Name: Naga’s Champion
Race: Nagaji
Class: Bloodrager (Crossblooded Rager) 8
Adventure: Escape from Old Korvosa
Location: Vencarlo’s Estate
Catalyst: Splitting the Party
The Gory Details:
After breaking down Vencarlo’s front door, the party split up to search the house. The Ranger scanned the study, the Magus examined the pantry, and the Oracle looked around the living room. Naga’s Champion rushed ahead (as was his tendency), and rifled through Vencarlo’s personal quarters.
The Red Mantis assassin waited until he was sure no-one else was coming up the stairs, before dropping down from the rafters and activating his prayer attack. Three failed Will saves later, the assassin’s sabres were on either side of the big guy’s neck.
The assassin actually rolled pretty low for damage—N.C. only needed to pass a DC 28 Fort save to avoid instant death.
He rolled a 25.
The rest of the party were too busy fighting the other assassin (who had narrowly failed to kill the party Oracle) to notice that their big scaly friend was nowhere to be seen. Thankfully, the Magus was able to rescue N.C.’s body from the flames, and put him into her Handy Haversack. He’ll likely come back, sooner or later – and maybe he’ll learn something from the experience.
Probably not, though.
(Also, this technically marks my first “player kill” as a GM. Yay? :P)
Even though it's just a small part, I'm really happy that I helped inspire someone else's work and grateful that you mentioned me.
Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy where my heart used to be.
As for the guide itself, I had completely overlooked these Subdomains when they came out, and I'm very glad that you wrote this guide so that myself and others can get a better picture of how they measure up and how they could be used.
I most definitely subscribe to the idea of “there are no bad alignments, just bad players”, but I still find this an interesting idea to think about. So here‘s my two CP on the topic.
(Keeping in mind that I am a relative newbie to tabletop gaming, and that these are simply my opinions and experiences.)
9: Neutral Good – While I haven’t GMed for very many of them, I have a hard time picturing a NG character being terribly disruptive. Also, IMHO, the alignment that a lot of adventures are built towards.
8: Chaotic Good – While usually a bit quirky, the CGs I’ve seen have always been good to game with.
7: Chaotic Neutral – I’m not trying to be contrarian with this; CN is the most popular alignment in my area and, minus a couple of inter-party scuffles, they usually play nice with everyone else at the table.
Perhaps part of that is due to their shared focus on freedom and individuality – but that’s just conjecture on my part. That being said, I usually make sure the player in question isn’t trying to play Evil-but-totally-not-Evil before the game begins.
6: Neutral Evil – Alright, so hear me out. Neutral Evil characters are (usually) exceptionally self-centered, but that doesn’t always mean that they are disruptive.
(Story time):
A couple of years ago, I was GMing for a group that had a NE Rogue in it. Sounds like a classic recipe for trouble, right? As it turned out, however, this player knew how to play NE to a T. True, his character was a vicious, selfish, revenge-driven loner – but he was also cunning, pragmatic, and possessed a silver tongue that saved himself and his party time and time again. He knew that he couldn’t complete his personal quest without the aid of his party, and while he wasn’t exceptionally nice to them (he had a tendency to shut them up with a quick punch to the nethers), the rest of the group looked to him as a merciless but skilled leader.
Again, this dips back to the idea I mentioned above, but I think that this also shows a good example of how a NE character can contribute a lot to a group when played right.
5: Lawful Evil – As several other posters have said, LE characters tend to be your best bet if you want to run an Evil character in a Good group. That being said, I feel that while a Chaotic character can still manage to have some non-disruptive fun in a primarily Lawful party, a strongly Lawful character might be in for a rough time in a more free-spirited group.
4: True Neutral – Though this alignment is a personal favorite of mine, there is an awful lot of variance in what it can represent – and some of the players who do choose it just don’t know what alignment would suit them better, leaving their characters feeling a bit confused and lacking direction or motive.
3: Chaotic Evil – I have very mixed feeling about his alignment. While I personally have a soft spot for it, there are just so many ways it could go wrong. That being said, similar to my NE story above, there are also plenty of ways to get it “right”.
A small tip to anyone GMing for/playing CE characters:
One day, while doing some research on Psychopaths and Sociopaths (as you do), I came across something very interesting – while Psychopaths are often unable to form deep emotional attachments to anyone or anything, Sociopaths will often have one or more people or objects that they are greatly attached to.
Case in point: my group’s CE Ranger would likely give his life to save his Animal Companion (a vicious eagle who is just as bloodthirsty as he is), or our group’s Oracle (who is his childhood friend).
Also, gods help you if you try to go after his friends while he’s around.
(One more note: I know that not every CE character is a Psychopath or a Sociopath – it’s just that they seem to be common personality types among the CEs I’ve seen.)
2: Lawful Neutral – While I have seen this alignment only rarely, and I am currently GMing for a very well-played one, I can definitely imagine this alignment being a real spanner in the works for a lot of groups. Again, you can find lots of variance in what this actually represents.
1: Lawful Good – I tried very hard to not put this here. I re-jigged this list several times, but LG remains the only alignment that I would be worried to see on someone’s character sheet. Part of this is to do with my aforementioned local meta of Chaotic characters – I would feel bad for anyone trying to play a Paladin in my area – but also, to me at least, this alignment seems to be the hardest to really play well. If played badly, it can come across as Lawful Stupid; but even if played masterfully, it can be a real damp towel on everyone else’s game. This doesn’t even have to be caused by the direct actions of the player or character in question.
A little bit of conjecture and allegory:
Imagine you were an adventurer. Now imagine that you, and most of your party, were pretty easygoing sorts – you didn’t worry overmuch about doing the “right” thing, and although you all may have wildly differing viewpoints on some subjects, you generally get along alright.
Now imagine the final member of your party was basically Mr. Rogers, but a Wizard.
He was nice, he was intelligent, and he never really caused trouble. His only wish for the rest of the group was that they got along with each other, and that they always tried to be the best version of themselves that they could be.
That’s all solid stuff. I would enjoy playing with that character, and I would enjoy playing with that group.
The problem, in my mind, is as follows: because of the well-mannered Wizard tagging around with the group, there is all of a sudden a feeling of… limitation. Sort of like how you might feel a bit uncomfortable swearing in front of your grandparents, you would likely feel a bit uncomfortable doing something – anything – that could be construed as morally questionable while in a group with this guy.
In this way, even though this character isn’t doing anything purposefully to disrupt the group, his presence and attitude affects the way the other characters act, or feel like they should act.
Yes: most adventures are made with a party of primarily Good characters in mind. However, there is also usually some leeway given – with the idea that a lot of the time, there will also be some not-so-by-the-book characters involved in saving the day.
I think it boils down to this; LG, being something of an "ideal" alignment, can end up changing the course of the game and clashing with the party more often than most other alignments.
TLDR:With so much trouble in PUGs, it's kinda hard bein' good old Lawful G.
…That turned out a lot longer than I thought it would be. Ah well.
Just my two CP on the issue, mostly echoing what Greatbear said above; if you are looking for a class which draws power from a pantheon of deities, I would recommend the Oracle, and even more so the Shaman.
The source of an Oracle’s power is left intentionally vague, so you have plenty of wiggle room there, while gaining powers from a variety of sources is the Shaman’s whole shtick in a nutshell.
In my mind, you could also make a fun case for a Reliquarian Occultist: each of your Implements could represent the blessings of your patrons, channeled through objects symbolic to them and their spheres of influence.
To me, the Cleric seems like it may be the most difficult class to make work with this concept. But with a permissive GM who's willing to work with you, it shouldn't be too hard to sort out via houserules.
While (in my opinion) it would be a reasonable interpretation of the rules to say that you should get both Animal Companions, I can also definitely see your GM saying that you don’t (or shouldn’t) for the sake of balance – and game time.
Also, if it were up to me, I would definitely pick Saurian over Animal*. Dinosaurs are rightly terrifying, and it fits your patron’s theme more than most, in my opinion.
*Unless there is a very specific non-dinosaur AC that you have your eye on.
First of all, thanks to everyone for all the great feedback. I’ve read through it all, and have now updated the guide to version 2.0!
2.0 Changelog:
Changes:
- Added Feats and Traits section under Demoniac
- \ Added the Damnation Feat Chain + Dark Magic Affinity
- Mentioned potential loophole in Flauros’ Obedience (Incense + Mending/Make Whole)
- Mentioned that you could carry around the required creatures for Lamashtu’s Obedience
- Mentioned that you could potentially complete Zura’s Obedience with the help of a Familiar or Animal Companion
- Mentioned under Warpriest entry about utilizing the Madness Blessing to clear up Energumen
- Added Items section under Demoniac
- \ Added the Orb of Foul Abaddon + the Padma Blossom
Bugfixes:
- Edited Flauros’ entry to properly state that you don’t have to use intelligent creatures in the sacrifice.
- \ As a result of this, Flauros has now become Orange/Green (up from Orange)
- Mentioned the inconsistencies with Mestama’s second Boon.
Now to reply to some feedback:
deuxhero wrote:
Lots of useful stuff
Thank you for your suggestions, deuxhero. I have incorporated them into the guide – I especially appreciate the fact checking on Flauros. Because of your suggestions and feedback, he’s gone up a colour.
Kris Verschaeve wrote:
The major madness blessing allows you to suspend all confusion in the area as a swift action allowing you to cast a standard action spell that clears the condition permanently or make sure you are not afflicted for a couple of minutes when the energumen has already cleared.
Nice catch. I had completely forgotten about the Confusion-based effects of the Madness Blessing, probably because most characters would have little use for them. For a Demoniac, though, it fits pretty well perfectly.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Whoops: found the magic item that makes Energumen work for you. It's the Padma Blossom.
That item is a pretty sweet pickup for a lot of characters – particularly ones that have a tendency to get confused/feared on a regular basis. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!
Reduxist wrote:
I was hoping someone would make a write-up about these feats sooner or later. Great work!
Personally, I'm partial to Shax's boons. Not only does he grant or possibly even up your sneak attack as a capstone, but his second boon grants you an ability thay works marvelously with the Holy Vindicator PrC. It might not have been the intended use, but turning the classes' Stigmata ability's one drawback into fast healing is functionally funny.
Thank you for the kind words, and I agree: Shax was one of my favorite Demon Lords even before starting to write this guide.
I’ve never really touched the Holy Vindicator before, so I’ll have to get a better look at it. I always assumed it was something Paladin-related; from what I can tell with a cursory glance, it looks quite cool.
Reduxist wrote:
And speaking of Mazmezz, I just built a brawler with the strangler archetype that took her demonic obedience: thanks to her granting Vermin Shape II as an SLA, and considering the fact that many vermin on the list have the grab ability, this is a powerful ability to have.
That was one of the first builds I thought of when I was looking at Mazmezz’s bonuses. I’m also glad to hear of someone using Demonic Obedience “in the wild” – most of the builds I’ve seen posted here have been for NPCs.
*Demonic fist-bump*
Reduxist wrote:
I do have a few questions though:
- If a Knife Master Rogue takes Shax's third boon, do the +3d6 sneak attack die turn into d8's?
- On a completely unrelated note, how do you feel about the nascent demon lords? While they only offer SLA's, aome of them can be pretty powerful.
- Also, have you thought about covering the sacred weapons and domains/subdomains of each lord? For clerics, inquisitors and warpriests, these would help with selecting the right lord to worship.
- I have a feeling that that would be a GM by GM kind of thing. I would probably say that it does, but that’s mostly because I try to throw Rogues a bone.
- To me, none of them seem particularly powerful enough to warrant taking the feat in the first place, with the exception of the Nightripper (depending on whether or not “effects linked to slashing damage” includes attack/damage rolls or not), and maybe Shamira (on account of being pretty good all-around). I might add them at some point, but not right now.
- I thought about it, but I’ve decided for the time being to just leave them to the link to thePathfinder Community page about them.
Once again, thank you very much to everyone that has contributed to this guide so far. I really appreciate it.
Thank you very much, Doug. This is just the sort of reply I was hoping for.
I will likely incorporate a lot of what you've said into the guide - I remember reading about your Demoniac builds in the past, and they are part of the inspiration for this guide as they proved this PrC could work.
Emphasis on "could"; I agree that this PrC, as well as some of the other older ones, are a bit janky to work with. I find that part of the charm, though.
Also, I had completely forgotten about the Damnation Feats.
(Bad demon worshiper, bad.)
But yeah, thank you very much for your feedback. I appreciate the positive reception, and I will continue to update and polish this guide as time goes on - though I'm already itching to start my next one.
Hi everyone! My name is Crimson Cadaver, and I've been a lurker on these forums for about three years now.
Recently, I've felt the need to give something back to the community - the Demoniac has always been one of my favorite Prestige Classes, and I noticed that no one had made a guide for it yet in the seven years it's been around.
Because of that, I have decided to throw my hat into the ring and give this guide-writing thing a go.
