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Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Blacksburg 9 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 20 Organized Play characters.


I have a question based around a FAQ post, as well as the Advanced Weapon Training (AWT) feat in the Weapon Master's Handbook.

First, the relevant FAQ:

From the FAQ::

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.

Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.

The second relevant part is the Fighter Brawler archetype, which replaces Weapon Training 1 and 2 with:

Close Combatant:

Close Combatant (Ex): At 3rd level, a brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +3 bonus on damage rolls with weapons in the close weapon group. Both of these bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of +5 on attack rolls and +7 on damage rolls at 19th level). This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 2.

The Advanced Weapon Training Feat requires Fighter Weapon Training as a prerequisite and from reading the FAQ and looking at the wording on the brawler archetype ability it looks like Close Combatant would qualify. Regardless, I wanted to get another opinion on if it would.

Looking through the amulet of spirits item for shamans which boosts your effective level for spirits powers, I was unsure whether this meant that you would get early access to greater and true spirit abilities for the amulet you are wearing.

Relevant text from the spirit ability:


Spirit (Su): A shaman forms a mystical bond with the spirits of the world. She forms a lasting bond with a single spirit (see Spirits on page 37), which grants a number of abilities and defines many of her other class features.

At 1st level, a shaman gains the spirit ability granted by her chosen spirit. She adds the spells granted by that spirit to the list of spells that she can cast using spirit magic. She also adds the hexes possessed by that spirit to the list of hexes that she can use with the hex and wandering hex class features.

At 8th level, the shaman gains the abilities listed in the greater version of her selected spirit. At 16th level, the shaman gains the abilities listed for the true version of her selected spirit.

Relevent text from Amulet of Spirits:

If a creature that already has the associated mystery or spirit wears the amulet, that wearer does not gain the abilities listed below; instead, the effective level of her mystery or spirit powers increases by 2.

When I'm GMing I'm usually really lenient with 3rd party stuff (since with a quick look over you usually can tell whether or not it's going to unbalance a game). The main concern for this dragon class for me are twofold:

1) Would it be overpowered and make the other group members feel like they aren't necessary? (I don't think so. I think at the moment it might actually be a bit weak with some of the limitations/stats I placed on it. Also, depending on what kind of dragon you choose, you can get a few fairly useless class features. I've tried to start with it being weaker because it's usually either to buff than nerf.)

2) Would it function and play like you would expect a dragon to function and play? I.E. Playing a dragon disciple doesn't really feel like playing a dragon, it feels like playing a human that wants to be a dragon (Which, it pretty much is, but I think you know what I mean).

Ok, thank you!

Also, I had added/changed things to accomodate for Dragon's having less magic item slots, though I have yet to look through and figure out which magic item slots they have. ITCOD does have a pretty good list for Dragon based magic item slots.

The group I typically play with is much more concerned about things like size increases and early access to flight as there is very little 3rd party or homebrew going on in our games, so this was made with the thoughts that it would be adventuring with other PCs like a human fighter or a catfolk bard without being overpowered.

I liked some of what they did, but I had issues with parts of it. I liked the amount of choices that they put into it, giving you different options.

Some of my problems with it (from a balance perspective) were:
-Very early access to unlimited flight (level 4)
-Early permanent size increases (Becoming large at level 8, huge at 12, etc)
-Full BAB, D12 Hitdice, and All good saves. I know that these are dragon traits, but it doesn't seem right for a PC to have all three of those
-If my understanding is correct, you start with an X-point buy, then get several stat increases as you level. It seems like there would be a good bit of stat inflation.

That being said, I liked the way that they approached the Draconic Weaponry/Defense/Gift as a way of giving you options as you level up. The compulsions are also an interesting faucet.

I've been periodically working on a combination race/class for playing in Pathfinder that is basically playing a dragon. The problem with using any existing rules for playing a dragon in Pathfinder is that they don't really work, and I haven't seen a third party option that I liked or felt was balanced.

I've linked to what I have so far and I am curious if I can get some feedback as to the balance/feel of the class. There's still several things that I am leery about (such as the breath weapon being too powerful for a class feature). The goal was to keep the feel of playing a dragon while still having it be balanced for being a PC in a party.


Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Blacksburg aka FingersCrossed

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I can understand the ban. The archetype doesn't make a lot of sense for being a member of the Pathfinder Society, but I had a lot of fun putting ranks in Profession (Scribe) and Linguistics, making my picture books and trying to figure out how angry words looked.

Oh well. I guess someone (Probably Kreighton Shaine, he hates picture books) is going to strap him into a chair and force him to learn how to read.

Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Blacksburg aka FingersCrossed

I was looking at the additional resources page and noticed that the True Primitive archetype has been banned in PFS. I've been trying to find where it was said it was banned, and also how characters who already have levels in True Primitive are handled.

If you have levels in True Primitive, are you grandfathered into the campaign and allowed to keep your archetype?

Do you have to retrain to a basic barbarian?

This was probably discussed or mentioned somewhere already, but I have been searching and can't find it.

Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Blacksburg aka FingersCrossed

Can you run an AP in Campaign mode, and then have the players apply the credit to Core Campaign characters? Or would you need to play Core Campaign in the AP to apply the credit as Core Campaign credit?

Ninja Edit: And do you still get favoured class bonuses? I would assume not since those aren't in the core if I recall.