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Elaserdar wrote:

Maybe Im just butthurt because the "free" healer's kit uses are way more effective than my crappy 1d6 alchemist elixirs :p

I mean, except for the part where it takes 10 minutes/1 hour to administer this healing and 2 actions to draw and chug an Elixir.

I'm not saying it's not useful. I actually have a familiar that I gave manual dexterity. So my toad sits on my shoulders and can feed me elixirs if I get hurt. So it actually only takes me one action to command my familiar :)

The distinction between the two, is that one expends a resource and the other doesn't. Is it expanding gold in this case? No. But my elixirs made per day is very limited. It is effectively the expanding of a spell slot. And most of those go to bombs, since I am of the bomber focus. (I saw the picture of the goblin alchemist burning down The docks, and I just had to make one). Yes, I realize I get two elixirs for one batch of reagents. But since I lack cantrips, my bombs and reagents go quick.

If Treat Wounds is too video games, I am curious on your stance of wands of CLW.

It depended on the campaign. I was never a huge fan of it, but it certainly did crop up sometimes.

At least then, there is a finite resource being expended. One that is quite cheap at higher levels, but still a cost. And at level 2, 750 gold is quite a chunk of change.

Treat wounds only has the initial cost for the kit.

The funny part of all this, is that in pf1 I thought that heal was too weak. So I don't mind that they buffed it, but it seems like they took it too far.

As stated previously, we are continuing with rules as written for now. After all, we are only level two. And our sample size so to speak, is still too small to make any major changes.

Elaserdar wrote:

Any thought(s) / feelings? / Suggested Nerfs?

Healing may feel almost inconsequential if the party invest skill feats into the skill, so another option may be to look at the Healers Kit from 1st edition.

This collection of bandages and herbs provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Heal checks. A healer’s kit is exhausted after 10 uses. (50 GP)

The bonus is much the same as 2e in terms of effect (+2 then is +1 now), but the previous version had limited uses and a cost in gold to refill. The lack of a use limit in 2e may be a misprint/error? This won't affect how often they can heal, but the cost will limit them financially and hopefully encourage better tactics when infinite free healing isn't available.

This is one of the problems with the skill. The old CLW wand was an expended resource. As was the old healers kit.

Cleric spell slots are also an expended resource.

Maybe Im just butthurt because the "free" healer's kit uses are way more effective than my crappy 1d6 alchemist elixirs :p

Lots of people disliked needing magic in order to let martials keep fighting during the day. Now, magic is much faster, but it isn’t required to avoid recovering for multiple days after a big fight.

Perhaps we disagree on this. We just feel that it essentially makes damage meaningless. If I can get a just shy of fatal wound like a longsword through my abdomen and be back up like nothing happened in a few hours like nothing happened that is silly.

Like our fighter, has 32hp. Average healing for a full hour of treating wounds is 18hp. So in 2 hours he goes from almost dead to full health nothing happened... with.. basic... bandages...

Sure, it's nice for the non healers, but there is a flip side to that coin. When everyone can be as good as or better than your devoted healing magic for free.... it detracts from the role of the healer.

I remember being disappointed with the video-game feeling of HP in another recent game, and was very happy to see a selection of a few different optional rules to make injury a bit more serious, allowing for a bit grittier setting, for people who wanted that.

I am sure I'll play this as written for the first several adventures, but imagine I may want to customize this in the future at some point, as long as the others playing agree. (I'm guessing as usual, I'll end up being the GM)

This is exactly our problem. Its a very video game feel, and kills suspension of disbelief. Just piling bandages on someone until they go from dying 3 to good as new tap dancing in a few hours is just silly.

We also intend to keep playing RAW for now. It just seems OP thus far.

So my group is just starting out on the plaguestone path, and medicine is kinda OP.

After a rough fight, everyone was pretty hurt. We went to rest for the night, and found that the resting HP restoration rules simply didn't matter. Being able to heal 4d8hp per medic per hour is a crazy level of downtime healing at level 2.

Throw in ward medic or continual recovery and it gets even more absurd.

We ended up hand waving the healing rolls to save time. Sure, you could fail and damage yourself, but it takes 4 failed rolls to cancel out one successful roll. And a critical fail only happens on a 1 for us.

We are considering nerfing the skill as a house rule, since slapping a few bandages on someone near death and then having them good as new within a few hours seems silly.

We are talking about increasing the cooldown to once per day, and removing continual recovery as a feat, or making it have higher requirements.

Any thought(s) / feelings? / Suggested Nerfs?

With the incredible length of this thread, I have no idea if this has been brought up or not but...

A succubus could easily use its charm monster or dominate abilities to "lure someone in for and act of passion" and not even be grappled or have to expend an action.

1) charm, suggestion, dominate (standard)
2) open shirt (if wearing one)(move)
3) kiss me here (free)
4) Auto suggestion continues the situation while the PC gleefully drains themself and the succubus is free to act.

Sadly, I lack pictures.

No. Just because something calls for a will save does not mean it is mind-affecting.

Heat metal being a wonderful example.

If your DM allows conversion of 3.5 feats Reactive Counterspell is your best friend. As stated, you will likely want a good initiative so improved init is great (don't forget about your perception though). And Counterspell mastery already gives improved counterspell, so it is an easy feat to pick up at 7th level.

Reactive Counterspell

( Player's Guide to Faerûn, p. 42)
[General]
You can react quickly to counter spells cast by opponents.
Prerequisite: Improved Initiative (PH) , Improved Counterspell,
Benefit
Once per round, you can counterspell an opponent's spell even if you have not readied an action to do so. This counterspell action takes the place of your next turn. You can't use this feat when you are flat-footed.
Normal:Without this feat, you must ready an action each round that you wish to use a counterspell.

At higher levels (15), don't forget about the glory that is Parry Spell.

Parry Spell

You can throw an enemy spell back at its caster.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, Improved Counterspell .
Benefit: Whenever you successfully counter a spell, it returns back to its caster. This works exactly like the spell turning spell.

If you are playing a mythic game, Eldrich Breach and Flexible Counterspell are delicious. Eldrich breach takes the success chance of a 50/50 dispel check and makes it more like 80%. Get a few CL boosting bonuses in (or just use greater dispel) and you can have a near guaranteed dispel / counter.

Eldritch Breach (Su)[/b]

You are adept at breaching magical defenses and overcoming resistance to your magic. When attempting a caster level check to dispel an effect, overcome spell resistance, or otherwise determine whether your magic affects a target (such as with knock or neutralize poison), roll twice and take the higher result.

Out of your immediate action counterspells per day? As long as you have mythic power you are good to go with Flexible Counterspell.

Flexible Counterspell (Su)[/b]

Your mythic power enhances your ability to counter others' spells. As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power to attempt to counter a spell. This ability otherwise works like readying an action to counter a spell, except instead of using the exact spell or dispel magic, you can instead expend a spell or spell slot of a level equal to or higher than the target spell.

Want to really make an enemy caster hate life? Mix Dweomer Retaliation (spell from Cheliax, empire of devils) with the Dazing Spell metamagic feat. You will get temp hit points, they take damage, they make a will save or are Dazed for 3 rounds, and if you beat them (by a lot) in a concentration check you get the spell back...

Dweomer Retaliation

School abjuration; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 immediate action
Components V
Range Long (400 f. + 40 f./level) Target one creature you counterspelled since your last turn
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

You may only cast this spell immediately after successfully counterspelling an opponent. Drawing upon the residual energy of the countered spells, you gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the level of the countered spell plus your Charisma or Intelligence modifier (for sorcerers and wizards, respectively); your counterspelled opponent takes damage equal to this amount.

If the countered spell was at least 4th level, you and your opponent make opposed concentration checks. If you beat your opponent by 10 or more, you retain this spell (or its spell slot, if you are a sorcerer) as if you had not cast it.

Dazing Spell (Metamagic)

You can daze creatures with the power of your spells.
Benefit: You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell.
Level Increase: +3 (a dazing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not inflict damage do not benefit from this feat.