That is a good point, and I understand the nit-pick, but I feel it is more just do to the fact bite was just never really a consideration when the rule was conceived. I feel the focus was on making sure that a slashing weapon was used only one-handed so a swashbuckler could not bypass the restriction to keep a hand free when using his class features. And you can see this with the last sentence in the description, "You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied."
It also appears that there was an FAQ that also states, "Attacking with natural weapons beyond the weapon you chose for Slashing Grace also does not work. Slashing Grace only works with melee attacks, not thrown attacks with a melee weapon."
Even so, with RAW, bite doesn't look compatible due to that particular wording, ("When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed"), but a claw could be.
Diego Rossi wrote:
Parring a mace with your teeth ... OUCH!
Yeah, what an odd scenario, and I am sure it is bound to happen at some point.
Anyway, have a wonderful 2020 year, and may your pathfinder sessions be consistent.
Heh, one advantage for the swashbuckler is that a bite attack counts as a light piercing weapon, so it gains the benefits of Swashbuckler Finesse, Swashbuckler Weapon Training and most deeds (though not Precise Strike), and can regain Panache by getting a critical hit or a killing blow with a bite attack.
It can definitely become useful because of this.
Actually, I was wondering, could I take the Slashing Grace Combat feat to bypass the limitation on the precise strike (as long as I take bite as my weapon focus)?
Once again, thank you for the follow up feedback.
If I am understanding correctly, the conclusion is as follows:
-'2 Claws' does not qualify for the 1.5x STR mulitplier
- You may use 1 claw as a standard attack, or both claws as a part of a full attack action
-If using both claws, then they both use full BAB and 1.0x STR
- If using a manufactured weapon in one hand and a claw with the other hand, then the manufactured weapon uses full BAB with 1.0x STR and the claw uses full BAB -5 with 0.5x STR
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This information has been really helpful as I have looked over the various scenarios in which I have been exposed to with a number of in-game circumstances.
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I have a hunter with an animal companion (monitor lizard) that I was trying to figure out if it would be worth adding on additional natural attacks for him to use. In the end, I decided to just focus on upgrading his bite.
Monitor Lizard Setup:
This Monitor lizard will take advantage of the following:
-base bite at lvl 7 - 1d8 with grab and poison
-improved trip (bully archetype)
-multiattack* at lvl 9 - BAB +6/+1 Bite
*"An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty."
Primal Companion hunter archetype grants him access to
-improved damage (increase bite by one die size)
-increased animal companion size from medium to large (limited time effect per day)
Suddenly, with this setup, it feels like I have a mini-Godzilla on my hands (minus the atomic breath).
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Another character of mine I also was concerned about was my human swashbuckler, through unfortunate circumstance (depends on your viewpoint) became a part-spider thing, so he gained a bite attack with a poison effect. I was trying to figure out how the bite attack would fit into his attack lineup, and it seems that I could use just the bite attack at full BAB and 1.5x STR, or use it during a full attack action alongside my manufactured weapon's full BAB of +7/+2 as an additional attack at full BAB -5 (+2) at 0.5x STR.
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Then I have other players I was looking out for. One plays a kitsune which can morph between a humanoid and fox form.
Another I was helping build out a tiefling that was going to primarily make use of a racial trait to have claws. Always being considered armed is a neat concept, but I was worried about keeping his claws relevant in the long-run since added BAB attack iterations do not apply to natural weapons. We decided that his character would have a manufactured weapon as a backup, but he would primarily focus his character into becoming proficient with grappling enemies so he can pin them and make full use of combat feats Deadly Grappler and Throat Slicer. (Deadly grappler to attack with natural weapons while grappling or Throat slicer to coup de grace a pinned enemy within 3 turns.)
Thank you for your time and attention to this post. I spent more time away from it that I had hoped for.
DM2 at this point recognizes natural attacks as counting as armed.
As for DM1, I haven't had a solid opportunity to discuss the matter due to time constraints we have both had going into the holiday season.
dragonhunterq wrote:
You have a lot of superfluous information there. Much of it is completely irrelevant..
It is true, I could have been more concise in what I was trying to say and convey.
Diego Rossi wrote:
For everyone
multiple attacks wrote:
A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack.
Unless you are taking the full attack action (or have another ability that explicitly permits it) Any character whether monster or PC can only make a single attack - even if it's entry lists (for example) 2 claws..
And
dragonhunterq wrote:
dragonhunterq quotation:
There is another rule you should remember: you can't use the same limb to make multiple attacks or actions unless you are making iterative attacks.
That means that if you attack with a weapon in your right hand you can't make a claw attack with the same hand, but you can make a claw attack with your left hand.
Some useful find about the whole argument:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:
Natural attacks are light weapons (though they are never expressly defined as such in the rules).
About mixing natural and weapon attacks:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5
Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries?
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).
Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.
Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.
You can find gigabytes of posts on mixing natural attacks and weapons in threads about alchemists and barbarians.
I had some additional questions regarding claws, and I think these help my understanding.
So, to verify, having 2 claws means that you are essentially equipped with two light weapons (comparable to having a dagger in each hand), and that means that a single attack action can only use one of the 2 claws, unless you apply two-weapon fighting penalties, in which case you can use both? (a -4 and a -8 attack penalty respectively if you do not have the two-weapon fighting feat)
I expect it is the same principle if using a manufactured weapon in one claw and nothing in the other(two-weapon penalties to do both).
Additionally, that would mean that during a full-round action you could choose to use just one claw at full BAB or both with their respective two-weapon fighting penalties?
Lastly, it is my understanding that '2 Claws' does not qualify for the 1 1/2 multiplier on attacks, but each claw gets a strength modifier added to it.
I am in a circumstance where I thought it prudent to consult the forums regarding the Rules as Written for Natural Attacks as I now have 2 DMs with different takes on the usage of natural weapons.
I have researched the the rules on my own and have my own viewpoint on the matter.
NOTE: I am not trying to be harsh or start a conflict, both DMs are good friends of mine. Additionally, there is always the possibility that I could be wrong, I just want to be sure. I also understand that the DM gets the final say. Nonetheless, we have a good number of characters in our campaigns with access to natural attacks, so I don't want myself or the others to have our damage potential - or potential choices for character builds - be limited because of a misunderstanding.
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Here are the main points that I am attempting to address based on the viewpoints of these DMs.
DM1:
Natural attacks are for creatures only, and should a PC get a natural attack, they must choose between the natural attack or their manufactured weapon in any given situation. His ruling comes from - in part - this forum post on another site: Pathfinder: 2 Talon Attack or 2 Attacks?
DM2:
Claws count as unarmed attacks.
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Anything else in regards to natural attacks in this post is for clarification and understanding to prevent future issues/debates.
Contrary to my DMs, I believe that the rules state that claws consider the PC as armed, and you can attack at full BAB for a manufactured weapon and still attack with all of your available* natural attacks - albeit all natural attacks in this manner are considered secondary and take a -5 penalty to attack rolls.
*claws that are holding objects or manufactured weapons do not qualify as available
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Rules as Written
Natural Attacks:
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks).
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as Dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature’s description.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See Table: Natural Attacks by Size for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.
Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Multiple Attacks
A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack.
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Unarmed Attacks:
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
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Threatened Squares:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.
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Touch Spells in Combat:
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
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Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons:
Most character classes are proficient with all simple weapons. Combat-oriented classes such as barbarians, cavaliers, and fighters are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Characters of other classes are proficient with an assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons they gain from their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon.
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Animal Companions:
BAB
This is the animal companion’s base attack bonus. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. Animal companions do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus.
Multiattack
An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
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Monster Entry Format:
Melee The creature’s melee attacks are listed here, with its attack roll modifier listed after the attack’s name followed by the damage and crit modifiers in parentheses. See example for details.
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Personal understanding:
I believe that the rules state that claws consider the PC as armed, however I find it odd that it has to state that "a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed," under the unarmed section. Does this mean that natural attacks are technically unarmed, but for the sake of rules count as armed?
The reason this came up as an issue was the fact that I was looking at being able to perform combat maneuvers, and disarm states that "Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack."
However, the consequences of having claws be considered as unarmed are significant:
-"If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity."
-you also provoke attacks of opportunity if your standard action in a threatened square is an attack (unarmed) (reference: Table: Actions in Combat).
-if claws are are considered unarmed attacks, then what is preventing all natural attacks as counting as unarmed?
-You would have to burn a feat slot in order to grab improved unarmed strike so you are considered as armed.
It should be noted however that natural attacks states "Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks," and it appends "(attacks made without a weapon)." Once again, this seems odd since natural weapons or unarmed strikes qualify for the Versatile Weapon spell, and unarmed strike also can be choose as a weapon focus (I would hope that a natural weapon would also qualify for this feat).
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I believe you can attack with all natural attacks alongside your normal weapon attacks.
To start with this one, I will tackle some basic rules/terms for taking actions in combat.
Combat terms and rules:
Melee Attack - standard action (used for an attack of opportunity, and can be used with with a combat maneuver such as sunder or disarm)
Attack Action - Standard Action (can be a melee attack or combat maneuver such as trip)(can be coupled with a move action)
Full Attack - Full-Round Action ("If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.")
Additionally
"Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack
After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action."
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Base Attack Bonus (BAB) states that "Each creature has a base attack bonus and it represents its skill in combat. As a character gains levels or Hit Dice, his base attack bonus improves. When a creature’s base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack in combat when he takes a full-attack action (which is one type of full-round action—see Combat)."
Natural attacks state, "You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks)," and "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."
Note: "Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5"
It is my understanding then, that at full BAB, a PC can use a manufactured weapon will all its BAB increments and still attack with all of his or her available* natural attacks - albeit all natural attacks in this manner are considered secondary and take a -5 penalty to attack rolls.
*claws that are holding objects or manufactured weapons do not qualify as available
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Pathfinder: 2 Talon Attack or 2 Attacks? claims that RAW states you as a PC only gets one of your two claw attacks in an attack action while a beast/monster gets both in a single attack action.
Does anyone know of a written rule that supports this or clearly refutes it?
Hey everyone. This week was a busy one for me, and just today I had the chance to check back on this post. I appreciate the feedback you have provided. Going into this I knew what I was proposing was "a truly insane question," because applying power attack in this way would result in a lot of broken things.
I do not anticipate that I will make any changes to how I am applying the bonus damage any time soon (not that my DM would allow it anyway ;P).
Derklord did provide a good reference to the rules that relates to the question.
Overall, I am willing to just chalk this up to the -for lack of better words- faults in the English language.
blahpers wrote:
Dragonarkon wrote:
Now, looking again specifically at, "+2 bonus on all melee damage rolls," I have interpreted it as all rolls as a cohesive bunch, but it now seems to me that it could also be interpreted as +2 "per melee damage dice rolled"
It could, if you hate English.
Having learned Spanish as a second language in my later years, I can understand the sentiment. After all, "English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages, knocks them down in a dark alley and then goes through their pockets for loose grammar."
I have been using Power Attack with a number of my characters, and I seem to understand it the same way everyone else sees it (based on the forums I have looked through I seem to use it the same way), however I looked at it again today, and I saw it in a slightly different light.
I am mostly just curious, can I interpret the rules in this way?
The text I want to focus on is the opening sentence, "Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls."
Over the years I have been taking the minus penalty from the attack rolls as indicated (e.g. my bab of +1 + d20 -1 power attack), and for damage I have been adding the bonus to the weapon as such: e.g. Longsword (one-handed) 1d8 + STR mod + 2 power attack damage.
Now, looking again specifically at, "+2 bonus on all melee damage rolls," I have interpreted it as all rolls as a cohesive bunch, but it now seems to me that it could also be interpreted as +2 "per melee damage dice rolled"
What this means is that there are two different outcomes if I have a weapon with multiple damage dice. Lets say I use the spell Lead Blades to up the damage dice on the Longsword from a 1d8 to a 2d6; Under the original interpretation this would mean that we would have the following equation:
PAD = Power Attack Damage
STR Mod = 2 for this example
Longsword (one-handed) 2d6 + 2 PAD + 2 STR
The range of damage dealt is 6 to 16
However, if we interpret it as a +2 per dice roll we get the following:
Longsword (one-handed) 2d6 + (2*2 PAD) + 2 STR
The range of damage dealt is 8 to 18
Personally, I would be fine if I could interpret it to be +2 "per melee damage dice rolled," - I like to min-max - but I also understand this could quickly grow out of control for a DM. The second interpretation would mean that it would then increase the damage gap even further if you then apply this to two-handed weapon damage rolls.
"This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls."
Longsword (two-handed) 2d6 + (2*3 PAD) + 3 STR
The range of damage dealt is 10 to 21
Then we have to consider vital strike
Normally I would calculate it out to be (continuing with the two-handed)
Longsword (two-handed) (2 * (2d6)) + 3 PAD + 3 STR
The range of damage dealt is 10 to 30
However with Power Attack would look like this:
Longsword (two-handed) (2 * (2d6)) + (4*3 PAD) + 3 STR
The range of damage dealt is 19 to 39
NOTE: Vital Attack's "Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses," meaning that Power Attack bonus damage is applied afterward, but since we are still rolling multiple damage dice, it would still apply +3 to each d6.
