Fighter Brawler archetype and Advanced Weapon Training Feat

[FingersCrossed]

I have a question based around a FAQ post, as well as the Advanced Weapon Training (AWT) feat in the Weapon Master's Handbook.

First, the relevant FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qto

From the FAQ::

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.

Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.

The second relevant part is the Fighter Brawler archetype, which replaces Weapon Training 1 and 2 with:

Close Combatant:

Close Combatant (Ex): At 3rd level, a brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +3 bonus on damage rolls with weapons in the close weapon group. Both of these bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of +5 on attack rolls and +7 on damage rolls at 19th level). This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 2.

The Advanced Weapon Training Feat requires Fighter Weapon Training as a prerequisite and from reading the FAQ and looking at the wording on the brawler archetype ability it looks like Close Combatant would qualify. Regardless, I wanted to get another opinion on if it would.

[voideternal]

Hrm..

Dragoon, Spear Training:

Spear Training (Ex): At 5th level, a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon's weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level). The dragoon does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level.

Archer, Expert Archer:

Expert Archer (Ex): At 5th level, an archer gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with bows. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.

Brawler, Close Combatant:

Close Combatant (Ex): At 3rd level, a brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +3 bonus on damage rolls with weapons in the close weapon group. Both of these bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of +5 on attack rolls and +7 on damage rolls at 19th level). This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 2.

Close Combatant references weapon groups, but doesn't directly reference Weapon Training. It doesn't say "... this works like Weapon Training" and also the way it's worded, it doesn't ask you to make a choice about Weapon Training. Thus, I think Close Combatant does not count as Weapon Training for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

Just my opinion.

Edit: Looking through various Fighter archetypes, I'm seeing very few that directly reference Weapon Training. Kind of sad, seeing that Advanced Weapon Training is so cool.

[Deadmanwalking]

voideternal is correct. Close Combatant doesn't say it counts as weapon training and in fact doesn't even do the same thing mechanically. It's a different ability and does not count as the same for prerequisite purposes...such as allowing Advanced Weapon Training.

[Arachnofiend]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

voideternal is correct. Close Combatant doesn't say it counts as weapon training and in fact doesn't even do the same thing mechanically. It's a different ability and does not count as the same for prerequisite purposes...such as allowing Advanced Weapon Training.

Very true and very lame... Kind of an arbitrary nerf to the Brawler Fighter.

[Deadmanwalking]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Very true and very lame... Kind of an arbitrary nerf to the Brawler Fighter.

Eh. It's been suboptimal ever since they've existed since they came after Gloves of Dueling were a thing. Weapon Training has always been a very solid raw numbers advantage in offense, and losing it has always been bad.

And what could they do? You wanna give Fighters cool stuff without messing with the chassis, you've pretty much gotta have it modify the chassis's base elements, and there are only three there (Weapon Training, Armor Training, and Bravery) and Advanced Armor Training is coming soon.

That doesn't help the Brawler Fighter specifically, but really, there's a whole Class to do that thematic archetype now.

[Chengar Qordath]

Yeah, pretty much the only thing they could've done to salvage a lot of the fighter archetypes that replace Weapon Training with a narrower version of the same thing would be if they added something along the lines of "This ability counts as Weapon Training for any feat or ability that requires or modifies Weapon Training." And while that would be nice, it would also open up some other potentially messy rules issues, not to mention making all the specialized archetypes much better.

[graystone]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Very true and very lame... Kind of an arbitrary nerf to the Brawler Fighter.

Eh. It's been suboptimal ever since they've existed since they came after Gloves of Dueling were a thing. Weapon Training has always been a very solid raw numbers advantage in offense, and losing it has always been bad.

And what could they do? You wanna give Fighters cool stuff without messing with the chassis, you've pretty much gotta have it modify the chassis's base elements, and there are only three there (Weapon Training, Armor Training, and Bravery) and Advanced Armor Training is coming soon.

They didn't have an issue doing it with unchained rogue. Trap Sense vs Danger Sense. Danger Sense is a straight upgrade with "This ability counts as trap sense".

Chengar Qordath: I'd be fine with "all the specialized archetypes much better" as opposed to only some when the only real difference is whether or not they happened to add a 'it acts like Weapon Training' line as opposed to just making it works like it..

[Deadmanwalking]

graystone wrote:

They didn't have an issue doing it with unchained rogue. Trap Sense vs Danger Sense. Danger Sense is a straight upgrade with "This ability counts as trap sense".

Sure, but that would involve changing the wording of the actual archetypes. You can't have an ability that says 'You can trade Weapon Training or anything sorta like it for this.' That...really just doesn't work at all.

graystone wrote:

Chengar Qordath: I'd be fine with "all the specialized archetypes much better" as opposed to only some when the only real difference is whether or not they happened to add a 'it acts like Weapon Training' line as opposed to just making it works like it..

You'll note that they don't do archetypes with 'weapon training but not' any more.

[fretgod99]

I hate that FAQ. There are a few archetypes that change how Weapon Training works for that archetype pretty significantly. Others really don't at all. Spear Training for the Dragoon is just Weapon Training but with a better damage component (because you give up being able to get Weapon Training with other groups and Weapon Training 2, 3, & 4 are traded out later). Close Combatant does nearly the same thing (Weapon Training 3 & 4 are traded out later).

So the difference between Spear Training and Close Combatant in regards to counting as Weapon Training is literally that one says "You must select Weapon Training" with X group and the other does the same thing by implication.

The abilities function the same way. They do the same thing for a specific weapon group. They require you to select that specific weapon group. But somehow, one doesn't count because it doesn't state the obvious. The ability would be absolutely no different had it been described, "You must select Weapon Training with the Close weapon group". I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do that because this ability replaces Weapon Training 1 & 2 (so they needed to mention that) and Spear Training only replaces (effectively) Weapon Training 1.

Despite that, the FAQ is clear: Close Combatant does not count as Weapon Training. I find it to be ridiculous, but those are the rules.

[graystone]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

graystone wrote:

They didn't have an issue doing it with unchained rogue. Trap Sense vs Danger Sense. Danger Sense is a straight upgrade with "This ability counts as trap sense".

Sure, but that would involve changing the wording of the actual archetypes. You can't have an ability that says 'You can trade Weapon Training or anything sorta like it for this.' That...really just doesn't work at all.

graystone wrote:

Chengar Qordath: I'd be fine with "all the specialized archetypes much better" as opposed to only some when the only real difference is whether or not they happened to add a 'it acts like Weapon Training' line as opposed to just making it works like it..

You'll note that they don't do archetypes with 'weapon training but not' any more.

They don't have to change the wording of the archetypes, they could just write a sensible FAQ revision. As fretgod99 points out, some abilities are clearly a modified weapon training but happen to lack the correct wording. These could be easily added to an FAQ even if for some reason that couldn't be correctly fixed in the archetype.

As for "You can't have an ability that says 'You can trade Weapon Training or anything sorta like it for this.' That...really just doesn't work at all": How hard is a list of archetypes in the FAQ? These archetypes abilities count as weapon training. Clears up the "anything sorta like it for this" without confusion of what that means.