Draajen's page

When i converted him to second edition i did: Monk with Rogue dedication and it worked out well.

Pathos wrote:

No... because they are both Enhancement bonuses.

Can we get an official ruling on this?

The book says treat this bonuses at temp for the first 24 hours. So with int you wouldn't get bonus spells, skills, or languages until after 24 hours. However they still are an enchantment bonus. The book also says if you remove the item you have to wear it for another 24 hours before the bonus is no longer treated as a temporary bonus.

Draajen wrote:

So first off you can't add +5 to the DC of brewing a potion because there is no DC and no roll.

Huh?

"To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item." -- Magic Item Creation

"Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (alchemy)" -- Creating Potions

Wow my bad, Sorry I just started playing pathfinder in January and I only read the section on potions in the feat descriptions, in the alchemist section, and in determining the base price. I didn't realize there was another section about creating magic items in general that relates to potions. I guess my GM never required me to roll for a level 1 potion since my craft alchemy is so high from being an Alchemist so no real chance of failure.

So first off you can't add +5 to the DC of brewing a potion because there is no DC and no roll. When you make a potion it takes 2 hours if the price is under 250gp or 1 day for 1000gp base price. So if the item isn't on their formula list they can't brew it.

Brew Potion (Item Creation)

You can create magic potions.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower
spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.
Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp
or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each
1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you
set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the
spell in question and no higher than your own level. To
brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one
half this base price. See the magic item creation rules in
Chapter 15 for more information.
When you create a potion, you make any choices that
you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever
drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Second the Alchemist rules on Brew potion overwrite the normal Brew potion rules so an Alchemist can make a potion of any formula they know like a personal spell like shield.

Brew Potion (Ex): At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew

Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of
any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist
level as his caster level

In addition:

An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs and time requirements.

So with that in mind in theory you could use independent research like a wizard does to add a new spell to your formula list then make a potion out of it.

Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the

time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should
probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per
level of the spell to be researched. This should also require
a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.

So, I've been knee-deep in this Alchemist since the beta was first released and much was cleared up in the revision, but some major points remain.

Is the Alchemist an arcane spellcaster for the purposes of feat qualification, such as Arcane Strike and Craft Wondrous Items?

Extracts say "as if imbibing a potion". This would suggest that you must draw the potion (move-equivalent action) and then drink it (standard action). Surely they did not intend for a full-round action to be used for an extract that can only target the Alchemist.

Well since it only says "An extract is “cast” by drinking it,

Since bombs have more detail "Creating and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity."

Since to create a bomb you need to take your catalyst vial and infuse it then throw it all as a standard action I would treat grabbing and drinking a extract as a standard action. It would seem that Alchemists are more used to grabbing and drinking stuff than other people. Since they have sleight of hand as a class skill it would make sense that they could grab something and drink as one standard action.

This would also play into the accelerated drinker trait since if an Alchemist was already holding the item it would be much easier for them to drink it instead of having to take it an drink.

I was looking at applying the giant template to a large animal and looking for a leg to stand on like for a Deinonychus it says "Conversely, you can either increase the deinonychus to Large size and its Hit Dice to 8 or simply apply the giant and advanced simple templates to create a formidable megaraptor."

I know I could ask a my GM to allow me to make a larger animal but it seems like it would be easier to convince if there was an animal already marked as you can make this bigger.

James:
Thanks that what I was hoping for. Can't wait for the Advanced player guide (I'm loving playing an Alchemist) and the Bestiary 2 to come out.

Beast Shape I and II have a lot more choices than Beast Shape III.

With the lower beast shapes you can go with animals that have many attacks or one more damaging attack for vital strike.

It seems like Beast Shape III really leans towards a vital strike path. All the animals have one strong attack other than an elephant with two attacks and a Giant Squid with 4 attacks but is aquatic.

Seems like there needs to be a 3 or 4 attack huge animal choice.

When Magic fang is cast on unarmed strike does it work on both hands? Or do you have to cast it twice.

Also Same question for when you have 2 claws do you have to cast Magic Fang on both claws or do you just cast it on the claw attacks.

Hmm. Plenty of monsters in the bestiary have improved grapple without the improved unarmed strike. I'd say that's because natural attacks function similarly to improved unarmed strikes. You'd have to ask your GM, but I'd let you take the improved grapple chain without IAS. (usuable only under the effects of the mutagen) That would fit thematically I think.

You may want the dodge, mobility, spring attack chain, and if you do you'll want vital strike. Depending on your Dex, with you're large size and reach combat reflexes could be nice. Eventually maybe take imp crit for your natural attacks.

Thank you for the feedback. I was looking at Improved grapple and disliked that improved unarmed strike was a requirement, I thought about asking about taking it without the requirements. That was one of the things that was bothering me it seemed like there would be some good feats but the requirements weren't fitting with an Alchemist.

I would have to ask for house rules on those things. For instance two weapon rend would be great if could take it while only under the effect of mutagen or improved grapple like you said.

I was thinking about going the dodge, mobility, and spring attack chain but I'm more of a front line fighter so I didn't feel it would be as useful as something else. I'm planning on getting an holy amulet of mighty fist when I can so the damage from 2 more holy attacks would normally out damage the one vital attack for a while anyways.

Oh well it seems like I either have to ask for exceptions to some feats or wait to see if there are more relevant feats when the Advanced players guide comes out.

My understanding is you only get bonues up to the actual size of the animal

Ok so I would be able to use Beast Shape III to go into a Dire lion to get rake but I would only get the bonus for Large animal size?

Can you beast shape into any animal within the size catagory or only what is listed.

For instance if I want to beast shape into a dire lion I would need to use Beast shape II to be a large animal, which grants me: climb 30
feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision
60 feet, low-light vision, and scent if the animal has it.

But a lion also has rake and the first time that is available is at Beast Shape III however that is for Diminutive or Huge creature of the animal type which grants: burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60
feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison,
pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web if the animal has it.

So would I be able to use Beast Shape III to turn into a Dire lion so I could have pounce and rake and if so what bonus would I take to size the one from beast shape II since its a large animal or would I still take the bonus from beast shape III.

I've been playing a Human Mutagen Alchemist with a strength of 18. I like the whole Hyde thing the alchemist has going and I want to focus on that. I'm currently level 4 and I've been trying to find some feats that would be decent with melee fighting with Natural attacks since my first Discovery was Feral Mutagen.

So far for fighting I've been using a strength mutagen and enlarging to make my strength 24 and raising my damage to 2 claws at 1d8 and 1 bite at 2d6.

As for feats I took:
Toughness
Defensive combat Training
Power Attack

At this point I can't really think of any feat that goes oh ya that fits. So my current thoughts were Improved Natural Attack(claws or bite) or Weapon Focus (claws or bite).

Maybe there will be some new feats that fit better when the Advanced players guide comes out, like maybe someway to do a rend or a grab with my natural weapons but so far nothing stands out for this type of build.

Anyone have an idea for feats that I might just be overlooking or not fully appreciating?

Thanks

Draajen wrote:

I thought it was mentioned in the final round of play testing discussion that the Alchemist could brew potions what weren't normally allowed to be brewed like shield. The Alchemist list of formulae superseded the normal rules for Brew Potion because as a class bonus feat it has different rules only restricting the potions to any formulae he knows.

If you can find that anywhere, Draajen, that would perfectly answer my question.

There were many posts on this during the playtest and the general consistence was that an Alchemist could brew anything from his formula list that he knew. I didn't find a post where this was said officially but here are some of the discussions on it.

Alchemist Brew Potion

Brew Potion Boost

Thoughts on Alchemist

I thought it was mentioned in the final round of play testing discussion that the Alchemist could brew potions what weren't normally allowed to be brewed like shield. The Alchemist list of formulae superseded the normal rules for Brew Potion because as a class bonus feat it has different rules only restricting the potions to any formulae he knows.

"At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew
Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of
any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist
level as his caster level."

One fun thing I wanted to do with this was have an Alchemist with Feral Mutagen (giving 2 1d6 claws and 1 1d8 bite) using enlarge person and INA.

So you could have the bite do 3d6 or the claws doing 2d6 each depending on if you buffed claws or bite.

Draajen wrote:

Rezdave wrote:

compared to Weapon Focus at +2

you are confusing Weapon Focus with Weapon Specialization.

Not confusing, just mis-typing and poorly proof-reading. My bad.

[

Draajen wrote:

would INA enchant both the front and rear claws or just the front.

Minor point, but INA is [Ex] rather than [Su], so you probably mean "enhance" rather than "enchant". It will continue to function in an anti-magic field.

Tag ... you're it on semantics/proof-reading :-)

R.

Bah, you got me I was replying quickly and glazed over the reply, I did mean to type enhance.

Once point about Weapon Specialization you have to have Weapon Focus and be a 4th-level fighter so a lion couldn't take it or a non fighter class with a natural attack.

You have mentioned it a few times that INA is a poor feat.Maybe I'm not understanding some of the other feats out there but what would you suggest other than power attack for combat with natural weapons.

Draajen wrote:

In the case of an animal like a dire lion if you improved claws and used rake would the rake damage also go up?

I would say no, since there's at least one creature who does less damage with its rake attacks than with its claw attacks (namely the griffon).

In the case of a griffon the rake is done with the rear claws which are 1d4. The griffon also has 2 talons in the front that deal 1d6. I haven't looked at every creature but so far every one that I've looked at that has a claw attack and rakes with it does the same damage as the claw attack.

I guess in the lion case the question would really be would INA enchant both the front and rear claws or just the front.

OTOH, I do feel that the average +1 hp increase in damage dealt per attack (+0.5 for the little guys) offered by the feat is hardly worth it, compared to Weapon Focus at +2 or any number of other feats with greater benefit. I rarely use it any more in monster design. This fact does make it tempting to institute a "Half-Feat" system for "weaker" feats or else institute a House Rule that INA affects all natural attacks. Dragons will like that one, so I find making it a "half-feat" per attack form a better system.

FWIW,

Rez

Unless I'm misunderstanding you you are confusing Weapon Focus with Weapon Specialization. Weapon Focus only gives a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. There are very few feats that bump up damage it self. While something like Power Attack is normally better for damage INA has no draw back.

yes if it you choose claws it effects both claws (or as many claws as the creature has in the case of a creature that gets more then two claw attacks such as a girallon.

technically by the book it would not increase the lions rake attacks, though I think that it would make sense to do so.

Thanks, that's what I thought, so a special that works on the claws like rake or rend would be left up to the GM but normally makes senses to do so imo.

Improved Natural

Attack Attacks made by one of this creature’s natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

Improve natural attack says choose one of the creature's natural attack forms. So I assume if you picked claws it would effect both claws and not just one. If I'm wrong then the rest of the question doesn't matter.

In the case of an animal like a dire lion if you improved claws and used rake would the rake damage also go up?

I agree, with contact poison you will poison yourself and an increased chance of poisoning yourself with injury poison. But if your immune to poisons i don't see any reason at all why you couldn't apply poison to your natural weapons.

Thanks that what I was thinking but was just checking to see if I missed something in the wording of "Weapon" vs "Natural Weapon".

Draajen wrote:

If you have the poison use class ability and then gain natural attacks either through Alter self or in the case of an alchemist Feral Mutagen can you add poison to the attacks.

For instance you have 2 claws and a bite with no natural poison can you add poison to any of your natural weapons or do they have to be regular weapons?

Thanks.

Uhm... I don't know about anyone else, but applying a poison to a bite attack sounds to me like a Very Bad Idea (tm). Unless there's specialized equipment like a false tooth or something involved.

Injury poisons you might be able to get away with on claws, but contact poisons are right out. I'd probably up the chances of you poisoning yourself though, perhaps on a natural 2-3. That's obviously a house rule though.

I was just wondering if there is anything to stop you from putting poison on a natural weapon. I understand that there could be a chance of poison your self on attacks. However at level 10 an alchemist becomes completely immune to poison so at that point there isn't any danger just the trying to find the rule of using poison on natural weapons.

If you have the poison use class ability and then gain natural attacks either through Alter self or in the case of an alchemist Feral Mutagen can you add poison to the attacks.

For instance you have 2 claws and a bite with no natural poison can you add poison to any of your natural weapons or do they have to be regular weapons?

Thanks.

Do Alchemist levels act as caster levels for create wand/rod/staff/ring/wonderous item? If so would they stack with Wizard levels? Witch levels?

Alchemist levels do not count as caster levels.

There was a thread with these question earlier but it seems most people talked about the other questions. I'm pretty curious about these so I decided to make a new thread. References would be helpful.

Do the extend potion and eternal potion discoveries work on extracts? MaverickWolf said no, but I have trouble understanding why that would be the case. To me Extend is like a metamagic, so why wouldn't it work for the Alchemist's "spells"? I realize that potions are a big part of the Alchemist, especially now that they get brew potion for free, but even brewing potions is costly, Especially compared to wands and other spell casters.

Does the extended splash radius of explosive bomb work with other bomb types? I know in specifically states that bomb discovery do not stack unless specifically stated, but the wording is a little funny and I could see the argument either way. it doesn't bother me if it doesn't transfer, but it would be awesome if it did.

It has been stated that by Jason that eternal and extend potion only work on potions, this caused a lot of confusion before Alchemist could make potions (IIRC). It's believed to be done for balance reasons since potions can only go up to level 3.

As far as bombs are concerned you can only have one type of bomb at a time for instance acid bomb can't be used with sonic bomb. It is worded that explosive bomb is a type of bomb so following that logic you can't have an acid bomb that has a splash of 10 and catches the target on fire. However it seems that precise bomb is a modifier for your bombs so all your bombs could use precise bomb. The wording on those two are very similar so I could be mistaken and I hope this things are spelled out before it gets printed.

Dragonborn3 wrote:

MaverickWolf wrote:

Also, I think alchemists should gain the ability to make potions above 3rd level, either automatically as they level, or through discoveries. I think they should be much better at this than anyone else. It would certainly make Brew Potion seem much more interesting.

2:1 Someone somewhere on these boards has or will say the Alchemist is already better at Brewing because he gets the feat at first level. Bah! I agree higher "spell" level potions should be possible for the Alchemist, but maybe not above 5th.

That seems fair. I could see a single discovery only, allowing up to 5th level potions. Higher than that may be pushing it (especially with the alchemists extend and eternal potion abilities).

Because of extend and eternal potion, I think if this would be better if an Alchemist got "Brew Elixir" at level 10 which would allow you to make an Elixir from higher level extracts but since its an Elixir you couldn't make it permanent.

This might have been covered elsewhere, but quick question regarding Nightmare. How does this mechanic work? Does the Alchemist imbibe the Nightmare extract and then is able to "cast" it on another? Or does it assume you have Infusion and are tricking (or forcing) someone to drink it?

EDIT: In other words, is the imbiber of the extract always the target? If not, then aside from self only spells, targeted spells like Cure might be broken since you could technically "cast" it on another person. This would also remove a LOT of the benefit from Infusion.

EDIT 2: Replaced "potion" with "extract" where appropriate.

EDIT 3: "An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking
alchemist."

So, that answers that. So you would have to either trick or force someone into drinking the Nightmare extract to get the proper use out of it AND have the Infusion discovery.

Nightmare:

So the Alchemist drinks the extract which is casting the spell, then they make a connection with the the creature they are trying to afflict the nightmare on. The Will Save Modifier is adjust by knowledge of the creature and by connection.

Also, I think there should be a Discovery, maybe around level 8 that allows an alchemist to Brew ANY potion from any spell list, using a Craft Alchemy of DC 20 + spell level or caster level, like a warlock's Imbue Item ability.

In addition, he should be able to brew potions of spells upto 1/2 his class level.

I was going to add, "upto a maximum of 9th level at 18th level," then remembered all the cool meta-magic feats. A maximized regenerate might be useful at 20th level, you know?

The major issue I see with something like this is an alchemist can make a potion effect permanent if you go past level 3 on potions you could have some serious balance issues. However that could be fixed with a discovery or a class feature at a higher level that is Brew Elixir which could let you make an Elixir or a higher level extract which you couldn't make permanent.

Disappointed
-True Mutagen is worthless because the Discovery "Grand Mutagen" already adds a +6 armor and +8 to primary stat, +6 to secondary, and +4 to tertiary. So I should blow my grand discovery on something that lowers the primary stat and raises the tertiary stat by +2? No thank you. Instead, I'd recommend having the True Mutagen bonuses stay the same, but having them STACK with "Grand Mutagen". That would be well worth it.

This was stated by Jason as being a misprint in the "UPDATE - A few simple Corrections " sticky. True mutagen gives +8 to all physical stats as an alchemical bonus.

Hey there all,

Pg 6: The grand mutagen ability was changed so that is provides an alchemical bonus, not an enhancement bonus.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I posted this before the update but it looks like it was still missed:

"True Mutagen: The alchemist’s mutagen now grants a +8
bonus to his natural armor score and a +6 enhancement
bonus to his Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution"

Not only does it still provide an enhancement bonus instead of alchemical bonus like the rest. But it also looks like its providing the numbers from before the update, it seems with the current scheme it should provide +8 alchemical bonus, also it should clear like the rest of the mutagen discoveries do about minus to other stats, because as its worded it seems like it would provide no minus, to int, wis, or cha.

the new formulae list is on page 49

Ah thanks should finish reading before I ask questions ;)

In the original alchemist class and the updated it says:

"Although alchemists don’t actually cast spells, they do
have a formulae list that determines what extracts they
can create (see page 7)."

However in the new guide there is no page 7 with formulae list and it also says:

"To learn or use an extract, an alchemist must have
an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the extract’s
level."

"An alchemist may know any number of formulae. He
stores his formulae in a special
tome called a formula book."

And goes on to talk about how you can learn from a Wizard's spell book. So does this mean that Alchemists can start off learning only the items that were on the old formulae list that is no longer in this guide or is it now open to any spells that fulfill the requirements.

Karui Kage wrote:

Not much noticed so far, I'm loving the new uses for the Discoveries! One thing I saw was that the first Mutagen grants an 'alchemical' bonus to one of the physical scores, but the other enhanced Mutagens from Discoveries grant 'enhancement' bonuses instead.

Ah... good catch. That should be alchemical.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Also for True Mutagen it only gives "a +6 enhancement bonus to his Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution."

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

Since it says "Creating a bomb requires a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity as the alchemist infuses the catalyst vial with magical energy." I've been assuming that you can decide to make a bomb special on the turn you juice it up for throwing.

Doesn't it say something to the effect that you make up vials of normally inert material that are made explosive when you infuse some of your magical aura into them?

You create the catalyst vials at any point, so normally at the start of the day. Once you have the catalyst you "infuses the catalyst vial with magical energy." The infusing sets what type of bomb it is and it is a move-equivalent action.