Cilyndros's page

Well, I personally find it likely that classes like the Witch or the Wizard would not see support in the Complete Combat book from an archetype perspective. Paladins and Rangers, while they use magic, are also warriors. Wizards, while they use magic, are NOT warriors.

Just my two cents.

I think this has a lot of potential, especially from a Paladin / Alchemist perspective. while there's not really a lot of playability numbers-wise (you could have the high Str but the CHA of an alchemist is usually low), I could readily see a Palchemist (as I now call them) who realizes his alter-ego is evil being forced to rely on the "temporary alliance" clause of the paladin code to defeat the threat to the entire world using every weapon at his disposal, even if that meant his own mind, and then when everything is safe he could voluntarily imprison himself in the aforementioned Anti-magic Field. Or he could escape, turn his paladin levels into blackguard levels, and be the villain behind an entire campaign....

I don't even see a problem with "switching" the alter-egos after a certain point, as long as you allow the bonuses to follow the "minor" personality. Maybe Armand Grayson realizes as time goes by that it is harder and harder to revert to himself after Cleavin' Cayden is out and about, so he spends one last desperate act to pull the power of the mutagen away from him, relinquishing his "native" hold on the body for the ability to have freedom to act as he sees fit- and the power to do so- a few times per day (I think the active identity technically counts as the soul, but YMMV).

Time to start building this character, I think.

Wait, how'd you gt 15?

10 + 2 Dex + 1 Size + 1 NA = 14.

The base is 14, making it 16 after Racial Adjustments.

Unless I'm mistaken, they have the extra advantage of being a Small race whose speed is 30' / round. That might be a deciding factor as well.
The unarmored AC of a level 1 kobold with base 14 Dex would be 15. Add in a rogue's leather armor for 17 or Mage armor for 19, and the +1 to hit over a similar Medium character on top of the extra mobility and it could make quite the difference.

Optimal? Probably not, but it sounds like fun!

That's my take.

I had a homebrew world once with just this sort of duality, though it was a world without Divine casters at all (the gods warred among themselves and their ichor rained from the heavens, ravaging the land).

Wizards maintained that magic uncontrolled (read: spontaneously cast) was dangerous and could not be allowed, so sorcerers (and warlocks, since this was 3.5) were hunted. There were even magic means of detecting spontaneous powers. Most cities had mages guarding their gates and everyone was tested for "unauthorized magic" prior to entrance- a sorcerer could defeat this by exhausting his spell slots, but warlocks had little recourse short of sneaking into a city.

I added a mechanic that replicated the effect of uncontrolled magic on spontaneous arcane casters- the "sorcerous mien." After casting a spell, a taint lingered around the sorcerer, giving him a penalty equal to his sorcerer level on all Charisma checks save Intimidate, to which the level was added instead. The duration was based on the spell slot used and it stacked with itself (the duration only).

Druids could use the Heal skill to effectively heal wounds, but there were no longer clerics. The only divine caster in the entire world was the sister of a PC, and the gods kept fighting over her, forcing her into 20 levels of Favored Soul off and on as the plot required it.

Hope this helps.

Further thoughts- if your players are experienced, SCARE them a little. Take the stats on some CR- 1 or 2 creatures, then repackage them as something completely different and higher CR.

It's a goblin shaman that looks JUST like a succubus and it's controlling a horde of dretches (the goblins)!

It's an enraged bulette (with the stats of a rhinoceros or a hyena)!

Or keep them the same basic level- maybe those wolves are really just furry little 2nd level rogues with Improved Trip?

Or spice up the "orcs attack" model with some crazy tactics. Maybe the area is known to contain some large burrowing creatures and the orcs have been using their tunnels to stealth-raid. Have the PCs chase them into the tunnels and make the larger CR creature (what burrows? Purple Worms? Ankhegs?) sort of an "environmental hazard" or even a trap (if player steps in square X, the Ankheg will attempt to bite him, +6 to hit, 1d4+2 damage). Make sure the orcs or other baddies can get bitten, too.

Take a page out of 4E and do "skill encounters" where there are massive consequences to roleplaying challenges- better beat this Diplomacy check or the guards will lock you up, saying that you match the descriptions of a group of thieves who killed a shopkeep yesterday. If you do, they'll give you instructions to go to the king. Several Diplomacy, Bluff, Knowledge: Royalty, or other rolls later and they are part of an elaborate plot to oust the REAL killers- which may or may not be anytime soon!

Thinking about it, I ran a game once where the party of first-level characters encountered a Balor.

Keep in mind I did NOT say they FOUGHT the Balor.

They did fight a group of bandits who ambushed the caravan they were guarding, and the Balor came in and rescued the imprisoned elder vampire they were unwittingly transporting.

Then they opened the first of the Seals that would cause a permanent planar conjunction with the Nine Hells and the Prime Material.

Then they felt responsible for it and vowed to undo what they had wrought.

This led to two great encounters: the mother Black Dragon and her brood of half-fiendish hatchlings (fought entirely underwater) and the Warlock with his conjoined twin sorcerer brother (who had a secret chamber beneath the floor he could diminsion door into at-will, leaving his double behind).

My group, at level three, just killed an Adult Green Dragon.

A group of marauding orcs had declared war on the dragon and were marching to its lair- right through the town we needed to protect!

While most of us stayed behind training the villagers in fighting techniques, the Paladin took the orcish declaration of war up the mountain and showed it to the dragon, who agreed to fly down the mountain with her (I'll eat you when we're done). As the rest of us fought off increasing numbers of orcs, the dragon swooped down upon the group, his massive jaws opening wide and spitting acid...

...all over the orcs, the commoners, and the party.

"MONSTER!" screamed the paladin, driving her sword into the creature's soft throat, taking away its breath weapon.

Enraged and in pain, it careened into a large oak tree, unseating the paladin. The Oracle (spending 2 Hero Points to come back from the breath attack), ran to a strange staff the orcs were carrying. She pointed it toward the dragon and said something in Orcish, and a beam shot out and withered the dragons scales into nothing.

The ranger ran to the now unmanned but functioning ballista and began to unload 3d8 bolts into the creature while the sorcerer (after getting some healing from the Paladin and the Cleric) cast Enlarge Person on the Paladin.

All of us but the ranger went into negative hit points in that encounter, but we killed the dragon.

WE KILLED THE DRAGON!!!!!!!

Cilyndros wrote:

My two cents:

As my group's "Rules Lawyer," I feel I have to speak to this issue.

I agree with what everyone's been saying regarding the importance of rules and consistency and would like to add an additional layer of nuance to this discussion.

A Rules Lawyer wields the rules like a 2-handed sword with Weapon Focus and Power Attack and is constantly readying actions to swing and crit with them, usually to his advantage.

I find this just as insulting as the earlier post that insulted rules lawyers. What you implied is no better than cheating, IMHO

That is exactly true, and this is why I prefer to make the distinction between a Rules Lawyer and a Rules Advocate. Historically, the term Rules Lawyer has been a highly derisive term and one which DMs dread to hear- this stigma arises from the often unfair "spin" the Lawyer places on his rulings.

I do not feel that this characterization applies in some cases. A superior knowledge of the rules and a desire to see them played out is not a bad thing!

It is insulting in the sense that Rules Lawyering, when taken to mean using the rules for your gain, is not a complimentary term.

If you seek to use the rules neither to attack nor defend but simply to seek consistency, then, in my book, you are not a lawyer or at least not in the negative sense.

I hope this serves to clarify my meaning- I'm at work at the moment so self-editing for tone is difficult at times.

My two cents:

As my group's "Rules Lawyer," I feel I have to speak to this issue.

I agree with what everyone's been saying regarding the importance of rules and consistency and would like to add an additional layer of nuance to this discussion.

A Rules Lawyer wields the rules like a 2-handed sword with Weapon Focus and Power Attack and is constantly readying actions to swing and crit with them, usually to his advantage.

A Rules *Advocate* knows the rules (sometimes as well as the Lawyer, sometimes not) but is only interested in their fair and consistent expression (Weapon Finesse?) and universal application (not really a good feat analog for this one).

As a Rules Advocate with Lawyery tendencies (I like to be right), I would like to offer some tips:

1) Set time limits. Your brother, it appears, is trying to help. If you require page references for rules, give him some time (60 seconds or so is what I use) to locate them. Sometimes it helps to see it on paper.

2) If you are not interested in being corrected during battles at all, that is your prerogative as DM, but it is important to realize how this affects those who "know the rules." Often, those who know the rules well will take actions based on them- for instance, knowing that dropping prone will increase your AC against ranged attacks. If a player drops prone and the DM do not provide the bonus, it is worse than nothing- you have invalidated a strategy and penalized them actions and effectiveness at the same time.
This is not to say that circumstances can never trump rules. If there is some reason that the ranged attackers are not suffering the penalty for shooting the prone player, then the give-and-take needs to occur.
If the CHARACTER would have known that the prone position would not aid him in this instance, then I suggest allowing a rewind to change the circumstance. This is an example where an inaccurate description by the GM (often through no fault of their own) causes a disconnect between player action and logical character response. Be lenient here.
If the PLAYER thinks that something is a sound tactical decision based on a rule but the CHARACTER could not discover this through anything but trial and error, your ruling stands.
If you were unaware of the rule in the first place but do not want to stop to discuss it, consider removing penalties from the player as much as possible (for instance, consider a "free miss" until the character regains his feet or reduce the action for standing up by a small amount).

3) It's your game. If the player comes up with a rule that you don't like, just tell him. "I don't like that rule, it doesn't apply in this situation." He won't like it, but again, as above, try to be lenient toward the consequences the action has or allow revocation of that action altogether.

If the player is trying to gain an advantage with an obscure rule or suggesting that a rule should apply in this situation, try what our group does: odd or even. If he chooses well, let it ride- but make it clear that this is a one-off and not a rule.

4) Save major discussions for after the game, as mentioned.

5) Trust each other. He is not trying to disrupt the game, he just wants to make sure things are fair (assuming he's an advocate, anyway). If he quotes a rule at you, it's because he feels it should apply. Encourage him to trust you back- if you BREAK a rule, it's because you feel the group's experience will be improved thereby.

I hope this helps- my reference abilities are well known in my group, and I love being a living rulebook. At the same time, however, I know that rules can and should be broken now and again, and have learned to accept that.

(@whoever said that)-Also, wings fix all problems, especially when paired with cold beverages!

Shiverscar, I can't disagree. Now I'm left mystified as to why standard orcs can't burn a feat to get tusks, but half-orcs can...

Mysteries of the blood, I suppose...

A half-orc has a direct parent who is an orc. A sorceror with the Orc bloodline has orcish blood somewhere in their history, regardless of their race. A human with orc blood does not a half-orc make. A sorceror with the Arboreal bloodline can't photosynthesize, so you don't get to have tusks.

But, there is an alternative. Use the Racial Heritage feat from the APG and you can take all the half-orc feats and traits you want as a human.

Where is the Orc bloodline from anyway? I've seen it mentioned a few times on the forums, but I'm not sure of the sourcebook.

I would be inclined to agree. My main hangup with this is that, possessing the orc subtype (and the darkvision / light sensitivity) makes me essentially Humanoid (Orc, Human). This denotes, seemingly, much less dilution of the orcish blood than is seen in the half-orc race (as they, even with a 50% dilution of blood, have lost the light sensitivity).

All in all, I can definitely see the suggestion you posed as being effective (especially from a RAW perspective), though I think personally that a house rule would not be far off in this case.

Thank you for the input!

Hello all!

My question is this- can a Human Sorcerer with the Orc Bloodline select Half-Orc feats? It seems odd that they would end up not just counting as orcs but having the actual subtype, but being less able to use feats to be "more orc-like" than half-orcs would (Smash and Razortusk come to mind).

I suppose this argument could be made for other races, but it seems most likely for humans (as they still have the Human subtype as well in the strictest sense, still counting as humans for spell effects- unless they don't?)

Appreciating your thoughts in advance (with apologies if this is duplicated elsewhere)!

Cilyndros