Options for ALL classes? If they really mean all, that's exciting- I'd love to see what kind of Thaumaturge or Kinetecist or Investigator options would be in a book like this. I really doubt that is what that means. More likely options that all classes can take.
If they did, I missed it. Personally I'm not marketing genius, but I would think just announcing he product with a bit longer of a wait is preferrable to radio silence and uncertainty. If there is a reason for the delay/paizo being tight lipped, it would be nice to know that reason. But again there could be, and probably is, a reason for what's going on; I'm just antsy.
Yeah I think the most optimistic take I have is that paizo is changing from announcing their biggest rulebooks at gencon, to letting gencon be more about the releases that come out gencon week. We might still get this book next gencon... Hopefully. It's just unfortunate that we get a change in announcement scheduling, seemingly the longest play test we have had, and no communication about any of it. Made worse that I find the classes really interesting and am very curious to see the final versions.
That's a very interesting theory and I would not be surprised if it was the case. I hugely look forward to new classes and I'm not especially patient, so I'm not sure if I agree with stretching out the wait between play test and release, but in the grand scheme it's not a big deal. I was hoping the impossible classes would be out a year after their play test, so around January, but that window has closed. Then hoping to hear more about it at gencon; that didn't happen either. Hopes dashed again when nothing was mentioned in the mid August keynote. I think I look forward to this stuff too much!
My hopes for a shifter are to make it similar to the adaptive shifter from 1e. You can morph your body into a bunch of specific animal parts, such as growing quills for ranged attacks, regeneration, different traversal speeds, defenses, etc. There's really no end of inspiration for things like that if you just look at all the crazy stuff animals can do. Current polymorphing is fine for a backup option but it doesn't hold a candle to an actual martial. All that said, even though shifter is probably my next most wanted class, it does seem like one paizo is reluctant to make. Both shifter and evolutionist (not exactly the same thing but some similar themes) came at the end of their respective editions' ends, and neither were very well received as far as I can tell. I think they're wicked, evolutionist is still my favorite starfinder class. My guess is that everyone has their own vision of how their ideal 'monster' should get to work and are disappointed when they can't build the exact thing they were hoping for.
There really are a few class archetypes a summoner could have. I would love to see a martial/caster reversal with the eidolon being the caster and PC being the martial. I would love to see an option that has multiple eidolon you could pick between, one at a time (pseudo pokemon kinda). Synthesist summoner for sure. And honestly just more feats in general to customize the eidolon.
I really hope we get a keynote like usual. I love the big reveals, more info on the impossible playtest final book is mostly what I wish for. Runesmith especially is an awesome concept.
More ways of inflicting misfortune on saves, circumstance penalties on saves, and maybe even buffs to class/spell DC as player options would be cool. They all exist in very limited ways (circumstance penalties only exist to reflex saves in regards to damage afaik) but I would love to see them more prevalent. Earlier impulses that benefit from free action concentration would also be cool. Ignite the sun is great but very high level. Some form of damage by way of reaction would also be nice - volcanic escape is very cool but mostly as a defensive tool. Also, this thread is mostly about damage and talking about kineticist and the fire element, and I think other elements really should have options to be closer in damage potential. Not by much, but closer.
I am on the camp of the rogue vs kineticist damage comparison isn't super fair. I understand why you're making the post, and not denying your actual play experience, but it's hard to imagine a rogue hitting a strong enemy 4 to 5 times every round. It's also not the fairest comparison because using your damage numbers, I doubt theres a martial out there that comes very close to it. That being said, I do think it is crappy that the game doesn't have options to support kineticist more, unless I'm missing some good options. Some spells that buffed kineticist damage (in some way shape or form) would be very welcome. Directly buffing kineticist damage so that it can compete with one of the strongest classes in the game that has the support of their team behind them is a little power creepy.
I feel a rogue should out do a kineticist in single target damage. But even then, a kineticist isn't that far behind, and given all their extra cool stuff a kineticist can do, I feel that for the most part kineticist is in a good place. It might not be as flashy, but when looking at dpr, half damage on a successful save goes a long way. More support for kineticist via interacting with the rest of the system though, that could use some work. I'm not on team 'blasts should work like strikes' but more save penalties/DC bonuses, more teamplay potential with kineticist and other classes would be great, or more itemization.
Not that expanding classes that have weak or limiting options isn't a good thing, but in my opinion more character concepts are the main thing new options should be striving towards. Of course making every thing fun and balanced should also be a main goal, so making new options for weaker classes would also be nice. I would personally love to see some more blanket ways of altering classes. A class archetype that could apply to all full casters that 'gishifies' them would be wicked, giving them an HP bump, raising weapon and armor proficiencies, lowering spell proficiencies and giving bounded casting would be cool to me. Class archetypes like captivator (plz remake soon) but for other subtypes of magic would be awesome. Some form of (adaptive) shifter would be very cool. That's the sort of stuff I'd like, other than just, more kineticist options
One thing I asked for even way back in the playtest, was just a simple kineticist feat, not tied to any element, that does aoe damage of a type you can do with your elemental blast. Basic, no nonsense, no extra effect. I wouldn't want it to deal more damage than any other overflows or anything, but an option to have that just works across any element would be great. 1d8/2 levels, in a cone, line or burst (chosen when you take the feat) of a damage type you can deal with your elemental blast.
How are mono-element builds "Traps"? Is this the weird notion that a single character build should be able to "do everything" Like... like this isn't supposed to be just one member of a team. It's not a trap, but in most cases it's not as good. Having access to a second big ol' feat bucket helps to define your playstyle a lot easier. For instance, if you wanted to try your hand at healing as a kineticist, a single element could make it work with water or wood. But you'd only have a single in combat heal until level six when you get a second. But if you are both a water and wood kineticist, you have 4 healing impulses to choose from at level six (though you can only get all 4 by level 8). Doesnt mean you can't heal as a single element, but if healing is the main thing you want to do dual element is going to have more options. Feels kind of weird to debate this as kineticist is my favorite class, and the problems with it are small, but here I am. I made peace with theorycrafting an earth/metal/fire kineticist for the character I've always dreamed of that had previously, in my head cannon, been solely earth. But I see metal as basically earth, and fire can be flavored as magma (I barely take fire stuff in my build, really just fiery body and elemental resistance).
Kineticists exist in a weird and wonderful space between materials and casters. If you compare the best parts of martials against similar pieces of kineticists (martial strike vs kinetic blast), it will make kineticists look bad. In that same vein, if you compare top level caster spells vs same level damage impulses, that too will make kineticists look bad. The best way to use a kineticist, in my experience, is to mix blasts with area impulses so you don't have to worry about MAP like most martials do, and you might get a couple enemies instead of just one. The class is going to click for some people, but for some it never will. If you think that a martial longbow user out damaging a kineticist at range is unfair, well, that's just the way it is. A martial archer doesn't have all the other cool stuff kineticists do, like their blast being able to switch between range, melee, damage types, and a bunch of traits if you take weapon infusion, all while not taking up your hand. A kineticist also has plenty of thematic options that are (imo) extremely cool. As far as fire options being unfavorable in some situations, yeah that's a downfall of fire as an element. It does (especially at high levels) the most damage by far of the elements, but it's all fire damage. That's by design. If you don't like it, it's not very hard to branch out to another element and take, say, tremor. Personally I'm playing a kineticist whose not damage focused (water/wood/air) and with just elemental blast and tidal hands/lightning dash, I do very respectable damage when I want to.
While I think wizards could use a boost, I really don't think the power spike that runelord gave is the way to do it.
Just to add my two credits (is a credit a cent? Idk) I really hope we get vanguard and especially evolutionist asap. Evolutionist didn't get much time to be expanded in 1e and maybe wasn't received super well (I loved it so, so much) and I hope it comes quick and early to 2e. The other main thing I hope comes early is as many options as possible for augments and ways to install weapons in your character (ie gun arms, integrated trait in 1e).
I understand the move away from a gishy necromancer, but osteo armaments is one of my favorite feats ever. Having a scaling, disposable weapon you can create with an action is extremely cool and I really hope it finds a home somewhere. It is what I hoped for in things like mindsmith, soulforger, etc.
I say this in every thread like this that comes up, but a kind of body modification book would be great. Paizo has been knocking it out of the park with the more focused caster (or at least casterish) classes like psychic, necromancer, and kineticist if it qualifies as such. To me, a transmutation/polymorph specialist makes perfect sense to be made at some point soon. Throw in more prosthetics, mutagens, tattoos, etc and it's plenty of content to fill a book and be awesome. I would also take anything that gets us more kineticist impulses, hopefully for existing elements, but I don't really have a whole book idea for that to fit in.
I feel kineticist power level is mostly in line with most of the game considering the at will nature of the class. The stronger damage options (~1d10 per level impulses) are around the power level of a spell 2 levels lower than a characters current rank. Ish. More of those options across the board would be welcome. I also think that since so much of the caster discourse seems to take into account being able to target multiple defenses of an opponent, some impulses should get variety in targeting different defenses as well. Not that every element should be able to target ref/fort/will and AC, but having strong options for at least two of them is fair, I think.
I imagine (/hope?) we'll get a good chunk of variety in the jotunborn heritages to represent many takes on a giant ancestry. Who knows though, maybe they will be only slight variations on what we see, for the record I love the way they look from all the art in the article.
Definitely hope for more impulses. I understand that each element is supposed to have its strengths and weaknesses, but some more variety for each element would help. Water would appreciate a damage impulse or two that isn't dependent on a reflex save. Sooo many early game monsters have high reflex and it sucks. Something that targets fortitude (maybe that deals cold damage? Makes sense to me, some sort of cold snap) or even an attack roll would help a lot. Otherwise water is probably the most balanced element? I have seen people wanting to be more of a cryomancer than hydromancer so maybe more cold impulses than water. Wood is also in a pretty good spot. A decent damage option or two to deal with creatures that don't bleed would be nice, since hail of splinters and sanguivolent roots are the best damage options for kineticist. Support wise I think wood is pretty good, maybe if protector tree gets a cool down there might be room for more good support impulses but as it is the element is very strong support wise, imo. Air has a ton of good utility, again just needs some variety in their damage options, anything but reflex saves. I've seen that people want more electricity options, maybe a 1st level damage option there and a utility option or two? Otherwise wind only has a single damage option in boomerang so could use a couple more. Metal is probably my favorite element. Damage wise they can target reflex, fort and AC with impulses that scale well, they have good defensive options, and some control. A lot of their power does come in later in the game, so spicing up their early options would be nice (maybe their armor doesn't break plz?). Fire is great at what it does. More damage types for it's impulses would be great though, even if they don't benefit from the impulse junction or aura. Just for those times you can't get around a fire immunity. Something like a pure bludgeoning explosion. Earth is thematically my favorite element but maybe my least favorite mechanically. Only three damaging impulses really, tremor can only be used on the ground against grounded enemies (I've always hated tremor like earth abilities, how is shaking ground supposed to hurt, short of a building collapsing), and all of them are overflow. A reliable set of impulses that can be used anywhere, with competitive damage, would be great.
Very cool to get an answer, no matter how we get it imo. Thank you, Maya. Man I'm so worried about you already haha, people are going to be hounding you non stop I think. But I love your vibe so far!
Just wanted to say that I really, really hope osteo armaments makes the cut into the final game. It's exactly what I've wanted for options like mind smith. Not only do I hope it stays in the game, but that this kind of feat (easier access to backup weapons) becomes the norm. It's not going to be superior to a fully runed up weapon, but when it comes up you'll be so happy you have the option to create a new weapon right then and there.
It's a slippery slope for developers to start answering questions, I don't blame them in the least for not being active. Answering one question (especially in a text format where meaning doesn't always go through perfectly) can lead to the same tantrum throwers wanting further explanation or just outrage at the answer. The mindset of throwing tantrums every time you can't get an answer to a specific question is crazy to me, especially when it's directed at the people who make the game we love. We've already had developers quit (I don't know for sure but being underpaid and overworked is probably part of why), adding extra workload and stress to the equation is a formula for a revolving door of developers. I hope people take it easy on Maya too. If they do answer a question or two, floodgates are going to open and they might get hounded by people non-stop.
Personally I hope not, I might be in the vocal minority (that's not a thing) but I like kineticist the way it is. Changing kinetic blasts to act as strikes or other impulses to act as spells would be messy in the way it interacts with other feats. I'm glad we haven't gotten any promises to that effect, sounds like just wishful thinking from people as of now.
I probably shouldn't open this can of worms but you keep mentioning this kineticist errata. What errata are you expecting? As far as I know, there isn't really anything that needs errata
I definitely understand (and like) the class as it is now, with different traditions mixed with runes. But yeah I can't help but feel like arcane needs it, needs more niches. And as others have noted, previous rune stuff has arcanes fingerprints all over it.
I didn't even think about runelords, that's another really good point.
Anyone else get the feeling the damage scaling is supposed to be every 2 spell ranks, not levels? Like there was maybe some mixup when developing the class. Honestly each rune doing 10d6 at level 20 seems sort of okay, to me
So immediately getting into the class (which is wicked) I was picturing a tattoo laden runesmith. But upon reading some of the feats, there are some issues. It might be intended, but there's no action compression feats for unarmed. It might be intentional, but I would love some kind of compression there. Also there are a few things that are specific to weapons that probably shouldn't be. Runic optimization specifies it only works with weapons (the main reason for this post, really), and elemental revision only works on an unattended item or held by a willing creature, not worn like hand wraps.
I was thinking the other day about a body modification style book. Would be right up my alley. Some brainstorm ideas; Class - shifter (with subclasses for beasts, mutant, and machine stuff) Class archetypes - prosthetic innovation inventor, synthesist summoner Archetypes - mutagenist, polymorph/morph archetype (a là captivator), graftcrafter, mutant, tattoo master, experimental pet (comes with aberration pet subject) Pets - mutants and aberrations Items - grafts, mutagens, tattoos, nectografts, elemental grafts, prosthetics,
I didn't have a lot of interest in shifter until I saw the adaptive shifter archetype in 1e. I hope, if we do get shifter, that we get something closer to morphs like that then full battle forms.
Damn, all of these sound wicked. I'm especially happy for my good friend who's favorite 1e class is Inquisitor, both the vindicator and avenger sound right up his alley. And bloodrager sounds perfect; can cast spells while raging and get to add damage to them?! Sign me up. Would anyone remind me (if it's been teased already) what other class archetypes are to come in this book?
I feel like there are a ton of people taking remaster to mean a PC/PC2 style rework of the book. Those people are going to be disappointed I think. I hope people aren't upset when it comes out and few things changed.
Main thing I hope for for inventor is to be able to change the material your innovation is. For an inventory to not be able to make their weapon adamantium is so silly to me, for example.
I do hope that there's a clarification on deadly working with bestial mutagen. Raw you still need hand wraps to increase the number of extra damage dice you deal on a crit since it's dependent on striking runes.
A big part of why people want pc3 is because paizo has done such a good job not only with adapting classes for the remaster, but touching up classes to make them more enjoyable to play. In my mind, that is why people want pc3. Lots of people have their favorite class not in the core/core 2 list, and the idea that the issues they have with their class could possibly be fixed (or they just straight up get new toys) is a big reason to want them updated.
Intercept strike getting a bit of movement was my biggest hope! That's awesome. Very excited for the final version! Thanks you Jason
I could see shifter as a mix between the build a bear-ness of an eidolon and the branching out and picking of themes (and ideally at will-ness) of kineticist. A shifter could pick the type of creature they can change their body into, then at later levels add in more creature types. At the beginning of the game you might pick aberration and be able to grow tentacles or turn into ooze, then at level 5 or what have you, you branch out into angels and can grow wings or a halo. Just full on chimera in the craziest ways.
While I would love the geniekin consolidated into one versatile heritage, talos and ardande being published in RoE makes that a little wonky since RoE is ORC ready already. Otherwise I would love a single heritage for them all. Personally I would like to eventually have most major types of creatures depicted with an ancestry and a versatile heritage. Animal - Awakened animal for ancestry, beastkin for heritage. Plant - leshy, conrasu, ghoran for ancestry, maybe an argument could be make for ardande for heritage but I think it could use its own. Undead - Skele (and a bunch of options from book of the dead but not sure where to put those) for ancestry and dhampir for heritage. Elemental - I would love a straight up elemental ancestry, and we have all the geniekin for heritages. Dragon - A dragon ancestry would be cool (an official, 1st party), and we have dragon blood heritage on the way. Divine - I'm not super sure if we have a pure divine ancestry really? Maybe something upcoming, not sure. But we have nephilim for heritage, as well as ghanzi, aphorite, and duskwalker. Giant - Now that large ancestries are a thing, yeah it would be cool to have both an ancestry and heritage for this category. Aberration - Fleshwarps for ancestry, and count me in for wanting a heritage for Fleshwarp as well. Construct - Android, automaton, and poppet for ancestries. I kind of feel like android would have been better as a heritage but oh well, yeah we need a heritage here. Fey - Gnomes and sprites for ancestry, no real heritages. Shadow - we have kayal, but would be cool to have a shadow heritage. I feel like that's most of them, though arguments could be made for other creature types. But those are my main hopes.
I think most who want pc3 want it because every class will always have (at least) small nitpicky things people want fixed. Some people may hope for a way to avoid reactive strike on spell strike, a way to have your inventor innovation be made of a precious metal, or a touch up to fey eidolons (maybe even synthesist summoner). I don't know what I'm talking about with this point but I imagine there are some benefits to having all classes under the orc licence as well.
After my lukewarm reception of the APG classes, I dont fancy the idea of play testing more than two classes at a time after the release of the core book. That could have just been conservative design but I'd rather be on the safe side bc fewer classes in a book should mean less rush and more work hours on those classes. That's a very good point. I do like to think that the devs have learned a lot since the apg playtest and that doing 6 classes at once is doable (I mean they're doing it with core, in *addition* to a ton of other rules to figure out), but yeah you are right that doing a couple classes at a time is much safer. It is hard to be patient when none of your favorite sf classes made it into core, and releases beyond that are sooo far away T.T
A little boring, but I would love a 'player core 2' for starfinder. Get the most wanted starfinder 1e stuff done, and then go hog wild with new options after. PC 2 could have another 6 classes (mechanic, technomancer, biohacker, vanguard, nanocyte, evolutionist) which doesn't seem too crazy. I also think only 6 classes for core might get old fast, even if they're designed well. Also I really love vanguard and evolutionist so am biased
Hey, folks! We missed adding a couple of items to the FAQ page initially that should be in there now. Didn't realize it until seeing some of the responses like "Rain of Rust still doesn't have a duration?" Adding errata is a complex process involving changing and tracking text across multiple internal tools and I missed a step on these two items! We've now updated the Rage of Elements FAQ section with entries for Winter Sleet (page 32) and Rain of Rust (page 36). Oooh I really like the winter sleet change. I never felt like picking it up before just cause of the extra rolling and fiddlyness, now it looks super usable and fun. Thanks team!
Yessss. I know you have all been working super hard lately pumping out content, so thank you for managing to get this done. Especially happy about some of the kineticist errata! Stance being taken out of rebirth in living stone is awesome (and what I assumed was supposed to happen!), the scaling on conductive sphere is unexpected and awesome, and we have ranges and areas on all impulses! My one and only (unrealistic probably) hope left is to get a faq that tremor can be used even on aerial enemies (actually everything in a 10ft burst) and not only on grounded enemies, especially is the damage is confirmed to be d8 scaling and not d10. Even then it's not a big deal (maybe the intention is for enemies to be on solid earth) but again that's just my hope.
I was also hoping for some sort of built in armor feat (or even graft) but I definitely understand that you can't fit every cool animal thing into a single ancestry.
Be careful what you wish for. Some may want a pf3e, thinking it will fix everything they want fixed. It could easily (in my mind, likely) not go the way those people want it to go. Ttrpgs are getting less crunchy and more gm fiat, narrative type games. I don't think the next Pathfinder edition would go full narrative style but I do think it would mean more that way.
Some have! Shipping has begun
Count me in the 'taunt should be optional and not a class defining feature' camp. I do see the value of taunt (still think it's not amazing) but it is, imo, not a tool that makes the class stand out as it should. My reasons for making taunt an optional feature (most of these have been said in this thread, just summarized): - It's not something that should be used often. Guardian really doesn't have that many base class features that make it stand out especially at early levels. - Taunt being a base feature is going to raise the skill floor of the class by a lot. Many veteran players may like that and consider non core classes should be harder to play, but I think it's unnecessary. It will likely end up with players playing the class 'wrong' and getting frustrated. - The class is already pretty one dimensional with not too many build variations; one main option to have an extra effect from taunt (threat technique), when taunt is already seldom used, feels bad. - I have yet to see anyone say that intercept strike feels against the class fantasy. On the other hand there are definitely some (not a huge amount but some) that dislike the flavour of taunt. - Personally I don't see a reason other classes shouldn't be able to get their hands on taunt through feats. It's really not that good of an ability that it can't be a feat, imo. - Lastly I would want something else. The class feels like it's missing a lot. I feel there's not enough choice or build variation on this class compared to others. Not every class needs a subclass but there has to be variation between builds. A class feature, that comes up often, that fundamentally changes playstyle would be very welcome in my eyes. The class also needs more survivability in my opinion.
Not that it matters all that much, I'm just excited, but has anyone gotten their authorization email yet?
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