Geminus's page

The other issue is that you have to compare the occult, divine, and primal casters to bard, cleric, and druid. The sorcerer gets one more spell per day per level, which is legit nice, and more spells known than the bard. But all 3 of those classes get not only a more durable chassis but get some really potent class features that define them. Compositions are really strong, and Channel is still really good even with the nerf. The druid orders/feats also tend to do more for the class than bloodline powers do, between the wild shaping and animal companions and so forth.

I agree 100% with the lack of substantive sorcerer class features, and I think the bloodlines are an excellent opportunity to really set the Sorcerer apart. I was personally hoping they would integrate elements from the Kineticist or 5e warlock. I've always envisioned Sorcerers as an endless font of raw magic, with several potent at will abilities.

Also, I have never liked how each bloodline has its bonus spells predetermined. I think it would be nice, if each bloodline had a pool of spells the Sorcerer could choose from.

I think there's a difference between picking or not picking a class and having one bloodline that is just clearly the optimal choice. Having a static AC bonus would be HUGE given how tight the AC numbers are.

I think passive energy resistance seems more reasonable by comparison, but AC is just an incredibly valuable commodity this edition.

I agree that AC is of increased importance in this edition, and I am not saying give draconic sorcerers +4 to AC like they had in 1E. I’m just saying give them something more, and passive boosts were the first thing that came to mind. Namely, because these boosts went from being abundant to completely absent, which I feel is an overcorrection. I would be just as happy with some interesting (as in useful, not gimmicky) at-will abilities.

Although I still disagree that bloodlines are somehow different than any other choice in game. If the draconic bloodline did give an AC boost (+4 is entirely to high, maybe +1), that would make it optimal for defensive and melee builds. Not optimal at everything. If you wanted your Sorcerer to be support oriented, then selecting the Draconic bloodline with the AC boosts, Arcane spell list, and damage-oriented abilities would be suboptimal to picking a bloodline with the Primal, Occult, or Divine spell lists and support oriented abilities. Optimal is a relative concept, and in my opinion treating bloodlines as somehow different than any other choice in game is arbitrary.

However, I am less interested in specifically discussing passive abilities, and more interested in discussing Sorcerers as a whole. Do you feel as if the Sorcerer is in a good place, or do you think it needs some more “spice”? Is there anything you would change about them? I am trying to determine if others also find them wanting, or if I have just lost my mind.

Bingo. For example Draconic just straight boosts your AC (Eventually by a strong amount), which means a Draconic Sorcerer at its base just has a much higher AC than any other Sorcerer, which means if you want a Sorcerer with a decent shot at turning blows you kinda have to go Draconic or you're several points behind. It's just a piece of the overarching PF1 issue of adding numerical bonuses all over the place.

If we got passive bloodline perks I would absolutely want them to be something interesting rather than a numerical boost.

I am all for interesting abilities, but I don't quite see how passive numerical boosts are inherently skewed. At least no more so than anything else in the game. For example, if you want to be an awesome healing cleric, then you want to channel positive energy instead of negative energy. If you want to be an unarmored combatant, then you want to be a monk, or at least multiclass monk. If you want to have the highest possible health, then you never want to be an Elf with a CON flaw or a spellcaster with a d6 hit dice. Weapon bonuses now give more dice instead of flat bonuses to damage, but the result is the same: the stronger the weapon (or class feature that enhances the weapon), the more pain you inflict upon your enemy. The proficiency system, which they have baked into almost every single aspect of the game, is based on numerical bonuses. Classes, feats, backgrounds, races, and basically everything in the game comes with inherent advantages and disadvantages that will make you better or worse at one thing or another. The numbers and math are still there, they are just presented differently.

Ultimately, I just want to see them spice up the Sorcerer. Outside of the "bloodline determines spell list thing", everything about them just seem so "blah". The class feats and bloodline abilities leave me uninspired. None of the Sorcerer feats whet my whistle like Angelic Form and Celestial Mount on the Paladin, or Universal Versatility or Makeshift Wand on the Wizard. But that’s just me. I am sure there are plenty of people positively titillated by the current incarnation of the Sorcerer.

Some things like passive elemental resistance were fun but I also kinda like how 2E handles that with Dragon Claws, but other things like Draconic natural armor and other numerical bonuses didn't really contribute positively to things in my opinion.

Can you elaborate on that? I don't see how bonuses are not a positive. Do you mean they were not that impactful, or are you saying they are a negative? From a roleplaying perspective, wouldn't passive abilities make sense? If my inner dragon, angel, etc. is becoming more powerful, wouldn't that effect my physiology? Or at the very least grant me some abilities that last longer than an hour?

I just think bloodlines should feel more special. On one hand your choice of Bloodline is very important, because it determines your spell list, and 11 of the spells in your repertoire. On the other hand, in my opinion all the bloodline abilities feel like gimmicky spells and none of them feel particularly potent (e.g. Faerie dust lasts 1 round).

Does anyone else miss the passive abilities from 1E? Before as a Sorcerer gained levels, they become more and more like their magical progenitor. For example, a Celestial Bloodline Sorcerer got some resistances at level 3 and by level 20 they had resistances, immunities, unlimited wings, and permanent Tongues. I haven't seen anything like that for the 2E Sorcerer.

In fact the closest thing I have seen to that is Angelic Form, a feat which grants wings and low-light vision, but is exclusive to Paladins.

We're still deep in the final stages so now's not quite the time yet to reveal details. That said, I came up with what I thought was a clever two word cryptic phrase to say that could engage speculation without promising anything, then remembered it used to be the name of a sorcerer feat so it would probably mislead everybody if I said it into thinking "What's so big, are they just changing that feat?"...so now you can speculate on that ;)

If I were a betting man, I would place money on Bloodline Heightening no longer costing a feat and being a default part of the class. Similarly, I could see bloodline powers no longer costing feats.

I also see great potential for Blood Sorcery. The feat could be changed to something that increases the versatility of the Sorcerer. Maybe they can trade HP to adjust their spontaneous Heightening selections on the fly, like Wizards can change their prepared spells with Quick Study. Or maybe by endangering themselves, Sorcerers temporarily gain access to additional forms of magic.

Hey guys,

I feel like we've gotten a bit off track of the original topic of Jason's interview with the ranger and that talking about ranger theme and history might deserve it's own thread where those who are passionate can discuss it as the only topic. That said, since we don't have that yet (could someone interested in rangers start one up?) in terms of the question about survey results on spells and rangers, basically the results were the "Default no spells, with add an option to get spells like monk" option won by a landslide (and that'll guarantee we add that option at the soonest possible juncture we can fit it in), followed by the "Ranger never get spells" option with a sizeable chunk but nowhere near enough to challenge the leader, and in last place was the "Ranger has mandatory spells like in PF1" option.

Thank you!

I don't want to seem greedy, but could we get some tidbits about changes to the Sorcerer?

Wait, what makes you think these boards are being shut down? Did I miss an announcement?

I'm pretty disappointed with no mentions of Vancian casting being changed. At this point it 99% means that it's not happening

I share your dismay about vancian casting. I'm curious about your opinion on the current state of spontaneous casting. I personally find the current spontaneous casting mechanics overly restrictive and an unsatisfactory alternative to vancian casting. At this point I probably sound like a broken record, but I desperately want to enjoy 2E, but can't if I find the casters wanting.

I say let wands have unlimited charges of spells, but require a certain amount of time between uses. Like level 1 wands would require 1 round between uses, level 2 wands would require 1d3 rounds between uses, level 3 wands would require 1d4 rounds between uses, and level 4 wands would require 1d6 between uses.

Or make them ranged magical weapons that deal less per hit than cantrips, but only require a single action to use and are subject to the multi attack penalty.

First, thank you Joe M. for the write up. You saved me a lot of time.

Second, I like the changes they have mentioned thus far. Especially the parts about expanding archetypes, abandoning resonance, the impact of legendary proficiency, spell revisions, reinventing wands, and reorganization (giving powers their own section).

Third, I am still concerned about the classes. I felt as if the classes in the play test were anemic. They seemed to have very little "back bone" (base features) and the class feats meant to customize them seemed limited and underdeveloped. The Paladins (now Champions) felt too reactionary, the Fighter was hoarding all the good combat feats, the Alchemist felt unnecessary when compared to the casters, and the Ranger lacked quality features to compensate for the loss of spells (at least Paladins gained powers). I'm most concerned about the casters, because I love my magic users and they will determine if I invest in 2E. I am disappointed by the continuation of traditional Vancian magic for the prepared casters, and the Sorcerer felt middling (it lacked the robust bloodline features from 1E and I personally found the spontaneous heightening and concerns about "decision paralysis" patronizing).

What if sorcerers, in lieu of choosing availability of spontaneous heightening for a particular day, would be allowed to select and then be able to provide a casting of a specific spell otherwise known (but not in their current repertoire of spells), but be limited to it being only for the purpose of providing that spell for crafting purposes. It would also of course consume a spell slot of the appropriate level when used for this crafting process. It cannot be used to cast the spell directly as per a normal spell.

Or just have it be part of Crafting for a sorcerer, that they may temporarily swap one spell out of the repertoire with a spell known, which during the time of casting, is only available for the purposes of providing a casting for the crafting purposes. At the completion of the crafting, the original spell in the repertoire returns as before the crafting began.

Either option might allow sorcerers access to a bit more of the crafting flexibility that the prepared casters have, while requiring a reasonable cost to them, but relatively simple to implement.

Your post inspired me to come up with this:

Spontaneous Generation

When you craft a magic item, you may ignore one spell prerequisite. To do so, you must expend a spell slot of the highest level you can cast. You can only do this with spells you know well and spells of a level you can cast. You are considered to know all of the spells in your repertoire well. You can familiarize yourself with more spells using the Learn A Spell activity of the Arcana, Nature, Occultism, and Religion skills.

When crafting scrolls, wands, or staves, you can only use Spontaneous Generation to ignore the spell requisite for a spell appearing on your spell list.

The above was based on the 1E Sorcerer's Impossible Bloodline ability also called Spontaneous Generation.

It also occurs to me that maybe there only needs to be changes to the scribe scroll skill feat to address your issue (and/or clarification on what constitutes an "available" spell).

They already removed a lot of limitations on brewing potions. Basically anyone with the magical crafting feat can make potions now without having to "supply a casting of X spell". I would love it if they loosened the reigns on scrolls as well. However, I would keep wands and staves caster exclusive.

And I mean you can't necessarily change your GM (though talking to him/her may be an option when there's something that effects the game this much), but that doesn't really speak to the balance of the game as a whole, just under a specific GM's altered version of the game.

It does speak to the balance of the game that prepared casters can craft and buy their way around of some of their limitations, but spontaneous casters can only buy. Nor does it change the fact that Quick Study is incredible, with no spontaneous equivalent.

Anecdotally, it's the difference between my player's level 17 Sorcerer wanting to throw out Meteor Swarms and instantly swapping over to two Power Word Kill and a heightened Finger of Death when they realized the enemies were immune to fire.

Sorcerers are significantly less vulnerable to having dead slots at the cost of lower daily versatility.

That brings me back to my original post. Prepared casters can compensate for "dead slots" and other limitations with self-made items. Sorcerers and Bards can only compensate for lower daily versatility with items bought from someone else. That feels imbalanced to me.

and I personally like bloodline powers.

In some ways, I prefer the bloodline design of 1E. There is no doubt that the bloodline powers in 2E scale better, but I liked how in 1E the bloodlines conferred passive bonuses in addition to active powers. For instance, the draconic bloodline gave an AC buff and elemental resistances. In the absence of these highly thematic bonuses, Bloodline powers are functionally no different than Cleric Domain abilities or Wizard school abilities.

There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of spontaneous casting...

That's actually another problem I have with prepared vs. spontaneous casting in the current version of 2E. In my opinion, spontaneous casting should have a lot more to offer than just simplicity. As the only alternative to Vancian spell casting, it should be its own robust magical framework with distinct advantages and disadvantages. For example, in 5E the Sorcerer is limited to a paltry 15 spells known, but in exchange they gain exclusive access to metamagic and their Sorcerer Points allow them to cast potentially more spells per day than Wizards. At present the 2E Sorcerer has nothing to offer a player besides simplicity. Sure at max level they can have 40ish spells in their repertoire, but 10 of those spells are predetermined for them by their bloodline, and the Sorcerer has to expend slots on multiple versions of the same spell.

Correct me if I am wrong, but besides being "simple" what mechanically does the Sorcerer bring to the table? What other advantage do they have over Clerics, Wizards, or Druids? At least the Bard has its support capabilities, lore mastery, and skills.

Yeah the crafting advantage is really just relevant if you can't find a good shop. Which is not nothing, but it is a pretty specific issue.

Frankly, if your magical item access is limited that much, I'd expect you also need to craft to get your choice of permanent items and that's a better use of your time, so spells known stops being relevant.

My desire for crafting equality stems from my experience playing. The GM I play with the most is a hardcore believer in randomization. Unless we are in some sort of mega-metropolis where all common magic items are for sale (which has happened twice in the three years I have been playing with him), we can never assume what we want will be readily accessible. For example, when I first started playing with him, it took me 4-5 sessions to buy a wand of CLW, because the dice were never in my favor when rolling for store inventory. If I have wanted access to anything besides basic healing potions on a reliable basis, I have had to craft it myself. So a strong desire for self-sufficiency has been deeply ingrained in me.

And spells only need to be known to be used in crafting, they don't have to be in your repertoire.

Im specifically focusing on magic consumables (wands, scrolls, potions, etc.), because they have usually been used to supplements a caster's magical arsenal.

I would be happy to be wrong, but if you look at the crafting requirements for scrolls, staves, and wands., they all say "Supply a casting of X spell" under crafting requirements, not "know X spell". A spontaneous caster can only cast a spell if its in their repertoire, or presumably if they source the spell from an item or another caster. Once again, this leaves prepared casters at an advantage, because they can change their prepared spells everyday, and thus what magical consumables they can make, everyday. Since it is harder for spontaneous casters to change their spells, it greatly restricts the different types of magical consumables they can make.

A Wizard and a Sorcerer can probably make the same number of scrolls in a given timespan. However, since the Wizard has greater spell access, they can make a wide variety of scrolls, while the Sorcerer is stuck making the same scrolls, of the same spells, over and over again. Since Wizards can trot out a scroll of basically any spell they know, at any given time, this undercuts the supposed "disadvantage" of prepared casting. If they don't have the spell they need prepared, they can break out a scroll they made at half-cost, or fall back on Quick Study. If a Sorcerer doesn't have the spell they need, they have to fallback on whatever they have purchased (at full price) beforehand. In this regard, the Wizard is self-sufficient, and the Sorcerer is not.

Potions appear to be different. None of the potions I saw in the rulebook said anything about "supplying a casting of" or knowing any spell. I assume this was done by Paizo so anyone could brew things like healing potions.

But there is nothing preventing spontaneous casters from creating magic items as far as I know, so this really isn't a contributor to any discrepancy. Both casting types have equal access to that.

Yes spontaneous casters can craft, but they can only make scrolls, wands, etc. of spells they know. So when they make items, they are only expanding their number of spells per day, not diversifying their spellcasting portfolio. Prepared casters on the other hand can create scrolls, wands, etc. of any spell they can prepare, so they are expanding their number of spells per day, and increasing the number of different spells they have available at any given moment.

The supposed advantage of Prepared Casting over Spontaneous casting is that in exchange for having to plan their spells beforehand, Prepared Casters can potentially access every spell on their spell list. Conversely, the supposed advantage of Spontaneous Casting over prepared casting, is that in exchange for the flexibility to cast unplanned, Spontaneous Casters have a limited spell selection.

However, Prepared Casters have always had self-sufficient means to address the supposed rigidity of prepared casting. For example, Prepared Casters can spend their downtime making scrolls, wands, and potions that allow them to access numerous spells on the fly. Furthermore, class features like Quick Study allow Wizards to adjust their prepared spells in a matter of minutes. In contrast, if a spontaneous caster wants to expand their access to spells, they must buy items at full cost. While Prepared Casters get to be economical and self-sufficient, spontaneous castes must rely on their GM to send them to places where their desired items are for sale. Additionally, I know of no spontaneous equivalent of Quick Study.

To address this discrepancy, I propose making it easier for Spontaneous Casters to change their spells known. Right now, Spontaneous Casters only get to swap one spell per level, or they must spend an indeterminate amount of downtime to retrain a spell. I say let Spontaneous caster make potions that allow them to change their spells known. For example:

1. Minor Repertoire Potion (cheaply priced): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change one of their spells known. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 24 hours.

2. Lesser Repertoire Potion (less cheaply priced): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change three of their spells known. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 24 hours.

3.Moderate Repertoire Potion (decently priced): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change a number of their spells known equal to their spellcasting modifier. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 24 hours.

4. Greater Repertoire Potion (this hurts the wallet): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change a number of their spells known equal to 3 + their spellcasting modifier. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 72 hours.

5. Major Repertoire Potion (expensive): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change a number of their spells known equal to their character level. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 72 hours.

6. True Repertoire Potion (holy mother of god expensive): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change all their spells known. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 1 week.
Does anyone else agree there is a discrepancy between prepared and spontaneous casting? If so, how do you propose that discrepancy be fixed?

Geminus wrote:

Secret Wizard wrote:

I think the rationale was that you get to pick Bloodline Powers instead.

I don't think they had archetypes in mind when they put it together, though.

I suppose I get the bloodline power argument, but I personally don't feel as if bloodline powers are adequate substitutes for class feats. Its not as if you get to pick from multiple bloodline powers. You select your bloodline at level 1, and from then on out, all other choices (bloodline spells, powers, skills, etc.) are dictated for you. And I for one don't think the bloodline powers are compelling enough to make them the deciding factor in bloodline selection. I chose the Fey bloodline because of the spell list and the flavor. The fact that the bloodline powers were cool was just a bonus. I also don't think bloodline powers make up for the problems this creates with the archetype system.

Yeah, I think the easiest solution is to fold Bloodline Powers into Class Feats, and then you can choose to pick them or not.

I agree. The current setup seems counter to their previously stated design goals. I thought the whole point of standardizing how the classes progress was to ensure all classes felt fully customizable, and all classes could interact fairly equally with other systems, such as archetypes. Of course there were stated exceptions, like fighters with class feats, and rogues with skill feats. I just wish they had been more upfront about the Sorcerer.

I think the rationale was that you get to pick Bloodline Powers instead.

I don't think they had archetypes in mind when they put it together, though.

I suppose I get the bloodline power argument, but I personally don't feel as if bloodline powers are adequate substitutes for class feats. Its not as if you get to pick from multiple bloodline powers. You select your bloodline at level 1, and from then on out, all other choices (bloodline spells, powers, skills, etc.) are dictated for you. And I for one don't think the bloodline powers are compelling enough to make them the deciding factor in bloodline selection. I chose the Fey bloodline because of the spell list and the flavor. The fact that the bloodline powers were cool was just a bonus. I also don't think bloodline powers make up for the problems this creates with the archetype system.

Am I the only one surprised and disappointed that Sorcerers only get 6 class feats? Especially when Wizards get 8? I was under the impression that all classes got 10 class feats, with the exception of fighters who get more. I wanted to recreate an Arcanist by taking the Wizard archetype, but doing so leaves me with virtually no sorcerer feats. In fact, with only 6 class feats, Sorcerers are severely discouraged from partaking in any archetype. Is this an oversight, or by design?

I haven't read all 400 posts, so I apologize if I am repeating what others have already said.

I think the Legendary tier presents fantastic role playing opportunities. A chance for players to concoct compelling backstories about how they became extraordinary. Maybe the fighter decided to learn about Ki from the a Monk; not enough to spit fire, but enough to jump high and survive great falls. Perhaps the fighter did something pleasing for their deity and was rewarded with a boon. If Wizards can learn to harness magic and bend reality through study, its conceivable that same Wizard could teach a fighter just enough magic to enhance their physical condition. Its possible that a fighter's legendary power could be the result of their ancestry; a tiefling fighter could say through training or exposure to some magical phenomenon, that they have unlocked latent potential from their infernal blood.

Golarion is a world of magic and wonder, and now anyone, regardless of class, can dabble in the fantastical. I don't see that as unrealistic of game breaking, I see it as a logical and compelling extension of a fantasy setting. It's up to the player and/or the DM to weave a believable story and make the experience truly immersive. Just my two cents.

Given the nerf to the spell, go right ahead I would say

I cant think of a good reason why Unchained Summoner should be left out of the Snowball fun. Every other primary spellcaster has a reliable low level ranged attack spell, except the Summoner (I am not counting Acid Splash). Even the Bard gets Ear Piercing Scream.

I honestly can't think of any instance where they have said for a new spell that it is an unchained summoner spell. I have always gone with the understanding that if it doesn't say it is added to the unchained summoner list that you don't get it, but I would be thrilled to be wrong.

RAW, I can see how you came to that conclusion. I had a similar thought process, and I was hoping someone here would contradict me.

I hope that this is not RAI. There is something inherently illogical about continuing to beef up the "broken" spell list of the original summoner, especially when the original summoner is no longer legal in PFS play.

Has any other class spell list gone 2/3 years without a single update?

Do Unchained Summoners have access to the Snowball spell? On one hand, paizo's official website clearly lays out which spells the Unchained Summmoner gets, but that was released in 2015 with Pathfinder Unchained. Ultimate Wilderness, which was released in 2017, lists Snowball as simply a "Summoner" spell (Aquatic Calvary and Fey Gate are also listed, but I am primarily concerned with Snowball).

Are we to believe that Paizo is continually expanding the original Summoner spell list, a list they felt so fundamentally broken that they had to revise the entire thing? Or do the spells from newer books automatically apply to Unchained Summoners?

As a note, Ultimate Wilderness only specifically mentions the Unchained Summoner once in the entire book, and that is in the description for the Leshy Caller archetype.