Seeking advice on player behaviour in / out of game


Advice


Hi everyone,

few months ago I've start Reign of Winter with a group(Rogue, Gunslinger, Cleric, sorcerer, monk) of mixed players some new(rogue, monk, sorcerer) to pathfinder and some experienced(Gunlsinger, Cleric). Two weeks ago we had the 5th session and some things happened that I'd like to get some advice on or find a solution to it..

The players made backstories and I'm trying to implement them into the adventure path. One player made a background story that he escaped from slavery, and that he changed his original name to another name, to hide from his captors and his new name was more befitting to his class/character(Cleric of Milani). And on his escape he made his way to Heldren and build a new life there.

I asked the player if it was okay if i could use his background to try and add some elements to the AP of RoW, he said he was happy if i could do that.
So i thought to make his "owner" a winter witch who values his slaves and that he would try to get his slaves back at a decent price for bounty hunters. I made a wanted poster with the characters portrait, original name and racial description and a price.

When the group encountered the Bounty hunter looking for the cleric, they were in need of assistance to complete a rescue of a certain Noble woman. The bounty hunter could help them if they'd agreed to the price on the clerics head, and he would then leave the cleric alone. But when i gave the player of the cleric the wanted poster he looked at it, and he had NO idea that it was about his character.. Other players had to point out:"Dude that's you!!"
Then they had a discussion about who would pay the price the cleric by himself or the party as a whole. It was a friendly roleplaying discussion about some characters talking about sharing the price and some saying it's the clerics problem let him solve it up to the point the player of the cleric said pretty loud:"if the group doesn't pay the price, they can look for another healer."
Some felt the discussion wasn't done yet but were shocked with the statement and grumbled ok then lets work things out later and just agree to pay the price.

Another issue that happened on the same night with the same player.
There was a fight with the main boss of the fort and some henchmen. They won but the rogue got feared, and ran out of the building and on returning the rogue wanted to know what was going on, but the cleric kept interrupting the question with answers nothing important we need to move. (combat was already over, and there was no need to rush) but he kept cutting the questions short.
And when it came to opening a trapdoor, the rogue and sorcerer wanted to be carefull about it, but the cleric wanted to rush downstairs to see what was there, and they discussed it a little bit but it the cleric became impatient and started threatening to move the other players so he could open the trapdoor. At a point that I interrupted play and said PvP is not allowed and would be an exit for a player if they continue this way.

So far, after that session I've talked to all the players and 4 out of 5 say that the cleric made himself impopulair with the group, and wouldn't mind ditching him back in town. The cleric said he just wanted to move the story along, and didn't want to "talk in character" about the safety of opening a trapdoor. And he didn't find himself as being rude by cutting someone's questions or sentences off.

Issue I have is that the player didn't know his own background and he was being rude that evening but doesn't see it that way.

And I'm looking for a way to make him realize he also needs the group and that he can't keep on saying:"I'm the healer we go left or right, otherwise you can continue without healer." (this sentence was used plenty of times that evening).

I've thought of that the Bounty hunter will take the party gold, and then knock the cleric out and bring him to a hideot where the party can rescue the cleric, but if most of the party wouldn't mind seeing the cleric go. I'm not sure this is a good continuation.

Looking for some creative ways/ideas to solve this. I'd rather avoid having conflicts in groups, but if there's no other way i'd give someone the kick for th good of the group.

thanks for the people reading this wall of text.. I know it's a lot to take in.

Kind regards,
Agonis


Hindsight being 20/20 I would have waited until book 2 to spring that on the party, a bounty hunter out of Whitethrone makes more sense and the party would have been more solidified against exterior threats as opposed to a bunch of people they met the other day. The party's connections to each other are tenuous early on.

Still, given the scenario you are currently in...

You could try to talk about your particular issue out of game. Find out if this is some sort of role play thing for the cleric, like a 'I've been burned too many times trusting the wrong people and I have to learn to accept help from people' thing. If the reason is compelling enough, maybe tell the table about it so they can help foster the RP.

I think its more likely the player is just like that. Then you need to have a conversation like, "This is a team game blah blah blah" and "This isn't a game of reaction time, everyone gets to say their piece etc. etc. etc." You know, Play Well With Others 101 stuff.

I have no idea if the player is receptive to that sort of thing. The player is more experienced with Pathfinder you say but I don't know your connection to the person. If its a friend, you'd be able to work something out, I'm sure. If its a relative stranger it'll be largely up to the group if they want to deal with it.

The cleric player could not want to 'waste time' for any number of reasons. It doesn't excuse being rude, but wanting to move the plot along is definitely a desire players can have. Usually its a good thing. Its also annoying to have to repeat a story that the other player was there for. If the cleric is thinking: "Bob, you were at the table, you know what happened when Merisel was frightened. We explain it to the character." and that's the end of it, then its easy to get frustrated when it turns out that the Rogue player wanted to do an RP scene.

But, you can probably solve that by just shutting the player down when they try to be like that. "Hey. We're not in a hurry. Calm down."

A passive aggressive way of doing it is to end the session early with a lie like "Well, that's all I had prepared. I kind of thought you'd do a bit more RP." If the cleric wants to advance, deny him the satisfaction of advancement for interrupting RP. If you don't reward the behavior it can stop.

Solving things in game is rarely ideal if its a personality conflict issue. But if this is something the party wants to handle through game play, you can't solve this and probably shouldn't contrive scenarios where the party keeps on needing the cleric. That enables his 'Most Important Person' shenanigans. Kidnapping the cleric and taking the party's money just insults the party's collective pride and they'll hunt the Bounty Hunter down on principal.

The party has to call the cleric's bluff. If they say "Okay, we don't need you. Have fun." And then you follow the party and ignore the cleric because the story is about the party that sends the message pretty clearly. If the party keeps capitulating to the cleric then the cleric will keep on making demands.

The group can also tell the player that their behavior is unacceptable to shape up or ship out.


it would help to know the alignment of the characters, IMO if they are "good" then they would want to help the Cleric solve his bounty problem and would all chip in on the cost. That act alone might have been enough to cause less friction in that game.

As for the rest, not all scenes need to be roleplayed out. you don't roleplay someone picking a lock, a player announces he wants to do it, then he rolls the dice. So if it's taking a long time to go door by door then I can understand the Clerics frustration and why he wants to speed things up.

That all being said, if he's turning into a problem player, then from my experience it's best to get rid of him. Problem players only change their ways about 2% of the time, and it's usually better for the group to find someone that's not a problem.

I would certainly take him aside and talk with him, and see if he's willing to be a better part of the group, but from what I see, some of his complaints are warranted. However, I wouldn't expect much to come out of it, in my experience these types of situations never get resolved.


Agonis wrote:
I'd rather avoid having conflicts in groups, but if there's no other way i'd give someone the kick for th good of the group.

You might have to.

To summarize: He tried to dominate two situations with drama respective threat of violence, instead of reason. He doesn't get what's the issue, so he might do it again, not necessarily on purpose. The other players don't want him around - that could be toxic group behavior or healthy instinct, judge yourself.

If it's what I suspect, you won't see any improvement, only quickly created pretexts (which he actually believes), empty promises and periods of peace just to be interrupted by sudden toxic behavior. The hobby has a relatively high amount of such people and they profit from the rather inclusive community. Maybe I am biased by my own experience (4 frustrating years with such a player), but the pointers are there.


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Is this a case of wanting to get rid of the player or the character? If all the other players are saying they want to ditch the player of the cleric getting rid of him is probably the best for the group. The first thing to do is to figure that out. That sort of thing is best handled by the GM and should be done before the next game. A player who is creating a toxic environment will ruin any game.

Some of this may be due to the player’s frustration over the pace of the game. If the game is being dragged out by what he considers unnecessary delays. Keeping the game moving is something that is important, and the GM should make sure that game remains interesting for all.

As others have said roleplaying out some scenes may not be a good idea. I agree with Kasoh that lot scenes should be summarized instead of role playing them out. Assuming the player was present after he ran off there is no real reason to role play out telling the player something he knows. Maybe a little time taken from some friendly insults to the frightened character, but that should still be done fairly quickly.

Why is there a long discussion about checking for traps? When it came up the rouge should have simply checked it. Checking for traps does not take that long especially for a rogue. If the rogue has the trap spotter talent, he automatically gets a check when he comes within 10 feet of a trap. If not, it is a move action. Assuming the rogue is the one opening the trap door all he needed to do was to say that he was checking and either he or the GM make the roll.

If the rest of the group is ok with the player, and this is due to the character’s attitude then handling it in game is appropriate, but it would be considered good etiquette to let the player know before the group ditches him.


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SheepishEidolon wrote:
Agonis wrote:
I'd rather avoid having conflicts in groups, but if there's no other way i'd give someone the kick for th good of the group.

You might have to.

To summarize: He tried to dominate two situations with drama respective threat of violence, instead of reason. He doesn't get what's the issue, so he might do it again, not necessarily on purpose. The other players don't want him around - that could be toxic group behavior or healthy instinct, judge yourself.

If it's what I suspect, you won't see any improvement, only quickly created pretexts (which he actually believes), empty promises and periods of peace just to be interrupted by sudden toxic behavior. The hobby has a relatively high amount of such people and they profit from the rather inclusive community. Maybe I am biased by my own experience (4 frustrating years with such a player), but the pointers are there.

As a general note, its not very kind to throw out diagnoses to psychological disorders based on one person's description of someone else's behavior at a game.

Its just as likely that the player is self centered and a jerk or been taught to play a certain way by previous groups.


I would be interested to know,
- how did the previous 4 sessions go?
- how have the relationships between characters been up till this session?
- how big the bounty was?


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You've got what sounds like more of an out of game problem with a rude and disruptive player.

Someone who thinks they can hold the game hostage.

Take away that power by giving the party lots of wands of cure light wounds. Give them a wand key ring to help activate it, assuming anyone has ranks in Use Magic Device. If no one does, drop a Headband of Intellect +2 (most people play it that the headband provides skill ranks in whatever you want, but it is actually decided when it's made and you can make it UMD). Now the party can heal themselves without the cleric.

Let him chew on that, where he can't hold the game hostage with the idea of being the only source of healing and see how it proceeds.

The player is being a very unreasonable jerk.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Is this a case of wanting to get rid of the player or the character? If all the other players are saying they want to ditch the player of the cleric getting rid of him is probably the best for the group. The first thing to do is to figure that out. That sort of thing is best handled by the GM and should be done before the next game. A player who is creating a toxic environment will ruin any game.

Agreed

Quote:
Some of this may be due to the player’s frustration over the pace of the game. If the game is being dragged out by what he considers unnecessary delays. Keeping the game moving is something that is important, and the GM should make sure that game remains interesting for all.

Maybe if the rest of the players are happy with it, and this one is an outlier than he's the one creating the problem.

Quote:
As others have said roleplaying out some scenes may not be a good idea. I agree with Kasoh that lot scenes should be summarized instead of role playing them out. Assuming the player was present after he ran off there is no real reason to role play out telling the player something he knows. Maybe a little time taken from some friendly insults to the frightened character, but that should still be done fairly quickly.

Generally agree, but it's about what the group as a whole wants. If the rest of the players are really into the RP aspect they may want to have the tension of checking for traps, or filling in a character that was absent for part of a fight.

The most important things is finding out where everyone is at in terms of what they want.

But as I noted in my previous post, the way it comes across from the OP's post (which lacks input from other players) is that the problem player was being very rude.


Thanks all for the input.

I'll try to put in some more info and answer the questions.

@Kasoh:
I've known the cleric player for the past 30 years, just recent 5 years I stopped playing in the same groups as him because the groups were very toxic in terms of player characters reading the AP before the sessions so they knew what was going on, cheating with dice, players activating all kinds of abilities in herolab, and then using those stats whole session even they didn't cast the appropriate spells, namecalling, players who have arguments about rules and didn't want to continue playing if the rule wasn't called out in their favor.. I stopped playing with those people, and he was one of the reasonable players back then. And they treat the game as a computer gaming, trying to rush from combat to combat. but he's stil in the same groups. The cleric player used to be a patient RP'r just last few years i noticed he's losing patience.
He does have a lot of patience when helping others build there character, and explaining the rules just during the game time it's like his attitude changes.

I've talked to him about it, and he has a lot on his mind work, house, other gaming groups. So he will try to be more patient during the game time, and if he's get frustrated I can use a stop word and he'll take a 5 min break.

I've found a bunch of people new to Pathfinder/role playing games. And asked 2 experienced players for helping me to guide the new players into the game. Cause i want everyone to have fun RP'ing and gaming.

Originally i had a bunch of bounty hunters lined up, each having their own way to solve the situation of his owner wanting him back, and maybe I was indeed a bit too quick to introduce this one.. I do have another one for Whitethrone..

The group is stil getting to know one another and the playstyles, so they're not yet speakig up much to each other. I'll have a speech before next game session and will always inform that if players do a bluff, other players can call it.

@TXSam88:
Everyone in the group is Chaotic Good, except the monk who's Lawful Neutral. (Sidenote they did left the outpost and left 4 sick guards unattended).

I'll also have some talks with everyone explaining that not everything has to be RP'd out, but the cleric player also didn't tell the rogue player:"my character informs yours about what happened". the question where just cut short.

@SheepishEidolon:
Like i said bit earlier in the reply, helping build characters and explaining the rules he's patient, but when it comes to playing it's a different mindset. And i know he's stil playing in some groups with toxic people.

@Mysterious Stranger:
It was mostly a case of ditching the cleric not the player. cause up to now they think the cleric is the jerk and not the player.
The Rogue and Sorcerer were roleplaying the safety of oppening the door, and not knowing what was behind it they were trying to be carefull.
Usually it's just a perception roll, and it's done but they were having a talk on how to do it instead of doing it and they got interrupted by the cleric wanting to move on.
I've talked with them aswell and they'll try to have quicker short talks/messages on it to keep the game going.. (as A GM I didn't mind the inplay banter by both of them, just got annoyed they got rudely interrupted). Also they didn't have a whole lot of time together playing in this group, so i thought it was a good idea to have them talk about the things they want to do before doing it.

@Valandil Ancalime:
The 4 previous session went good, first session was introduction and getting to know Heldren, and an encounter at the ambush site. Where they got surprised by the stuff inside the carriage.(hence the rogue being carefull opening doors).
2nd session: they tried crossing a river but the Cleric fell through the ice and into the water. The gunsligner jumped in after him to rescue the cleric. But there was a sligh annoyance cause the Cleric didn't acknowledge he needed the help, and he didn't thank the gunslinger for help. Even though in the strong current of the river and he has a -5 check on swimming, he said he would've been fine...He did get Hypothermia from there cause it was freezing cold.
The sorcere i that session announced he didn't trust any of the others, because he didn't know who they were and wanted to know more about them.
3rd session: they went back to town to get more supplies and to prepare better against the cold weather. some role play happened buying/selling some stuff. There was also some roleplay in some character explaining who they are and what they can do.. I informed them they're walking around with someone who doesn't trust them and if anyone wanted to help take away the not trusting.
4th session was up to the outpost/cabin and the rogue had some trouble with the first trap(accidently setting it off by rolling really really bad on the disable device check). So the rogue roleplayed after that that he was insecure about finding/disabling traps. ( the trap hurt).
I talked with the sorcerer and told him, these people didn't hurt him so he could start developing some form of trust. The cleric got annoyed about the not trusting of the sorcerer, but didn't try anything to improve the trust.. the cleric was infact obviously hiding something from his background...

relationships between the characters was mostly ok up til the last session. The gunslinger gets along with everyone, specialy the sorcerer and rogue. The rogue is getting along with everyone and is trying to help everyone ingame. The sorcerer gets along with most except for the cleric. and the monk gets along with everyone. First 4 session most discussion were between cleric and sorcerer. but cleric and gunsligner also had some slight problems after the gunslinger helped him and he didn't acknowledge or thank for that.

The bounty was 100g

@Claxon:
It was mostly they felt the cleric being a disruptive person, not the player although most found that interrupting others while speaking was very rude.
everyone but the cleric was fine with roleplaying out the situation, he was the only one pushing to move forward, the other 4 were kinda role playing the situation out.
The group is mixed, Gunslinger, rogue and sorcerer like to roleplay stuff out. the monk doesn't care that much, the cleric is a bit used to rushing through stuff from previous groups. And he was also the one after the 1st session already said ok we know what characters we play so we can already move as a strategic unit, while the rest is we don't really know you, lets get to know each other first kind of thing..

Guess I've some more talking to do in the group, and figuring out what everyone wants and how to get to a point where everyone gets what they want and have the most fun out of it doing it.
personally I'm not a very experienced GM (Only ran Wrath of the Rigtheous 2 times before with groups who were more focussed on the combat isntead of roleplaying, this time around i wanted to go for more roleplaying and little bit less CRPG combat style like.)

Next session is september the 3rd, so i stil have some time, and there will be a new player joining the group with a Lawfull Good character based on Carrot Ironfoundersson, and he will be trying to keep his character like the carrot from the books.. So might be a lot of fun..

Thanks everyone for you input and advice.. I stil have quite a lot to learn as GM.


As a new GM, I would recommend that you stick to published adventures and not try to create your own stuff. You can have a better game prepared in the same amount of prep time, and it reduces things which may be taken poorly like the bounty hunters.

Shadow Lodge

I've gotta say that the GM deserves a good share of the blame here, as the whole bounty hunter encounter was a bad idea:
Start with a character that is kinda estranged from the group.
Add a bounty that needs to be paid off to keep that character safe.
Watch as the party argues over whether the PC is worth the cash
Watch as the player gets more and more annoyed.
Watch as the player throws a bit of a (not entirely unjustified) 'hissy-fit' in the following encounters.
Watch as the campaign enters a downward spiral as every action becomes a 'bad' reaction to a prior 'bad' action...
Takes bets on whether the cleric eventually just shuts the door behind the party as they charge into a boss fight and leaves, or the party hands over the cleric for the bounty...

'PC is hounded by Bounty Hunters' sounds like an interesting background hook, but it can very easily go very wrong...


At some point a GM has to try their own content. Unless they permanently want to stick with unmodified foreign content - which has its own issues.

You can dodge some issues with reading advice, learning from foreign content and considering things carefully. But at the end you will make mistakes. Which is fine as long as you communicate with the affected players and learn from it.


If you've run Wrath of the Righteous, then its not like GM'ing can get any harder. You've already experienced true despair as combats are over before half the party gets to act and none of the NPCs even left flat footed.

So, it does sound like the cleric player is from a beer & pretzels tactical game sort of pace. It will put him a bit at odds with the rest of the group which is more role play focused, but if the player is willing to lighten up a bit, then the group can probably survive the inclusion of the player so long as they don't bring some of those poor behaviors from the group you left with them.


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Last saturday I've had a talk with the player in question face to face.
He apologized for not knowing his own character background, and explained he had some trouble with letting go of the "old" playstyle in which lots of arguements were happening. We've agreed that i would use a stopping word when this behaviour starts showing. And we'll work towards a more Role playing approach of the game.

I apologized for putting the bounty hunter this early into the campaign, he said he was ok with it but expected more help from the group, considering most of them were good aligned. I said I'll make some ammends next session, and also have a talk with the whole group about what everyone wants from the gaming sessions.

on a sidenote GM'ing Wrath of the Righteous was my first ever Paizo adventure path, and it was a such pain and caused me so much stress that when we were done I stopped GM'ing for 6 years. This is my second AP in pathfinder and 3rd time GM'ing.. so yes stil need to learn a lot. SO any tips/pointers are always welcome..

Thanks all for taking the time in reading this and replying.


A TTPRG is a social game for the most part. Of course people come with different skills, knowledge, personalities, and expectations. As a GM you have to remember that realistically it is all an advanced game (w RAW) of "Let's Pretend" with you as the dramatist and storyteller, adult in the room, and rule arbiter. Players say I did this or that but honestly you all sat around a table and had a fun BS session rolling some dice. Hopefully you interjected some lessons, people had a fun time and learned something.

So... you chose to run two rather harsh story plots AND started newbies in one. I'm not surprised that things got a bit prickly.

Realize that your experienced player simply displayed what he has learned as an effective way to play from his play history. Sure it was rude and you've discussed it. So now is the time to move on and have a more civil game and for everyone to have fun. GMs are not professional therapists and while roleplaying can be used for that this is play time and not group therapy.

I'd point out to the players that the POINT is to have FUN, not finish the scenario under some time limit (that's the job of Organized Play). You don't want it to take forever (been there) but as you've gone to the trouble of having backgrounds players should try to involve that in the roleplaying/acting.

I'm going to comment that a martial focused approach was used in the early years of PF1 Organized Play. It didn't lead to the best social behaviors as it rewarded martial efficiency (killing foes) and punished going off (plot) track or following your character background, etc. Choo choo!{arm pulling motion of overhead steam whistle cord}   So learn and don't do that unless that's what you want to develop in your players.

Next time try a gentler approach. Let the players learn the rules without the stress of imminent PC death or high drama. Run an intro campaign using PF1 PFS Scenarios and most rules up to 12th level. There are posts about scenarios for kids or simple ones and how to avoid the TPK few (always 1-2 every year). Offhand I'd suggest year 4-10 scenarios.

Introducing your own elements and challenges in a Home Game: Yes. that's the point of a Home Game.
However you should follow the CR guidelines and make sure you're somewhere at APL to APL+3. Use basic storytelling to make sure the challenge fits the plot and scene and has some goal that works towards the denouement. While some challenges are just speedbumps they should have a goal & lesson learned. About 25%-33% of challenges (that includes Discovery) should be social/skill/puzzle/chase/discovery/traps/etc challenges(although there can be a martial solution).


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Azothath wrote:


So... you chose to run two rather harsh story plots AND started newbies in one. I'm not surprised that things got a bit prickly.

I own a couple of ap's (Reign of winter, wrath of the righteous, mummy's mask, giantslayer, iron gods, hells's rebels and Vengeance) and I've let the players decide which ones they wanted to play.. But yeah it weren't easy stories to GM. I also had an option to run Rise of the Runelords the anniversary edition but 2 of the players already played that one from start to end.

Last session was on 3rd of september and before we started we had a conversation on what type of game we wanted to play, and after some points from all the players. Everyone agreed to try mix of roleplaying and combat.

The experience player spoke to the group as well that he has been a bit rude the previous time and everyone forgave him for it.

And we laid out some basic rules like don't interrupt the one who's talking and wait your turn to speak. And a rule to not discuss rules during the game but accept the ruling of the GM and discuss after. and they also wanted me to put a more firm hand on the table if things looking like to get out of hand. And that I would be more carefull making up stuff out of the backgrounds to not set players up vs each other. and after sessions I've planned a short feedback moment, where we can all discuss what we liked and disliked.

After we had that little meeting we started to play and the session went very well, it was more a lot of roleplaying and the players had a lot of fun with it, did some skill rolls and diplomacy checks. The Cleric player role played a solution with the bounty hunter, and everyone in the group helped him find a solution and now they have bounty hunter who'll do stuff for them occasionaly when they need help with information or certain non combat tasks.

Everyone had fun and they all thanked me and each other for a goodnight of entertainment.

Other then that the campaign is looking to be on a 6-8 weekly schedule.
So i can look at your last suggestion and get the newer playerss in between campaign session and occasionally run scenarios with them to get a better grip on the rules.

thanks again for the advice and feedback.


Agonis wrote:
I own a couple of ap's (Reign of winter, wrath of the righteous, mummy's mask, giantslayer, iron gods, hells's rebels and Vengeance) and I've let the players decide which ones they wanted to play.. But yeah it weren't easy stories to GM. I also had an option to run Rise of the Runelords the anniversary edition but 2 of the players already played that one from start to end. ...

Thanks for GMming. It is a fun task but the rewards are a bit different than playing the game.

The APs tend to be harsher than the PF Org Play scenarios though more immersive. I know several GMs that alternated between an AP & several Scenarios to "fill the gaps" in level progression. You have to add to the APs.

You could buy adventures at a used bookstore or online or borrow/library checkout some old DnD3.0/3.5 ones and then convert them to PF subbing in a similar monster. Check Paizo Store for free scenarios (like Free RPG Day ones or Quests). Just make sure that Average Party Level(APL) of 4 PCs sets the CR of a challenge to APL +0 to +3. That should keep you in a good zone.


Glad things are woking out. Goood luck.
I've heard several people suggest APs. I personally along with two other GMs don't use them. Here's why from First Ed D&D which Pathfinder is based off of to First Ed Pathfinder have found modules tend to insist railroad players to do things that one way. First Ed D&D was the worst but I have seen some of it in Pathfinder. Players that don't follow the script are punished some horribly so.
My advice for running your ow campaign is base it off an establish world. I kow several people who still use 3.5 Forgotten Realms. Tat way most of the big stuff is done. If you design your own world you should have the basics done focus on one area where you lann on running for at least a few adventures. A GM did it and it worked.

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