just realized I'll be provoking AoOs when I attempt a combat maneuver with redirection.
hmm....
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A small update: I've decided to kick Improved Trip as trip builds seem to not do very well in the long run. Current feats are Combat Reflexes and Crane Style, and I plan to take Power Attack as soon as possible. I'm using a reach weapon and combined with unarmed attacks, I threaten all squares within 10ft. A bit of change in philosophy that I've had about flowing monk is to do with what part of the combat maneuver to focus on.
So, I'm thinking the focus of this build should be to get as many AoOs as possible, and then to deal good damage on those AoOs when they happen. In my mind, if i miss a couple trips, provoke a similar number of AoOs, and actually deal decent damage on those AoOs, the build is successful. Thoughts?
Ah, yes low fantasy is a bit different from low magic at least in my interpretation of the terms. Low fantasy essentially nerfs all kinds of PCs and the entire world - fighters dont smash things as hard at the same time that wizards dont alter reality as much. I usually prefer a low fantasy campaign (ie 15 point buy characters, etc). Low magic as I am referring to here disproportionately nerfs casters and magic users over other classes or removes them from the game entirely. On this note, do you all have an opinion as to whether casters and martial characters work better at different point buys? Obviously, MAD characters like monks don't do as well on low point buy (poor monks just cant catch a break sometimes), but do fighters make more use of high point buy stats than wizards do?
Seems like the key ingredients to making this tactic work are magic missile and a wis-based character. Are there any other ways to get magic missile on a divine caster besides the naga aspirant? I did a little googling on this, but no dice. Thank you for this extensive list of cool things. A crossblooded Abyssal/Empyreal sorcerer could be a very interesting character indeed. High dex and wis, make use of weapon finesse and claws to do wolf tripping shenanigans. Just as feat-starved as Davor's magus, but then at least the character is a sorc and has lots of spells and such. Might roll up one of these just for fun.
You might consider throwing improvised weapons with throw anything. You could build a monk, perhaps a far strike monk or some kind of brawler.
Maybe a class that uses martial weapons, but can also buff themselves without necessarily needing to buy magic weapons. Warpriests and paladins come to mind.
Avoron and Davor, Seems like the key ingredients to making this tactic work are magic missile and a wis-based character. Are there any other ways to get magic missile on a divine caster besides the naga aspirant? I did a little googling on this, but no dice. Spiritual Weapon is a decent 2nd-level divine spell alternative, but it really seems like you'd want a 1st-level spell to get the most out of toppling spell + wolf style feats. Davor, does the tripping magus you are referring to have 17 wisdom just to qualify for wolf savage? That seems a bit extreme. It's a shame there isn't a wisdom equivalent of a magus. Besides being focused on int instead of wis, the esoteric wolf tripper is a really cool thematic and mechanical idea.
These are the kinds of insights I was hoping to stir up, and thanks to everyone else in this thread for the informative and interesting discussion. Also special thanks to JonathonWilder, Snotlord, and Fergie for pointing me in the direction of other resources which go into detail on this. However, Snotlord, I'm having a hard time finding the low-magic rules in my CRB - are you sure you aren't referencing a different paizo book? A couple of clarifications: 1. What am I hoping to do with these contributions? I'm not actually planning to dm a low-magic pathfinder setting - I was really just interested in the concept and curious about what you all thought, what your experiences are, etc. 2. What sort of low-magic setting did I have in mind? Well, GM 1990 is getting pretty close to what I had conceptualized. Generally no casters (PC or otherwise) except in incredible rare occurrences.
But, more importantly, I wanted to get your guys' thoughts on what a low-magic pathfinder setting should be/what you have actually played. This community always has insightful things to say, and I wanted to pick your collective brain a little.
Wolf Style + Toppling Metamagic, as Avoron said. GET OVER HERE! Wow that seems really good and fun - what class(es) would you roll up around this tactic?
I'm not sure why it'd be okay to kill them but not okay to rip up their face in your efforts to kill them. Well, sorta for the same reason it's often acceptable to execute a criminal, but maybe not acceptable to torture them for hours.
A question about Wolf Savage fluff:
Spoiler:
Whenever you deal a prone opponent at least 10 points of damage with a natural weapon or unarmed strike, you can savage your foe as a swift action. Your victim becomes disfigured unless it succeeds at a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom modifier). The effects of this disfigurement are identical to those of a bestow curse spell (caster level equal to your character level). The wording of this feat is rather harsh - do you think a character could obtain and use this feat if they are a Lawful Neutral monk? A Lawful Good monk? I'm trying to wiggle this feat thematically into my LN flowing monk who is non-aggressive and only believes in fighting to restore order. I like the idea of subduing an aggressive/chaotic opponent, but not so much permanently disfiguring them. Thoughts?
Your AC and CON are very low, you won't be very survivable. I'd drop CHA and raise CON at the very least. I'd also consider dropping STR down to 10 or 12, raising Dex, and go finesse based. It will make you more survivable, and you will still be able to easily trip and debuff. My concern with going the finesse route is that (as per my understanding) it cripples throwing attacks. I like the concept of throwing stones around combat, and then being somewhat defensible when someone gets close. I know it would be mechanically better to drop cha for some more survivability, and I might do that. I was afraid of rping a low cha monk, but, the more I think about it, it would be kinda fun to try to say some wise monk stuff but not be able to phrase it very well. I still don't really like rping unlikable chars, and I'm not crazy about stat breaks that have 7 dumps for 18 in a primary purely for mechanical reasons. These seem like really extreme unlikely individuals. I'm a big believer in playing an interesting char rather than a powerful char, but I understand that there are different and perfectly legitimate philosophies on character creation.
I agree with the above posters that you should try not to sacrifice your interesting moral themes for the sake of getting along with a party member. However, if all attempts to do that are failing, you could have your character go through some sort of religious or moral experience that brings your character around to a more solid alignment that the inquisitor is ok with. How you do this depends on your current alignment and what you want to end up as (Not saying that either has to be perfectly consistent). You could find an old tome that mentions something about your ancestors and either the atrocities they committed or some redeeming act/character trait. This could cause your character to view their past/the voices in their head in a new light or give your char some newfound control over some of their less moral tendencies. Alternatively, you could murder that skulking, sniveling, sneaking, holier-than-thou 'liberator.' Always poking, always prodding, asking questions, nosing through YOUR things! Well you can show that meddlesome rat just what true power looks like.
I am currently in the process of creating a flowing monk char. I'm not terribly concerned with optimizing his damage output, but I also don't want to be useless. The general idea is to be good at flowing monk redirection/defense/tripping, and I've got a little fluff to fit with that mechanical theme. Here's what I have so far: Rejected by society because of an Orc father, Davlamin spent a large portion of his youth meditating on the bank of a nearby river. He grew to appreciate the ordered flow of water - how it smoothed over the chaos in its path and the chaos in his mind. Davlamin learned to flow like the river, allowing the anger of others to pass around him. He carries smooth stones from the river basin which remind him how force can turn the chaotic into ordered uniformity. Half-Orc LN Flowing Monk lvl 1
Rock Climber
Weapons: Unarmed, Stones (river pebbles used as range weapons, identical to shurikens statistically except for B instead of P) Firstly, is what I've got currently reasonable? Secondly, which style feats and feats in general work best with this build?
Thanks!
Wouldn't one of the gods say "That mortal is doing it right!" and just grant the poor guy paladin abilities? I'm only half serious with this question, but in a world with PF style gods, would there even be fighters who lived by the paladin code and didn't end up as paladins? Yeah perhaps this fluff makes the most sense for a character who takes a 1 level dip as something else and goes on to paladin classes. I just like the dramatic scene it creates. To get even more off-topic, there are good gods with great power in PF, but evil still exists. In most settings, I think it could be possible to avoid a god's notice even if you're doing your very best to follow their code and promote the causes they care about. Reasons for this might be some kind of curse or perhaps that god is legitimately busy fighting a great war against evil in the next country over.
Your two examples and mine I think work well for a young/naive character striving to be a paladin even without the divine powers that they are famous for. Maybe hoping that if they try very hard to help people, the god of that code may grant them the power to help others even more effectively. Interesting (if somewhat tragic) roleplaying idea - a claimed paladin who is good at bashing evil with a sword, but just wants to be able to heal the injured. This character often attempts to lay on hands when someone is sick or mortally wounded and cries out for their god to allow them to help those in need. Some examples for claimed paladins who are a bit older and wiser than our earlier examples: "I'm just as much a paladin as anyone who can conjure flashy lights." "Well maybe I'm not a real paladin in that sense, but what makes a real paladin anyway?"
If you're a dm, I feel sorry for the party members around your table. NO you may NOT roleplay that way - DO YOU THINK THIS IS A GAME?!?!?
With the inclusion of the Combat Stamina system, you can seriously mitigate some of the problems that plague maneuvers at later levels. I'm not sure if there's a standard option presented for this, but with Agile Maneuvers and Combat Stamina, you can spend stamina to count as a larger size creature for any maneuver, up to Colossal. You can cancel out and sometimes reverse the size category problems you suffer in late game with this, depending on how large your foe is. With that in mind, how do you think Wolf Style stacks up against Snake Style and Crane Style? Also thanks, I didn't know about this before your post. Combat Stamina is pretty neat.
I absolutely love the Pathfinder system, and in general I like magic. However, at times I want to play a somewhat more 'realistic' roleplaying experience with significantly toned-down or virtually non-existent magic. I understand this is possible with pathfinder rules, but how much of a hassle is this? Is it common practice to run this - have you or someone you game with played a low magic pathfinder setting? If so, what sorts of things on the boundary between magic and extraordinary ability did you allow and what did you forbid?
I see someone without the class paladin claiming to be a paladin to be something like someone claiming to be a musketeer. (In the sense of the fictional 3 musketeers - soldiers who fight for the common people) People recognize and understand who the musketeers are, and there is a certain degree of fame, respect, and responsibility attached to that title. However, if pressed, possibly both a claimed musketeer and a claimed paladin might admit that "no, I guess I'm not a REAL musketeer yet, but one day I hope to be!" Gaining the right to wear the title of Paladin I think might come from doing brave things to help people, and not so much from being able to perform all the class skills of a Paladin class. Other analogies which I think are less accurate might be 'cowboy' or 'blacksmith.' The difference here being that I feel one has to earn the right to be called a Paladin, and that being referred to as a Paladin in turn earns the claimed Paladin some measure of fame, good will, etc. No one cares as much if you call yourself a cowboy or a blacksmith or an adventurer. This is all purely my opinion and not necessarily supported by Pathfinder texts, but I thought I would join in on a rather lively and interesting discussion
It really fits thematically and mechanically with flowing monk, and I'm considering it as an option with the Half-Orc flowing monk that I'm currently building. Noireve's comment is what concerns me. My flowing monk isn't really an optimized build, but I'm hesitant to pour such a large number of feats into tripping without really doing any serious damage. I feel like Snake Style or Crane Style are both just as good and probably better, and require less off the wall requirements than 9 ranks of knowledge(nature). If anyone would like to change my mind about Wolf Style, I'm all ears. It looks really cool, but I'm just not sure it's worth the investment. =/
I have been reading up on the Samurai class (specifically with the Sword Saint archetype), and noticed that Resolve can clear the fatigued condition. This and the flavor of a raging samurai (maybe half-orc) got me thinking about a Samurai/Barbarian. Is multiclassing these two a good idea? In thinking about this further, removing the fatigued condition from a barbarian is not very difficult, and can be done more reliably with Heart of the Fields (although only 1/day). If multiclassing Samurai and Barbarian is a decent idea, what should the split look like? I was thinking a 1 level dip in barbarian for rage and fast movement, but not sure if I should do more. Has anyone ever played a ragin ronin?
Sorry, Bandw2, I should clarify. Full fighter without any skilly/sneaky stuff doesn't particularly interest me, but Lore Warden definitely does. In fact, I'm leaning towards making a full fighter+lore warden right now. This might start getting off topic, but here is what I've pulled together so far.
Ancestral Arms (Elven Curved Blade)
Power Attack
planning to get Mobility and Improved Disarm at some point.
Thanks for all the suggestions so far, guys.
Lore Warden and Scout are actually both really good ideas that I had looked at before, but excluded for some reason.
I am currently in the early stages of building a Fighter/Rogue character, and I have been surprised at how little there was out there for fighter archetypes, rogue archetypes, and prestige classes that leverage power or flavor from both of these classes. The relevant archetypes I have found are Two Weapon Warrior, Battle Knave, and Silent Warrior. Also the prestige class Crimson Assassin. So, first, a general question: what else is out there in terms of archetypes or prestige classes that address Fighter/Rogues? Secondly, what would apply to the specifics of the character I plan on creating? I plan on making a Half Elf who is primarily a Fighter, but dips into Rogue for sneak attack, skills, and mostly for flavor. I planned on using Bastard Sword and shield, but that isn't set in stone. I would much prefer to stick to paizo stuff and not use third party rules, but I'm interested in anything related to Fighter/Rogues. |