...In the days of gold as XP, you would adventure because that is how you progress in the game. It is a fundamental mechanic which dictates the need for constant movement to improve.
More 'recent' games give a higher relevance to story and motivation even before you go adventuring. And unless the motivation is 'to adventure', then at a certain point why would you continue? And that places what I sometimes feels to be an onerous responsibility on the DM to keep providing hooks one after the other, to make sure characters (and thus players) are involved and commited...
My characters adventure because I want to play the game.
Being involved in a story, helping to build a story, is why I want to play.
If I didn't want to play the character any more I would work with the GM to find a way to write them out of the story.
I don't excitedly talk about how much treasure I've found. I might excitedly talk about an impressive fight. (But probably not.)
Getting XP for gold or for killing monsters or for simply exploring has never been a reason for me to play the game.
Playing the game involves going on an adventure therefore wanting to play the game is the motivation to go on an adventure.
That is fair - I think of it like this:
- There’s a world. In that world are ruins, lairs, towers, villains, and strange mysteries.
- The players engage with the game. And the game says: you advance by getting treasure.
- So, if you want to play, that’s the game — go out into the world and seek gold.
- Of course there are rumors and story hooks, but those are signposts, not rails.
- Kingdoms have politics, cities have factions, evil schemes are unfolding — all of that exists in the world whether you engage with it or not.
- As you explore, interact, and survive, stories happen. Maybe you take down a cult. Maybe you get cursed and want to find the mage who did it. Maybe you build a stronghold, or join a thieves' guild. Or maybe you just die, and the next character walks into the same world — still coherent and alive.
So for me, Gold-as-XP isn’t just a progression mechanic — it’s a gameplay philosophy. It creates momentum and gives players a reason to act. They don’t sit around waiting for the GM to hand them a plot — they go out into the world and make their own.
Just to be clear — I have nothing against narrative-first games or storytelling systems. I play in one regularly face to face, and I really enjoy it. This isn’t about saying one style is better than another.
What I’m exploring here is whether this particular game-first approach — where advancement is tied to treasure, and the world is something to be discovered — can coexist with a system I like, namely PF1e. In other words - can a more emergent, old-school style of play be compatible with a modern, mechanics-rich system like Pathfinder?
That’s the question I’m playing with :)
Warped Savant wrote:
That being said, if you want to use Gold as XP, using WBL makes the most sense. My thought on that is to do one of two options:
-Reward XP based on the full gold value of everything found (slightly faster levelling, WBL will be lower than the game suggests)
or
-Reward XP based on the sale gold value of everything found (slightly slower levelling, WBL will be higher than the game suggests)
(For some reason, my brain is telling me that the PF designers expect PCs to keep about half of the gear they find and sell the other half, but I have no idea where I'm getting that from.)
Both of those options include anything the group keeps. Mathematically speaking, A specific XP total should equal a specific gold total* therefore the reverse of that is true and a specific gold total equals a specific XP total.
*EG: Level 10 = 62,000 gp, Level 11 = 82,000 gp therefore 62,000 GP = Level 10, 82,000 gp = Level 11.
I’m more inclined to the first option, just because it seems simpler and easier to communicate to the players:
You recover loot — you get the XP. Done.
Then do whatever you want with it: sell it at half value, keep it, melt it down, equip henchmen, open a general store. Up to you.
Gold as XP is certainly not the way PF1 is set up for, but you could simply assign CRs to areas for exploration or other activities associated with adventuring that will help you track XP.
Giving the found treasure trove a set CR, and thus XP value, means that whether they sell or hoard they still get the XP.
This sounds like an interesting take - you get the XP for retrieving the loot. What you do with it after is up to you. I like it.
TxSam88 wrote:
If we were to go back to XP=GP, then I'm pretty sure we'd just go murderhobo across the entire game map with no care or reason... all in all, just chaotic evil play everwhere we went.
We'll agree to disagree on this and several other things - I play in more than one game in which gold=XP, and there are no murderhobos in any of them. The way I see it, 'murdredhoboing' is more an issue with the players and their view of the game, than any reward system. But again, you have your opinion and I have mine :)
fujisempai wrote:
Interestingly I recently started playing in a pathfinder game that decided to use wealth by level to determine when we level. Its mostly dungeon crawling. The treasure value gets calculated based on the loot we get out of the dungeon and into town(whether we spend it or not). The dungeon has 20 levels with an access to every level in one place. higher numbered levels have greater challenge and greater rewards.
And how has the experience been? I am very curious.
I feel like my issue lies at a more basal level with the motivations for adventuring. In the days of gold as XP, you would adventure because that is how you progress in the game. It is a fundamental mechanic which dictates the need for constant movement to improve.
More 'recent' games give a higher relevance to story and motivation even before you go adventuring. And unless the motivation is 'to adventure', then at a certain point why would you continue? And that places what I sometimes feels to be an onerous responsibility on the DM to keep providing hooks one after the other, to make sure characters (and thus players) are involved and commited.
Of course, regardless of the nature of the game, it is expected after a while, if you are playing in a living world, and engaging environment, that your characters will surpass the need to obtain treasure simply to survive, but instead to interact with the world in more meaningful ways - like building a castle, go on a crusade, settle a distant land, build an armada, become a ruler, start a thieves' guild, whatever it might be. But in the 'early levels' of their existence, it is a goal/mechanism unto itself for character improvement. When it is part of the game, as it used to be.
Not sure I am explaining myself properly, but that's the gist of it for me. Not saying A is better than B. Simply saying I like the PF1e ruleset, and would like to take it for a spin in this context - might even arrive at the conclusion the PF1e game is really not a good one to use gold as XP with, or the kind of 'adventure game' I have in mind, and that is perfectly fine. But first I need to arrive at that conclusion. So looking for input from others :)
EG: Are you hoping for players to become treasure hunters that use skills to avoid fighting enemies?
I think this nails it down pretty well.
I wouldn't expect players to avoid fighting enemies, I think that should always be their prerogative. And I also think more players would already avoid combat if DMs were a little bit more 'by the book' but that is a different conversation ;)
But I would like to create an environment which rewards exploration and treasure finding (adventuring, in a nutshell) yes, much more than killing bad guys, or waiting around for plot hooks (which will of course exist nonetheless). Earning XP in accordance to the treasure you find as a game mechanic, could prove an incentive to go around poke your head in dark holes, and explore the actual world around you.
On a similar conversation in a different channel, someone suggested perhaps rewards based on exploration - something like you poked around in the wilderness, with its inherent dangers, and you discovered a ruin 'worth exploring' - that in itself could be worth XP. Then you delve in for its riches and treasure if you so desire, or explore some more.
One thing about the loot you get, and I'm unsure about your math...
A lot of loot found isn't interesting to the party, and is sold for 50% of its listed value. And consumables are odd to handle, since effectively that wealth simply disappears when used.
Yeah I am also unsure about my math :)
And those are good points:
- Mundane loot (equipment, weapons armor and such) if sold, will net half the book cost. Conversely, in older school games (as an example) one would not even consider picking up a fallen enemy's longsword to sell. I don't think it was simply done. I have also been playing some AD&D games recently and it is not a thing. Bottom line, maybe you can grab mundane equipment to gear yourself, but maybe selling it should be 'ignored'. Otherwise they could perhaps count as 1/2 WBL XP;
- Consumables... Another good point. Perhaps they could count as (WBL) XP when you first grab them, and that is it.
Matthew Downie wrote:
Pathfinder adventures usually contain the 'correct' amount of treasure to keep you at WBL, so making that be how you measure level progress would presumably work reasonably well. Though Pathfinder assumes you'll lose some potential WBL by selling items at half price - if you're giving them XP as the full value of items found, that would probably make them level up faster than intended. And they will occasionally give you a legendary artefact item at a low level - not sure how you'd handle that.
But I wouldn't recommend doing this for an Adventure Path at all. The whole point of treasure->XP was that it allowed you to run a campaign with minimal story, just a goal of finding loot in dungeons while trying to avoid danger. (For that kind of game, if you rewarded the party primarily for killing monsters, it would become a game about seeking out danger, rather than one about caution.)
Yep, yep. I can see mundane items probably need to be removed from the equation, or valued at half cost/half WBL XP. Makes sense.
And agreed, this is not aimed at Adventure Paths at all - I won't go into what constitutes a Campaign or a story, because each person has their own perception and preferences about it. But yeah, this would be geared toward an 'open' game (you can call it a sandbox if you will), lots of player agency, and very little in the way of rails. Thus less limited in the way that 'if players arrive at this part of the AP with level 10 instead of level 7, it will be a cake walk for them', but more toward exploration and adventuring.
Azothath wrote:
your methodology is more stream of consciousness than an actual formula or process. Now that you have the information give it another shot. Transfer the data to a spreadsheet like LibreOffice Calc & tinker away.
Never claimed to have any sort of formula. Agreed this needs to be further digested. Love me some spreadsheets.
This whole subject has a lot of ramifications and can take us down a rabbit hole of playstyles and adequacy, etc. I am perfectly ok doing that exercise, and I am sure we will get there later on. And yes, I do know about milestone XP, and have been using it for many, many years ;)
But for now suffice it to say I am considering the possibility of putting this into practice (gold as XP), probably coupled with a dramatic reduction in monster XP value. I read on the www someone suggesting the use of the WBL values to 'measure' measure the amount of loot/gold a character would need to level up, and I found the idea simple and interesting.
A quick look at the WBL shows that a character going from level 2 to level 3, should experience a gain of about 2000gp, so I decided to look at a 'golden oldie' - Crown of the Kobold King. I crunched some numbers on the full amount of available treasure, and arrived at a total value of around 50 to 60k gold pieces, accounting for treasure and magical items.
Meaning, if the group is made of 4-6 level 2 characters as recommended (WBL 1000gp), and they recover.... Let's say 50% of the treasure (25-30k), then each character's share would be approximately 4166 to 5000 gold pieces (6 characters), and be extremely close to the threshold of level 4. Or 6250 to 7500 gold pieces (4 characters), and be well over that threshold. And none of this includes monster XP.
Has anyone ever done a similar exercise? Is my math too 'off'? What were your own conclusions?
Of course there are several variables here - maybe 50% is not the most appropriate percentage of loot accrued by most groups, could be higher or lower. But conversely, maybe it means you can play with bigger parties? That might make the module 'as-is' a cakewalk for a larger group.
Curious about other people's thoughts on this, if any.
We were in a couple of games together = Falcon's Hollow, Reign of Winter (briefly) and Emerald Spire.
I am very sorry for your losses. Above all, I hope you are feeling better health wise, and that life is giving you a chance to get back on your feet GMMichael! That is what's most important.
I added some more background info on Thark, and an image ;)
Notes on Background:
Nothing has ever been easy in Thark's life - having long lived along the southern border of Brevoy, existence has been hard for him and his family, but through hunting, trapping, trading, and coaxing crops from the freezing earth, they have learned how to survive on the rugged frontier.
Being so far north, winters are long and harsh. The short spring and summer seasons require the populace to farm and fish just enough to keep food on the table. So, much like many other peasant families, for many years his life consisted of working the small farm from dawn to dusk, and every once in a while visiting the local tavern in the evening with his father.
During the winter when the farming could not be done, then the household chores filled his days - together with his two younger sisters he helped his mother and father as best as they could. He was taught this existence would always be his best option - living simply, supporting his family, and avoid the notice of the nobles.
Farm work made him strong as an ox, and as resilient as can be - from a nearby neighbor who served briefly in the Crusade, but who was wounded and could not fight anymore, Thark got his first weapons and armor - a reward for a day he encountered the man's family wagon fallen on its side, while they were beset by wolves. The boy's courage drove the wolves away, even if he sported many wounds in the process. To pay for it, Alagran offered him an old armor, weapon and shield. His father was not happy about it initially, but recognized the importance of being able to handle oneself, and as long as Thark did not fail his family or his chores, he did not forbid him to learn how to fight from Alagran.
In the far northeastern reaches of Avistan, the land and its people become harsh and unforgiving, so Thark is a product of his upbringing - he would do anything for his family and land, and that is why he is willing to step forward now, when there is an actual chance to make a difference. With a grim set visage, among tears from his mother, excitement from his sisters, and a stoic acceptance from his father, he grabbed what meager possessions they could spare him for this journey and set off. Even if wearing another man's armor and wielding a weapon he does not master, this is nothing new for him. Why would things be easy this time?
Adding a basic crunch to go along with the basic background I posted before - I went with a simple sword and shield fighter. Seems like a good way to better learn the PF2e ropes :)
Thark:
Thark
Human fighter 1
CG, Medium, Human, Humanoid Heritage versatile heritage
Background warrior
Perception +6
Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Athletics +7, Intimidation +3, Medicine +4, Society +3, Survival +4, Warfare Lore +3
Str 18 (+4), Dex 12 (+1), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 10 (+0)
Items chain mail, flail, purse (8 gp, 2 sp)
--------------------
AC 18; Fort +8; Ref +6; Will +4
HP 22
Attack of Opportunity [R]Trigger A creature within your reach uses a manipulate action or a move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action it’s using. Effect You lash out at a foe that leaves an opening. Make a melee Strike against the triggering creature. If your attack is a critical hit and the trigger was a manipulate action, you disrupt that action. This Strike doesn’t count toward your multiple attack penalty, and your multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to this Strike.
--------------------
Speed 25 feet
Melee [1] flail +9 (disarm, sweep, trip), Damage 1d6+4 B
Ancestry Feats Natural Ambition
Class Feats Power Attack, Reactive Shield
General Feats Shield Block, Toughness
Skill Feats Intimidating Glare
Other Abilities shield block
Still need to add remaining gear, and fluff details.
I don’t have much experience with 2e, but simply cannot pass up an opportunity to play Kingmaker :D
Planning on going with something simple - a Fighter! Fighters have always been my favorite in all Fantasy RPG I have ever played, and I hear good things about how PF2e has approached the class, so it seems like a great opportunity.
No idea on what kind of crunch I will go with, but I am envisioning a man returning home after having been away, and welcoming the opportunity to make a difference in the Stolen Lands (maybe that can be the reason he came back in the first place). I see him as having family ties in the region, so personal stakes in the whole thing. I see him as grim and hardened, perhaps somewhat even callous at the onset of it all, which only means he has more room to grow.
Of course this is a work in progress, so I will keep updating as I go.
Helgash is interested in Influencing Kroop or Cut-Throat Grok.
Kroop is not available at night.
Grok is unavailable tonight as well.
:/
Trevor0828 wrote:
Caulky and Owlbear are not actual crew, and generally unapproachable. They are not able to be influenced except as special events.
Hmmmm, I am choosing all the right ones :P
Trevor0828 wrote:
Btw, Helgash, as the cook's mate, you have more freedom to move about, so your daytime actions are slightly modified. For instance, Shop and Shirk do not impose a -2 penalty on you.
Trevor0828 wrote:
Also, as long as Helgash makes an honest effort to assist Kroop, he will become helpful after several days, so no real need to "influence" him.
Good to know!
Well, in that case Helgash will attempt to influence Barefoot Samms Toppin.
As he moves around during the day, Helgash is drawn by his curiosity regarding the bare footed woman, so he pays more attention to her, and to what is said about her amidst the rest of the crew.
Diplomacy to gather info:1d20 + 3 ⇒ (17) + 3 = 20
At night, and after tapping his foot to Ioney's performance, and complimenting him with a thumbs up, he decides to approach her.
Then Sense Motive, right?:1d20 + 5 ⇒ (11) + 5 = 16
-----------------
Last but not least, if Helgash spots this, he will try to prevent Nivian from stealing anything, because it will turn out bad for him for sure...
Nivian Mazu wrote:
If the cook is out cold drunk, I'd like to check the kitchen. I'm quite certain there'd be a few knives that would not be missed and could function as daggers if need be. Should we roll late-night actions simultaneous with the evening ones or will that be a separate go afterwards?
Helgash is interested in Influencing Kroop or Cut-Throat Grok.
Kroop is not available at night.
Grok is unavailable tonight as well.
Well then.... Helgash is curious about “Caulky” Tarroon :D
Trevor0828 wrote:
Btw, Helgash, as the cook's mate, you have more freedom to move about, so your daytime actions are slightly modified. For instance, Shop and Shirk do not impose a -2 penalty on you.
For now I will go the 18Dex 14Str Gravity Weapon Hunted Shot archery route + AC at level 2 (this is actually more for story reasons).
Will see if it is worth it at all to resort to drawing a melee weapon, or simply stepping back (or moving away).
I also like the idea of the switch hitter for the coolness of it, so I wll see how much it gimps me to try and go toe to toe in melee when some bad guy engages me. Will probably wield either a light mace or a shortsword in these situations. And keep a few throwing knives in my belt.
Thanks a lot for so much valuable input from everyone - it definitely is giving me a better understanding of the available options and tactics!
I would love to have a 18Dex/16Str, but really am not able to stretch my Ability Scores that much :)
I have currently for my Half-Orc Ranger:
STR 14 (+2 lvl1 +2 Ancestry)
DEX 16 (+2 lvl1 +2 Background +2 Class)
CON 12 (+2 lvl1)
INT 10
WIS 14 (+2 lvl1 +2 Ancestry)
CHA 10
Half-Orc Ancestry (for Low Light Vision).
Ancestry Feat: Natural Ambition > Gravity Weapon
Background: Feral Child because it is just cool, but also because of the Darkvision (I just can't play a Scout without Darkvision...) and Scent.
Class Feat: Hunted Shot
Is there any way to improve on those stats?
And should I have two bows?
----------
From what I have read, perhaps I could go (assuming the worst possible scenario without any preparation):
If enemy is further than 30'
Hunt Prey
Draw Longbow
Hunted Shot
If enemy stays further than 30'
Gravity Weapon
Hunted Shot
Regular Shot?
If enemy closes to less than 30'
Move to more than 30'?
Hunted Shot
Regular Shot?
If enemy closes to less than 30' and I cannot move away more than 30'
Stow longbow
Draw Shortbow
Hunted Shot
If engaged in melee
Drop bow (free)
Draw shortsword
Draw shield
Raise shield or strike (depending on how strong the enemy is)
Next round
Raise shield
Strike
Strike
Would these kinda be my options?
Though... If I take Animal Companion at level 2, I will also need an action to have him do something (attacking, etc), right? Hmmmmmm.... I may need extra actions :P
I am an almost complete PF2E noob about to play a Ranger with an Animal Companion.
And my question is exactly as the title says - I have taken Precision, Gravity Weapon and Hunted Shot. STR14 and DEX16. At level 2 I will grab an Animal Companion, and the feats to improve him as we go.
With this kind of setup, if a ‘normal’ enemy (not a BBEG) moves up into close quarters with me, I draw a morningstar and a shield and go to town with him. How well will I fare?
Apologies if the question seems absurd, but I am just trying to get a feel for the relative power levels in PF2 :)
Edeldhur lobs another acid blob at the remaining skeleton - "I am unable to understand the power of this green energy" - he explained to his companions.
Acid Splash on skeleton, ranged touch:1d20 + 4 ⇒ (12) + 4 = 16 Damage if it hits:1d3 + 1 + 1 ⇒ (3) + 1 + 1 = 5
Edeldhur ponders if he should use more powerful magic, but is hesitant as a burst of flame could destroy most of the contents of the room. Very curious about the research which was taking place here, he opts for a simpler spell.
"You are right Mr Dier" - Edeldhur comments - "Those gathered above did not seem to have enough command of the Divine to create or master undead, so they must be coming from somewhere else"
Mental note: Take Longuistics (Azlanti) on next level up :P
"It is mostly a matter of gathering the required materials Mr Dier" - Edeldhur replied - "And most of them will be costly" - he added - "If I have all the materials... I would say around a week or two"
"On the subject of making camp - I am in agreement with it" - he adds - "I would like to review some of my spells, and go over some of the magical items we have uncovered"
"My preference is for one of the first, or last watches"
"I can tell you that 'automaton' is a VERY interesting piece of Arcane research - with some work I think I can put it back together and working properly again" - Edeldhur replies to Ratel, somewhat distracted about the practical matters at hand - "Also this ring is magically enchanted, and will allow you to float safely, when falling from greater heights, much like a feather" - he adds.
I have it in my alias just so we do not forget about it, until we have a loot list. Edeldhur has no claim to it, and is not wearing it.
"Or did you mean something else..?" - he suddenly realizes his companions were probably not looking for dissertation on magical items - "Ah, regarding our venture. Well, as you put it before, as far as I am concerned we can press onward, I believe that was the general agreement, was it not?"
We have not rested yet, right? When we do, Edeldhur will have another go at the scrolls. With Read Magic this time ;)
”I would also like to do some further research on this construct, if we are given time and opportunity for it“ - Edeldhur points out, as Ratel comes in dragging the automaton.
GMMichael, any result from my Spellcraft on the ring?
"What now my friends - should we return and report?" - Edeldhur inquired of his companions, after he was finished designing the map of the area, and the structures, adding notes detailing what they encountered, so he can improve on it when he has a chance.
