ElIsRa's page

Do people actually play the game like this - where downtime activity is even a marginal segment of the total accumulation of wealth that the character has?

Because that seems to be the basis for all of the anti-crafting viewpoints on here. That since they see crafting as being slightly less lucrative than other downtime activities (whether or not that is actually accurate or not), that the crafting process and rules are outright bad.

Which just seems silly.

Note, I never said that the skill Crafting was bad, but that crafting system doesn't compare favorably with the income system. Both are downtime activities. No one was arguing that downtime activities compare with exploration or combat activities.

I disagree emphatically with your first counter but there is nothing to go on since you went with the "gm can adjust anything" argument. The difference is that crafting is pretty heavily codified mechanically, where earn an income is left up to the GM and roleplay scenarios by design.

If GM is asking for rare or uncommon crafting materials and the item doesn't mention those materials, or they are restricting access beyond what the book suggests. That is their prerogative to a point, but it isn't what should be considered the standard with a conversation of merits like this is simply pointless.

Saying "a gm can say you can't invent a common formula" is even worse and incredibly bad faith

Blave wrote:

If you can reverse engeneer an item, you already have it. Doing so to get the Formula and re-crafting it is pointless unless you have plenty of resources (time and money) AND need more "copies" of the same item.

It doesn't take that long to reverse engineer an item, and yes that is for getting multiples of items... that you would otherwise not be able to get, pretty simple stuff.

That is the point, someone finds a greater quick runner's shirt being able to increase it to 2-3 for the party is great.

Someone is playing in Age of Ashes and finds the dragons scale amulet, that is a HUGE boon, now sure a GM might ask for said dragon scale material to make it. But as written reverse engineering and crafting the item multiple times is a benefit of crafters.

Its actually really fair for a GM to rule that even common materials aren't available, or available in the desired quantity in a given location. A small fishing village isn't going to have lots of metal ingots, a desert outpost probably wont have lots of wood, ect, ect, ect.

Garulo wrote:

Yes, I see that if all you ever want is to craft a bunch of low level alchemical items for your stash and your play style uses these items all the time, you can gain a nominally higher "value." Of course if you do not want to spend all of your earn income on those low level alchemical items (maybe you want to get a low level magic item) then you are actually worse off given the 4 days of prep work...

Once again, you're wrong. You consider that you succeed at all your checks which is not the case.

As an example, let's say you have 1 chance on 3 to fail and for the sake of simplicity you have 24 days of downtime. On average, you'll earn roughly 17 days of donwtime (8 days of a failed check gives the equivalent of one successful day). So you can still earn more with Crafting as you only need to succeed at one check to perform the full item.
And that's without counting that you can have a reduced DC (but the more you reduce the DC and the more you reduce the duration, so it kind of balance itself out).

As a side note, 24 days is not a lot to craft an item, you are very often above that.

That's great if you just want to make lots of low level consumables. Often though, the best use of funds is to invest in higher level durable goods.

The disadvantages to using crafting is most pronounced in this situation. First off, you have to invest in the equipment, the formula, any feats you need for the item you want. When you finally get started on your item you have to have at least half of the cost on hand when you start your crafting. You then get to work for 4 days for free. Next you get to roll a craft check. If you fail you lose those 4 days for nothing and if you crit fail you actually lose 5% of the value of the item you're trying to get.
Now compare this to earning income. You can do start with no equipment, and no special feats. You roll to work, and even if you fail you still make money. No set up costs, no working for free. You just get paid. And you can use that money however you'd like.

ElIsRa wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

Yes. What HammerJack said.

Also, it is for building characters that have crafting things as part of the lore and backstory of the character. The mechanical gains are small, but they are still there. Which, for this type of character is a nice added bonus.

My whole point is that there is no mechanical advantage to crafting whatsoever, outside of some rare edge cases. Its actually mechanically disadvantage to craft your own stuff.

My point is that it is the same mechanical benefit as Bargain Hunter or Earn Income. At the end of the downtime (assuming it is only a week or so), you will end up with the same amount of money and the same item. Assuming all else is equal. Because it uses the same Earn Income table.

So a level 6 character in a level 6 settlement trying to get a level 6 item working for 7 days and succeeds at the skill check will get the same amount of money from the Earn Income table - whether that is the discount on crafting the item, the discount from buying the item at a lower price, or the money gained from employment that is then spent buying the item at full price.

The mechanical differences are minor and have to do with cases where all of these things are not equal. The biggest mechanical benefit that crafting gives over the other options is that you ignore the settlement level when crafting - using your character level instead. So you can craft things even when you are out in the wilderness and not in a settlement at all.

So again, it becomes a flavor choice more than anything else. If your character is supposed to be a master craftsman or someone that lives off the land and only goes into tiny settlements when absolutely necessary, crafting can give you the same benefits that any other character that lives in the city can get.

But not more benefit. Like Zaister said, if you are expecting the same...

My whole point is that crafting doesn't keep up with the other means of downtime income. Blave has already made my point better than I have, so I redirect you to the posts they have already made.

Yes. What HammerJack said.

Also, it is for building characters that have crafting things as part of the lore and backstory of the character. The mechanical gains are small, but they are still there. Which, for this type of character is a nice added bonus.

My whole point is that there is no mechanical advantage to crafting whatsoever, outside of some rare edge cases. Its actually mechanically disadvantage to craft your own stuff.

Well, someone who has gone in heavily on crafting can end up with minor monetary gains over a crafter, but the more relevant answer is in your question.

Quote:

assuming that you could by it for the listed price?

This assumption doesn't hold up for every campaign in every location. Crafting has more value when it doesn't.

Going heavily into crafting can end up with a monetary gain over a crafter? What does that even mean? My point is that you can make more working a Lore skill over crafting an item. Granted that you can possibly use a craft skill in the limited circumstances that you don't have access to the desired item from some sort of store. But that raises the question, where did you get the formula? You can't even use the Invention feat to make a formula for an uncommon item.

But back to my point, you actually can find higher level jobs to work; therefore, making even more money than what you can save by crafting your own gear. I would think that master craftsmen would be able to make things so cheaply that it wouldn't make any sense to buy it at all.

Maybe I missed something, but why would someone ever opt to craft an item over buying an item assuming that you could by it for the listed price? The way that the rules are written, I spend half of the cost to craft something, then work for 4 days, then make a check vs the item's DC, then if you succeed you reduce the additional cost as if you earned the value by working. Why would I ever chose that over just working a given number of days equal the time it takes to earn half the gold required for the item I want to craft? I mean, every time that I do the latter I save 4 days which I could work and earn even more towards more gear. And if I want special (ie alchemical/magical/ect) gear I have to use feat slots that could go to more useful things. I'm asking this as someone who really wants to embrace crafting but I feel like I'm nerfing myself every time that I do. Please someone tell me I'm missing something or that there is some way to make crafting be at least on par with using a normal lore skill to earn money.