Hoardling's page

The question about the golem is, an iron golem is immune to magic, but it has a special ability when a magical attack does fire damage the damage heals it. So the question is does an alchemist bomb also heal it?
Now, the Advanced players handbook says: "In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. So if they are using magical reserves then the bombs are magical, so the fire damage would be magical? It maybe a supernatural ability, but it is still magical, and the iron golem is immune to magic. So wouldn't bombs be considered magic for SR also, due to them being infused with magical reserves, thus they are a magical component, they maybe supernatural, but they are still imbued by magic?

To add more detail to the scenario, based on the question. Let's say you and your ally are attacking someone, your ally charges in, Barbarian. You use your invisibility, but your ally doesn't see you go invisible, and you didn't discuss this tactic. You go behind the enemy. Your ally doesn't know you are there, and the enemy doesn't know you are there either. You have not attacked, because you had to use your full move to get behind the attacker, and you had to do other stuff to expend your other actions, draw a weapon, drink a potion, chew bubble gum, etc... Does your ally get the +2 for flanking, even though he has no clue you are there, and doesn't realize he has tactics that could help him in this situation? After you attack the enemy, then I would see the flanking +2 working. Of course, this is excluding things like scent, see invisibility, Blind fighting, etc...

Just being able to hit your creature seems like it should be a really small part of effectiveness. If you have a small group of enemies that are an appropriate CR, any full BAB characters should be hitting them consistently, and then it becomes irrelevant that they beat the AC by 3 and the touch attacks beat the AC by 13, because they both hit.

It does become relevant with multiple hits now, hitting AC by 3 the first time is great, but what about the next swing or the next you will likely miss. Hitting over by 13 means your next shot/toss(bomb)/ray will most likely hit with no problem. This is based on you maxed your die roll, excluding criticals of course.

Once again thanks for the responses folk. I do appreciate it and I am gaining valuable information from it. The side bar conversations are entertaining.

Perhaps touch attack should be removed and replaced with Reflex save for monster, since it is almost impossible to miss with range touch, except early on. Use something like the monster has a DC of 10 + your range modifier to Reflex save against. Since really a person/monster is just trying to dodge your perfect shot spell,bomb, or bullet.

I don't understand how you can have a +6 to Reflex, but have a touch of 9, Cloud Giant. To me Reflex is jumping out of the way of something like a bullet,bomb or ray. Check out Kraken Reflex of +12, but yet a touch of 6. So he is fast, but not really fast except for fireballs and traps? Strange how I can't dodge a single small object, but yet I could avoid a large massive object or at least avoid the major portion of damage from it. Range touch just doesn't make sense to me, and I am seeing the bigger picture. I know monsters have various immunities, SR, DR, etc.. But that doesn't mean it should be a cake walk to hit a monster, especially monsters with high Reflexes and CR.

Perhaps Reflex needs to be added to touch AC and that is new touch AC.

Thank you all for the responses and advice.

The problem I am noticing as creatures advance in CR the touch stays about the same, except for special cases. When you can roll a d20 and hit the touch 40-50 percent of the time without modifiers I consider that wrong for high level characters. High level examples: Bebilith CR 10 touch 10 AC 22. I can roll a d20 with no modes and hit the touch 50 percent of the time, sorry d20s don't have 22 on them yet. Behir CR 8 AC 21 touch 9, Dragon Turtle CR9 Touch 8 AC 23, Giant Cloud CR 11 AC 25 Touch 9. Storm Giant CR 13 AC 28 Touch 10. Kraken Cr 18 AC 32 Touch 6, Linnorm, Tarn CR 20 AC 36 touch 10. Notice I am increasing CR, but that touch is staying low if not lowering. To me that seems backwards. Yes many of these monsters have resistance if not immunities and get saves, but I just think to hit shouldn't be so easy. Like the gunslinger would have no problem hitting all the monsters. The main point is touch barely advances, but characters modifiers do so it is just gets easier and easier for them to hit. To me this is just too tempting for players to want to play. Geez I get modifiers that advance, but monsters doesn't really advance. And a large portion of the monsters touch is under 20. You can hit just by rolling a dice with no modifiers.

As for my party I will continue cause I know in the module there are some monstes with high touch, which will probably end up killing the party due to them relying so heavy on the range touch attack.

PS I hope using those stats isn't wrong, if so I do apologize I was trying to show an example with the minimum info.

By ranged touch attacks, I'm assuming they are spell-casters. Am I correct in that assumption?

Spellcasters, gunslinger and alchemist. So yeah and no. Spells from the sorcerer which isn't too bad. Just alchemist and gunslinger type don't have any true challenge to hit, they aren't using spells. Alchemist sorta like spell, but bomb. Way too easy for them to hit.

What are they using?

If it is spells, are they elemental damage spells? (i.e. fire/acid/etc) Because things start to have lots of resistances and immunities. Not to mention the straight up Spell Resistance that many creatures have that screws casters and has no effect on mundane archers/melee types.
Also of note is how often these things can be used, as spells and abilities will generally always have limits, while an archer can shoot all day long. How many encounters are they having to deal with in the average day?

The example of the Tarrasque is particularly relevant, as his touch AC is 5.... but if you read the whole entry you will see that is not exactly a weakness. Rays (one of the more common forms of ranged touch attacks will not only be ignored but sometimes deflected back at the caster. Spell Resistance 36. Immune to Fire, Acid, Energy Drain etc....

Ranged touch characters certainly have their uses but they have big drawbacks too, and should not be overpowered if everything is played legit.

What are the drawbacks??

Couple things I can think of:

1.Monks add their wisdom bonus to their touch AC.
2.Big guys with a reach weapon and combat reflexes in their grill, sure they can try to use their range touch attacks, but it will hurt.
3.Outsiders usually have resistances to a few forms of energy which should at least slow down the Sorcerer and Alchemist.

edit* oh and dude, try to avoid casting 'wall of text'. its kind of a turn off.

Sorry about wall of text, but I am trying my best to describe everything as best in detail to avoid the typical 100 questions and no answers.

Ok, I am running a campaign and 3 of my 5 players are playing ranged touch attack type characters. They are descimating the monsters very quickly. Almost to the point where it is no fun and not even a challenge. As I review higher level monsters who's AC increase greatly touch still stays the same or gets worse. I honestly think touch/range attack has a flaw, it doesn't adjust as monsters level up. Even ghost and other monsters with high touch AC just aren't that high, still under 20. Characters advance and get better to hit modifiers and damage, so monster's AC increases, but yet touch attack doesn't. So the characters don't have a challenge with range touch attacks cause the modifiers don't get very high. I have characters who only need to roll 2 or above and they hit easily with monsters CR 9. They hit virtually every time without even trying and they are only level 9. I just don't get how range touch is fair, when if you were playing an archer you could still miss an AC25, while the touch only needs to hit a 12 using same modifiers of +10. It is too easy for range touch to hit, while other range attacks have to hit the AC. Yeah, I know some are going to say damage makes a different, but hitting everytime your damage adds up quickly, especially with multiple attacks and you virtually hit everytime. Then you level up and get more damage, but yet the touch AC doesn't really go past 17, but AC makes leaps and bounds on monsters. Heck the Tarrasque has a touch of 5 and AC of 40, hmm which is easier to hit??? A first level character with range touch attack has a better chance then a 15 level character fighting against AC. Are there any rules out there to limit or at least make touch/range touch attacks miss more often? I've almost decide to just make all the campaign monsters ghost just to raise range touch attack only, but I want to be fair to my other 2 players who don't use it. And it would be tacky to do that. How can I make it more difficult to hit range touch attack and yet be fair to all? Range touch attack needs to be modified, to make it more challenging, perhaps you have to hit 5 under the AC instead of using the touch modifier. To get up to the monster and touch it is difficult, but to stand 30 ft and do range attack is nothing. So why play anything besides a range touch type of character? It is easy to hit monsters, even very high level ones. If you need to know the 3 types of characters, I have an alchemist, a gunslinger type, and a sorceress in my campaign that do range touch. I don't like to put limits on players so I am usually open to let them play what they want, that is why I allow it. I just want to make sure they have a challenge.

No body huh?

well GM DAN, I hope you say yes to this build?

Well, I would spend that 147 gold on survival stuff, blanket, bedroll,healing potions and food you know the necessary items. Hate for your character to die from natural causes like a fall oops no climbing rope or pitons. I am impressed with all the work that has gone into it. Go for it! I have always been a liberal GM, but I do kill characters. I guess that makes me a Liberal-5/Killer-4 GM right now. A GM has to level up sometimes also.:)