Erravan's page

Ask again in about 4 months when the book comes out.

I'm using the playtest version in a campaign right now So I would like peoples input on it now based on the playtest and then when the final version comes out if it is more clear then I can revise my character.

If a Magus uses Spell Strike to embue a melee attack with Magic Missile do all of the missiles have to hit the target of the melee strike or is the Magus still able to choose who each missile hits?

Thanks for the advice everyone. You gave me some really good stuff to work with and I appreciate it.

I'm hoping to find a class that can enhance my claws as I level up so that they continue to be effective. Would fighter or rogue have options to keep my claws viable through the majority of a campaign, or would my claws quickly get left behind by weapons?

Unfortunately no. There is no mechanics that lets you existing unarmed attacks synergies with other unarmed attacks.
When i just got PF2e, i had and idea of making monk specialized in polymorph - that was totally ruined when i found out battle forms just doesn't synergies with monks at all.
Unarmed attacks just replaces each other, and not synergies together at all.

Darn, I was hoping to find a class that would enhance my claw attacks rather than completely overriding them.

I want to play a catfolk character that focuses on claw attacks and thought the monk class would be a good fit, but I'm not sure how or if the monk stances would interact with the claws. Since the stances damage is based on normal unarmed strikes that do 1d4 damage what would happen if I used a stance with the catfolk's claws which do 1d6 damage? Would that mean because the claws are one damage increment higher than fists that the stances damage would be one increment higher as well, or would the stances damage be unaffected. If it is unaffected would playing a clawed catfolk monk be any different than playing any other ancestry, or would the claws just be relegated to flavor rather than being an actual benefit?

Ciaran, the +50% carrying capacity looks reasonable off-hand, but is the +4 bonus actually on CMB for or on CMD vs. trips & overruns? The Race Builder makes the latter quite easy to justify, but the former not at all. And while you could go with a CMB bonus for bull rush & overrun attempts, I don't see it for this race.

{Added: Maybe it's just that I don't often see bull rush or overrun attempts in my usual group, so I don't think Relentless is worth 1 RP for a limited circ like being in quadruped stance.}

ARG under Racial Traits wrote:

Stability (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race receive a +4 racial bonus to their CMD when resisting bull rush or trip attempts while standing on the ground.

[...]
Kneecapper (1 RP): Prerequisite: Small; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +4 racial bonus on combat maneuver checks to trip an opponent.
[...]
Relentless (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to bull rush or overrun an opponent. This bonus only applies while both the member of this race and its opponent are standing on the ground.
[...]
Quadruped (2 RP): Prerequisites: Any type except humanoid, Large size, normal speed; Benefit: Members of this race possess four legs and two arms, granting them a +4 racial bonus to CMD against trip attempts and a +10 foot bonus to their base speed. In addition, members of this race use weapons and armor as if they were Medium (instead of Large). Special: The number of legs

...

I'm pretty sure the +4 is for CMD it is a lot harder to trip a four legged animal than a two legged person. They have more limbs to catch themselves with, but it doesn't make it any easier for them to trip something else.

If you're trying to balance the race with other standard PCs races, it's still too strong.

Scrap Catfolk Exemplar. You're basically gaming system so you can buff the damage dice of cat claws. Don't do that.

Scrap Improved Initiative. This is a very useful feat and doesn't feel vital to the concept at all. Remember that your scope is limited with a PC race. You can't afford tacked on power like this.

I see what you're doing with feral stance. It's a neat idea, but I think you make it too complicated - especially when you had to change a bunch of feats for it. There are monsters, like festrog, that have a similar ability called four-footed run. However, this is still fairly powerful ability. If you implement it, I'd recommend removing Sprinter.

Overall, I recommend the following class features for the race:
- cat claws
- +1 natural armor
- silent hunter
- low-light vision
- four-footed run: A catfolk can run on all fours at a speed of 40 feet if she doesn't hold or carry anything in her hands. When running on all fours, she is treated as having the Run feat.
- cat's luck

I wouldn't push it more than this because it's already stronger than the standard catfolk.

Yeah, I started basing some of the traits on tigers which have improved initiative​. That's why I added it, but I could definitely​ drop that as well as catfolk exemplar. Four-footed Run is interesting, but I don't like the idea of dropping​ sprinter. Normal catfolk do have sprinter and you have to have it in order to get Claw Pounce later on and that is a pretty important feat if you want to focus on natural attacks. I could drop Fast though.

UPDATED
Here is an update based on some of the feedback I have received so far. I have dropped the limit on proficiencies and instead implemented a stance trait that will affect weapon use. I have pruned down and made changes to the racial traits as well. I have based the default racial traits on the hunting styles of big cats like tigers, but if a player wants their character to be from a tribe that descends more from cats like leopards there are alternate racial traits to reflect that hunting style as well. I also added a list of racial feats.

Feral Catfolk (15 RP)

Humanoid (0rp)
catfolk subtype (0rp)
medium size (0rp)
normal speed (0rp)
Specialized (1rp) +2 str +2 dex -2 int
Languages: catfolk, high int: common, elven, sylvan, Gnoll

Racial traits:
Feral Stance (N/A RP): Once per round as an (undecided) action a Feral Catfolk can change his stance between Bipedal and Quadrupedal. Some racial traits and feats can only be used in Quadrupedal stance. Weapons (excluding claw blades) can only be wielded in Bipedal stance, they must either be dropped or sheathed before switching to Quadrupedal Stance.
Note: What type of action (standard, move, swift, free, etc) do you guys think this should be? Should it provoke attacks of opportunity?

*Cat's Luck (1 RP): Prerequisite: The race has at least a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity; Benefit: Members of this race gain the following extraordinary ability: Once per day, when a member of this race makes a Reflex saving throw, it can roll the saving throw twice and take the better result. It must decide to use this ability before attempting the saving throw.

*Natural Armor (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +1 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class.

*Static Bonus Feat (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Choose one feat with no prerequisites. All members of this race gain this feat as a bonus feat at 1st level: Catfolk Exemplar.

*Silent Hunter (2 RP): Prerequisites: Quadrupedal Stance; Benefit: Members of this race reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number includes the penalty reduction from this trait).

*Sprinter (1 RP): Prerequisite: Normal speed, Quadrupedal Stance; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +10 foot racial bonus to their speed when using the charge, run, or withdraw actions.

*Cat's Claws (2rp): Some catfolk have stronger and more developed claws than other members of their race, and can use them to make attacks. Catfolk with this racial trait have a pair of claws they can use as natural weapons. These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage.

*Low-Light Vision (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race can see twice as far as a race with normal vision in conditions of dim light.

*Quick Reactions (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race receive Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.

*Fast (1 RP): Prerequisite: Normal speed, Quadrupedal stance; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +10 foot bonus to their base speed. Special: This trait can be taken more than once, but each time it is, the cost increases by 1 RP. Its effects stack.

Alternate racial traits:
Improved Natural Armor (1 RP): Prerequisite: Natural armor racial trait; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +1 natural armor bonus. Special: This racial trait can be taken multiple times. Each additional time you take this trait, increase its cost by 1 RP. Its effects stack. Replaces Fast, if taken a second time also replaces Quick Reactions.

Scent (4 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race gain the scent ability. Replaces Quick reactions and Natural Armor.

Lucky, Lesser (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. Replaces Cat’s Luck and Fast.

Camouflage (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Choose a ranger favored terrain type. Members of this race gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks while within that terrain type. Replaces Cat’s Luck.

Climb (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race have a climb speed of 20 feet, and gain the +8 racial bonus on Climb checks that a climb speed normally grants. Replaces Sprinter and Fast.

Jumper (2 RP): Prerequisite: The race has at least a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity, Quadrupedal; Benefit: Members of this race are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks. Replaces Silent Hunter.

Racial Feats
Feral Catfolk have access to the following feats.

Black Cat
Bad luck befalls those who dare to cross you.
Prerequisite: Catfolk
Benefit: Once per day as an immediate action, when you are hit by a melee attack, you can force the opponent who made the attack to reroll it with a –4 penalty. The opponent must take the result of the second attack roll. This is a supernatural ability.
Special: If you take this feat and don't already have all black fur, your fur turns completely black when you take this feat.

Catfolk Exemplar
Your feline traits are more defined and prominent than those of other members of your race.
Prerequisite: Catfolk.
Benefit: You can take the Aspect of the Beast feat even if you do not meet the normal prerequisites. Furthermore, your catlike nature manifests in one of the following ways. You choose the manifestation when you take this feat, and cannot change it later.
Enhanced Senses (Ex): If you have low-light vision, you gain the scent catfolk racial trait. If you have the scent racial trait, you gain low-light vision.
Fast Sprinter (Ex): You gain a 10-foot racial bonus to your speed when using the charge, run, or withdraw actions. If you have the sprinter racial trait, your racial bonus to speed when using the charge, run, or withdraw action increases to a 20-foot bonus.
Sharp Claws (Ex): If you do not have the cat's claws racial trait or the claws of the beast manifestation from the Aspect of the Beast feat , you gain the cat's claws racial trait. If you have either the cat's claws racial trait or the claws of the beast manifestation, your claw damage increases to 1d6.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, you must choose a different manifestation.

Claw Pounce (Combat)
You can charge and make an attack with your paws.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Dex 15, Nimble Striker, base attack bonus +10, catfolk, cat's claws racial trait or Aspect of the Beast (claws of the beast manifestation), Quadrupedal Stance.
Benefit: When you make a charge, you can make a full attack with your claws.
Normal: Charging is a special full-round action that limits you to a single attack.

Feline Grace
Your innate grace allows you to get out of the stickiest situations.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, catfolk, Quadrupedal Stance.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to your CMD against bull rush, grapple, overrun, repositioning, and trip combat maneuvers.

Nimble Striker (Combat)
You were born to charge your enemies and nobody does it better.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1, catfolk, sprinter racial trait, Quadrupedal Stance.
Benefit: You do not take a –2 penalty to AC when you use the Cleave feat, Lunge feat, or when you charge.

Fanged
Prerequisites: Feral Catfolk, BAB at least +6
Benefit: Gain a 1d4 bite natural attack.

Rake
Prerequisites: Feral Catfolk, Claw Pounce, Quadrupedal Stance
You gain the Rake special attack.

What do you guys think? Do you like the changes? Anything you liked better before? Things I could still improve? Is there anything you think should or should not be tied to Quadrupedal Stance that would be different than What I have? What type of action should changing your stance be? Anything else you see fit to comment on?

They aren't worthless. They take GP investment just like manufactured weapon.

OK maybe I exaggerated a little by calling them worthless, but it is a lot harder to keep them relevant than with manufactured weapons so most of the time they end up getting left behind.

If the race doesn't restrict proficiencies, then I'm confused why your race description says "Only proficient in claw blades and light armor." Player characters get armor and weapon proficiencies from classes, not races. A race should generally not give proficiencies unless they have a racial trait like weapon familiarity.

You need to keep in mind that standard PC races are generally limited in how much they can give a character because their scope needs stay within line of other races and the abilities need to be appropriate for a 1st level character to have. Natural attacks should be taken with care because they're strongest at low levels. This race gets three natural attacks at a level where most characters can only attack once per round. This is why other races usually have no more than claws.

I really only meant that they wouldn't start with proficiencies, but that they could gain them later through feats like you would with exotic weapons. It was only meant to encourage the use of natural attacks, but I see now that this was a bad idea and I am planning to drop the whole proficiency thing.

I realize that natural attacks are more effective at lower levels, but generally when you get to higher levels they become worthless. There are feats that can make them better, but in order to stay relevant through the entire campaign you would have to take more feats than are usually available to you. That is why I started making this race, so that you could keep your natural attacks relevant at high levels without having to use quite so many feats. You do bring up a good point though that starting with three natural attacks might be to much. If you have any advice on how to get to that point more gradually, but not too gradually and without using too many feats I would love to hear it.

If they're so xenophobic and feral, I'd give them a penalty to Int, not Wis. They just don't go much for education.

You spent 5 RP for +3 AC -- is it worth it? Well, since you want these folk to be too uncomfy to wear Medium or Heavy armor, I suppose it might be. I'm also skeptical about limiting proficiency in the race description, however, unless it would be based on physical abilities. A serpentine race without limbs might reasonably be banned from weapon proficiencies, or even armor proficiencies given that their slither muscles would get covered up. But not cat-folk who presumably have hands and an opposable thumb, along with ordinary torsos. If they don't have hands, then there's other limits as well -- no ranks in Craft, for instance.

I don't get a clear sense of which big cat this is based on. Does the species chase prey? Climb up high and wait for prey to pass underneath, then leap? There shouldn't be alternate traits for these two very different hunting methods. Similarly, Darkvision is just un-catlike.

Finally, what roles will this race fill in a party? You can say that the race is largely solo hunters (so tigers or leopards, not lions). But adventurers band together. So something like Cornered Fury is hopefully not going to come up enough to be worth RP. Asking yourself how often a trait would come up in play might help you prune your list. And please think about whether anyone would want to play a race that was limited to three 1d4 attacks but was otherwise gifted physically, not magically.

Thanks for the advice, I hadn't thought about what type of big cat they stemmed from and you might be right about the Int penalty, I guess the curiosity thing is more a trait of domestic cats. I hadn't intended for them to never get proficiencies, just that they wouldn't start with them because they haven't trained with them which, to my understanding, is what proficiency means, but it sounds like maybe I should drop that idea.

Also they wouldn't be limited to 1d4 attacks. There are ways to increase the damage and effectiveness of natural weapons through feats, such as Catfolk Exemplar and Improved Natural Attacks, and items, like the Amulet of Mighty Fists and Claw Blades. I would also like to make the Rake special attack available as a racial feat with appropriate prereqs, like Claw Pounce, so that eventually they could get more attacks. But without a base like this to start from, it would take a lot more feats than you would receive in a normal campaign. Especially when you consider that normal catfolk do not have a bite attack and therefore are limited to only two natural attacks. That's why I started making this race, so that there would be a viable option for players who wanted a catfolk character who uses primarily natural weapons.

It's really good for a first attempt, don't get discouraged. But something I do is rethink what I want and build two versions, one from scratch and one using the race builder, then I mix them together and play test. Best of luck with the race

Thank you.

Preventing a character from ever gaining proficiency in armor and weapons is beyond the scope of what a race is supposed to do. You're using it as a crutch in attempt to balance this powerful race that reads more like a character build than a race description.

My intention was never to forbid them ever using weapons​, it was to encourage​ the use of natural weapons and make it a viable option. The idea was that they would not start with weapon​ proficiencies​, however, they could gain them later, but they would have to use a feat to do it.

You do have a point though, this did stem from trying to create a single catfolk character that focused on using natural weapons and realizing that the way normal catfolk were built natural weapons just wouldn't​ be effective​ for very long. That sparked the idea of making a feral catfolk race that would be more physical​y powerful​.

This is also my first time trying to make a custom race.

I looks pretty good at first glance, but if they are so xenophobic why don't they have a cha penalty instead of their wis penalty, I like the concept though. I'll look at it more in depth tomorrow as I am very tired right now

I kind of did give them a cha penalty, because​ normal catfolk get a plus to dex and cha and a minus to wis. I simply switched the plus from cha to str. Catfolk get a wis penalty because​ their catlike curiosity​ often gets them into trouble​. I liked that idea and figured that with feral catfolk being even more catlike this would still be an issue​ for them. That is why I kept the wis penalty.

I also found a third party beastmaster class that I think could be a favored class for them because​ of their close connection to animals as they almost are animals. It also made sense to me that if they don't use weapons​ they might compensate by training predatory animals to assist them in hunting. And of course this class relies a lot on cha for handle animal checks. So they are not totally xenophobic​, they just don't interact much with other intelligent​ races because​ they feel a closer kinship with animals.

I am working on creating a custom race that would be a more feral less evolved version of catfolk that leans more towards it's origins as a big cat and focuses on natural attacks like claws and bite. I picture them being more solitary or living in small nomadic tribes that survive primarily by hunting and rarely if ever trade or interact with other races. As a result, they would lean more toward physical power and speed and be less sociable.

I have been using the custom race builder with the idea that they would be an advanced race with an RP of 15, but that it would be at least partially offset by them only being proficient with their natural attacks (claws and bite), claw blades, and possibly light armor.

This is what I have so far, but if anyone has any ideas or advice on how I could improve this that would be awesome.

Feral Catfolk
Humanoid (0rp)
catfolk subtype (0rp)
medium size (0rp)
normal speed (0rp)
Specialized (1rp) +2 strength +2 dex -2 wis
Languages: Xenophobic: catfolk. High int: common, elven, sylvan, Gnoll

Only proficient in claw blades and light armor.

Racial Traits:
(*indicates the number of times trait would be taken)

*Cat's Luck (1 RP): Prerequisite: The race has at least a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity; Benefit: Members of this race gain the following extraordinary ability: Once per day, when a member of this race makes a Reflex saving throw, it can roll the saving throw twice and take the better result. It must decide to use this ability before attempting the saving throw.

*Natural Armor (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +1 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class.

**Improved Natural Armor (1 RP): Prerequisite: Natural armor racial trait; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +1 natural armor bonus. Special: This racial trait can be taken multiple times. Each additional time you take this trait, increase its cost by 1 RP. Its effects stack.

*Static Bonus Feat (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Choose one feat with no prerequisites. All members of this race gain this feat as a bonus feat at 1st level: Catfolk Exemplar.

*Sprinter (1 RP): Prerequisite: Normal speed; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +10 foot racial bonus to their speed when using the charge, run, or withdraw actions.

**Bite (1 RP): Prerequisites: Small or larger size; Benefit: Members of this race gain a natural bite attack, dealing damage equivalent to that of a creature two size categories lower than normal for their size (1d2 for Small races, 1d3 for Medium, etc.). The bite is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if the creature is wielding manufactured weapons. Special: This trait can be taken up to two times. The second time it is taken, the bite damage increases by one size category.

*Cat's Claws (2rp): Some catfolk have stronger and more developed claws than other members of their race, and can use them to make attacks. Catfolk with this racial trait have a pair of claws they can use as natural weapons. These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage. This racial trait replaces natural hunter.

*Low-Light Vision (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race can see twice as far as a race with normal vision in conditions of dim light.

Possible alternate traits I am considering:

Darkvision 60 Feet (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race can see in the dark up to 60 feet.

Scent (4 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race gain the scent ability .

Cornered Fury (4 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Whenever a member of this race is reduced to half its hit points or fewer and has no conscious ally within 30 feet, it gains a +2 racial bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class.

Lucky, Lesser (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.

Lucky, Greater (4 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +2 racial bonus on all saving throws.

Camouflage (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Choose a ranger favored terrain type. Members of this race gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks while within that terrain type.

Silent Hunter (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number includes the penalty reduction from this trait).

Sneaky (5 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks.
Quick Reactions (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race receive Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.

Climb (2 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race have a climb speed of 20 feet, and gain the +8 racial bonus on Climb checks that a climb speed normally grants.

Fast (1 RP): Prerequisite: Normal speed; Benefit: Members of this race gain a +10 foot bonus to their base speed. Special: This trait can be taken more than once, but each time it is, the cost increases by 1 RP. Its effects stack.

Fleet-Footed (3 RP): Prerequisite: The race has at least a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity; Benefit: Members of this race receive Run as a bonus feat and a +2 racial bonus on initiative checks.

Jumper (2 RP): Prerequisite: The race has at least a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity; Benefit: Members of this race are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump.

Other:
Also, I think it would be fun to give them the ability to walk on two legs or on all fours when they choose to and maybe have some different traits depending on the stance they are using. I would also like for them to be able to gain the Rake ability maybe as a feat in progression from Claw Pounce if I can figure how to make that work. Is it acceptable to make my own race feats?

How about a more feral less evolved version of catfolk that leans more towards it's origins as a big cat and focuses on natural attacks like claws and bite. I picture them being more solitary or living in small nomadic tribes that survive primarily by hunting and rarely if ever trade or interact with other races. As a result, they would lean more toward physical power and speed and be less sociable. Due to their close connection with animals (in fact they nearly are animals) I think a beastmaster or something similar would be a fun class for them.