expects it to? Not by a long road. The only thing this scenario is missing is the last 5 words: "And then I woke up"
Sad truth is that a pit fiend has an int of 26. I'm not saying every pit fiend is smarter than elminster. But based on their stats they are smarter than me, smarter than you, smarter than 99.99% of the people on the globe. The scenario specifically said the pitfiend was fully aware of the capabilities of the zen archer before the fight even started, and he's basically the bobby fisher of making powerful people realize they're in a bad way. You can be sad panda all you want. You give the hellspawn king bobby fisher of pain and suffering a wish spell and enough time to get it off... You can expect the next 12 seconds of your life to be worse than you can possibly imagine. Anything less and you're giving yourself a huge break, and if you only win the fight because you've decided the hellspawn king bobby fisher of pain and suffering has decided to have the brains and imagination of a fish this afternoon well thats not exactly something to be proud of. Is it an awesome powergamer optimizer build? Sure. Could I do better? Probably not. Can anyone else do better? Who knows. Give it a try. Does his build live up to the hype that he himself played it up to be? Not by a long road.
No that second part was for Krodjin
Here's a working link. Seems to still be up and running if you wanna have a look You assume whatever makes you feel better but my argument stands.
If the challenge didnt have a pit fiend in it I probably wouldnt even be talking here. But the second someone starts saying "I have a build thats so badashe that no wish in the world can harm me"... I cant help it. I gotta say something.
What i'm saying is that I don't even believe the guy who says he did it could have pulled it off without grossly misinterpreting the wish of a pit fiend. I'm not interested in trying to do it. IMHO it hasnt even been done yet. You know. I get it. Its a great build. Its a fun thought experiment. If there were a 26 mile marathon of evards black tentacles between this character and the top 6 worst enemies the system has to offer, clearly this character will win that race with his hands tied behind his back... Fantastic. Golf clap. But does it stand up to scrutiny? Does this guy seriously think he can shrug off a pit fiend's wish? I don't have to tell you how it can be done. I can sure has heck say that shrugging off a wish from a pit fiend isnt going to be as smooth as this guy indicates. Not in any game I run anyway. If the maximum power of the wish spell is 'whatever wont accomplish a dang thing at all' then he shouldnt even need to worry about being so awesome. If his gm rules that a wish spell from the smartest most powerful evil being hell has to offer cant slow him down then I dont know that anything should even consider standing in his way. In my opinion thats not a legitimate ruling on how wish works. I'd be hard pressed to find a gm who looked at the pit fiend fight and just threw in the towel. "Yep. He's bad@ass. I guess we can all go home now." The strawman in this scenario is specifically the wish. This guy gives you 5 examples of wishes that wouldnt work and assumes by extension that no wish would work... it's like saying 'these 7 fat men can't outrun my dog, therefore my dog is faster than every person on the planet! Might help you sleep better at night but doesn't make it true. I dont place value in being able to build megadamage unkillamonsters. This is not what gaming means to me. But this guy pretends he has no achilles heel and his handling of a wish implies that even wish spells are impotent to curb his wrath. Well if there isnt a wish in the universe that can even slow you down then whats the point. Its not my job to show how its done and I hold no stock in being able to do it. Its my job to decide if his assumptions on how he did it are valid and I dont think they are. Tell me Gygax wouldnt call BS on this guys 'wish immunity'... Tell me this scenario would play out uncontested in a PFS approved scenario. I just dont see it. I'm not going to bother doing it, but i'll tell you what. If you come up with a way to do it you'd be the first because in my mind this guy didn't get the job done. I know all you minmaxin optimizers like to have your little showdowns of who's the most optimized optimizers in optimizerland, but if this gauntlet is the measure of your success (and it's an awesome gauntlet to be sure) then I just want to go down as saying its a gauntlet that I dont think the zen archer made it halfway through.
I will admit that maybe my ideas arent the best. The one thing I know for sure is that no matter if you're smart, clever, or evil. No matter how you interpret the wording of the wish or how you interpret who grants the wish.... If you are trapped in a room with the smartest, most sadistic, most evil thing hell has to offer, and what he's got in his pocket is a wish. The one assumption that you should not be having is 'oh this wont be that bad' I wont call it wrongbadfun but you are SERIOUSLY selling short the smartest meanest most powerful creature in hells arsenal. And if the honor of hell is on the line? That pit fiend isnt just going to wish you were dead. You should be expecting that you're not going to get off that easy. You should be expecting that if you're lucky enough to be alive by the time the pit fiend is declared the winner you will have been disabled, stripped of all your posessions, been the recipient of the devil's most depraved arsenal of tender loving snu snu, and almost certainly have had all your fingers snipped off. You should NOT be thinking 'oh, this wont be so bad.'
You should always call your invisible servant 'Mr Snuffalupagus.'
For my part I will say very important. Case in point there are rarely any monsters in the pathfinder published material that dont have an associated image.
The way wish is interpreted here it seems like wishing the zen archer wouldnt smile such a wide smile while kicking a pit fiends butt might be too poweful of a wish. Heck it would at least be subject to spell resistance because you know. It's targeting the zen archer.
The way I read wish is that if you wish for something more powerful than simply wishing for an 8th level spell then the 'power' granting the wish has the free will to subvert it in a cruel and sadistic way. The question is who's granting a pit fiend's wish? I thought the pit fiend himself was granting his own wish. Why would he twist it against himself? And having your wish subverted is only supposed to apply if you're wishing for something really outlandish. Wishing the archer suddenly had no fingers might make the wish subject to spell resistance, so a supergenius devil wouldnt wish for something like that. Anything the OP came up with obviously does nothing so the pit fiend wouldnt wish for that. Wishing his bag of holding were sealed shut is trying to effect a magic item so maybe the magic item gets a saving throw... 300 of the OP's arrows are non magical. Wishing the arrows were something else like jelly beans might only effect one arrow. So lets not do that. Even wishing his items were teleported into a wall would maybe give them a save. So no wishing on the archer himself or the items he carries. The target of your wish has to be 'not the archer or his gear' You have to start by wishing for something that doesnt get a saving throw, and maybe changing the temperature to 470 degrees is 'too powerful' of a wish since it basically makes the zen archers eyeballs explode and his lungs collapse... So instead you just make a little lead. It's not valuable. Fill the empty space in the bag with solid stone? Its not changing a magic item. its not breaking his gear or hurting him in any way. It doesnt kill anyone or create value. Its not wishing for money or magic items. If its not destroying the caster or any of his equipment then why is it subverted? Where do you draw the line before you decide the most powerful spell in the game is weak enough to not be subverted? The notion of this showdown is that this is representing the honor of your entire race, you think a pit fiend is going to waste a wish on a puff of air? You have seriously underestimated the imagination and resourcefulness of the best hell has to offer. Its a strawman wish. The OP neuters the possibility that any wish at all would even slow him down. Why bother giving the most powerful devil with the most powerful spell and the highest intelligence the clever idea to cast a worthless puff of air on you when the 'honor of hell itself is on the line' I wont say its total cr@p but seriously. Basically the implication is that the only wish the pit fiend can make is for a bag of popcorn that he can eat while watching his own @ss get kicked.
Dont think its a legitimate win. The pit fiends use of wish was weak and stupid. Not characteristic of the spell or the intelligence/longevity/pure evilness of the creature using it. The notion of this showdown is that this is representing the honor of your entire race, you think a pit fiend is going to waste a wish on a puff of air? You have seriously underestimated the imagination and resourcefulness of the best hell has to offer. Fix the strawman pit fiend first, then even the zen archer goes down. Effectively the zen archer got a free wish and used it to wish a pit fiend was too dumb to even slow him down.
Maybe the pit fiend is just feeling a little chilly. Maybe he just wishes the cave were a nice toasty 475 degrees. You know. Just to be comfortable... Make sure he doesnt catch cold or somethin.
Why wouldnt the pit fiend just wish you were out of arrows? Or that all of the nonmagical wood within 100 meters were turned into tasty tasty butter... or that all of your arrows are tindertwigs... Or that you were suddenly rich! Wishes always turn out better if they're for the well being of another! I know wishing for money is a gray area but whats fair... 10000 gold pieces worth of copper? thats only like what. 10 tons of copper pieces raining down upon your head. 10 tons of copper rain probably does a number on arrows and might be tough to climb out of before you suffocate... if the damage of 10 tons of copper raining down on you isnt enough to kill you outright... Maybe if he just made you rich by encasing you in a 10 ton block of copper. That seems cruel. maybe if you were just at the center of a 10 ton hollow ball of copper. Nah. still seems cruel. How about all the empty space in all of your containers is now filled with solid copper! Good luck getting any arrows out of that... Cant wish for money? ok. Hows about all the empty space in your bags is filled with solid lead. I'm just saying it seems kind of strawman to waste the wish the way he did... Surely a timelessly old and unimaginably intelligent pit fiend could come up with a more useful way to spend a wish than you came up with.
Ah I see. cheetas dont get good hope until possibly round 5
i assume he is an animal speaker archetype which adds summon nature's ally to your list when you can cast them. Ah there we go.
That is odd. I stand corrected. Now about those bard summoners... On the other hand how are the cheetahs under the effect of good hope in the first place.. They weren't on the battlefield when good hope was cast?
I'm curious also about how bards summon cheetahs The inspire courage and good hope attack and damage bonuses are both morale bonuses so they do not stack so that +2 attack and damage bonus from good hope should read +0...
Seems like the perfect time for that acid orb cantrip though. Sizzle sizzle
The original rules for the color cantrip from unearthed arcana 2e you could change the color of your hair or a living persons eyes... Not sure what the official documentation is available past 2e though.
That is fantastic
These seem to be more Ha ha moments than AHA moments... I remember watching someone try to choke a lich with his bare hands. I thought...Do liches have to breathe?
Definitely my last story was an AHA moment that our dm is a killer dm who's happy to violate 4 primary laws of dming in the span of a single session.
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