"For the purposes of spells and effects that have a duration of a round or longer or trigger at the beginning of the creature’s round or the start of its turn (such as saving throws against ongoing effects or taking bleed damage), only the monster’s first turn each round counts toward such durations."
Starts next round. Only counts first turns movement.
You are saying that if Combat Patrol is initiated on the first initiative turn of the round for the monster with Dual Initiative, then it should last until the start of the first initiative turn on the following round, and the only movement that would be allowed towards the Combat Patrol's effects would be a single move (as normal for Combat Patrol)?
This is what I figured at first, but I was a bit hesitant because this combo feels like it is too good.
I am curious if anyone else has a differing perspective.
I am curious as to how Dual Initiative interacts with Combat Patrol with regards to the following:
(1) If you start your first initiative turn in a round with Combat Patrol (a full-round action), does it end at the start of your second initiative turn in the same round or does it end at the start of your first initiative turn in the next round?
(2) If you start your first initiative turn in a round with Combat Patrol and IF it lasts until the start of your first initiative turn in the next round, how much movement you have for the Combat Patrol? Would it only only be up to your speed or up to twice your speed?
It is easier to figure out how the two works in conjunction with each other if you initiate Combat Patrol on your second initiative in the round.
I hope to get some opinions and thoughts on both the RAW and RAI of this particular combo. (I'm the GM for my gaming group so I can decide whatever I want on how this works but I do like getting the perspective of others to avoid the horse-blinders bias).
I think there is an error with the Dark Force Adept feat as it lists Dark Force Adept as a prerequisite. I suspect the prerequisite was supposed to be something like "must have at least one of the following class features: arcane pool, grit, ki pool, panache, or touch of corruption."
Sent to those who recently asked for a copy; if I have not sent a copy to you, just ping me on a private message here so that way I can keep track if I missed anyone.
I usually just extract the image from the pdf and save it as a jpeg or png file in Paint, then use Adobe Photoshop to increase the image size/resolution, remove any background that I don't want, crop where needed, and save it again as a jpeg or png. Afterwards I upload it to Roll20 and put it on the map layer. Then I adjust the dimensions of the map image to whatever size I need it at.
Most of the times, you won't get any of the labels on the map itself when you extract (copy) the image in the pdf file but the gridlines will be there.
Only way to avoid the gridlines in the image is if the map in question is from one of the interactive maps or an adventure path with the options to toggle grids on and off.
The watermarks shouldn't show up on the extracted image.
If you are having problems, just contact me and I can help you with a step-by-step process.
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply! I appreciate it! :)
I didn't know about the rogue's crippling strike so I did not have something to compare the Crippling Blow rage power to. In hindsight, along with getting confirmation that Savagery can't be used towards Crippling Blow, I agree that it balances out. *thumbs up*
Wield Halfling, Throw Halfling: good to know, I guess my brain didn't pick up the details before about improvised weapons. D'oh! Thanks for pointing it out! :)
Steppe Warrior: ooooh! See, when I don't see what an archetype ability modifies or replaces directly at the end of the archetype ability's description, I forget to look at the other stuff that got modified or replaced. Totally my bad on missing that and not thinking outside the box.
As for the Savage, I am not an expert on theorycrafting and builds so I can't say for sure if there is an exploit. I'm just typically cautious of when an abundance of similar abilities come into play simultaneously. It's a habit I picked up thanks to the 3 power-gamers among my group of players, lol. ;)
Totally by accident while looking up feats that had Vital Strike in their prerequisites, I found this feat.
While it does not help with removing the possessing creature right off the bat, it does help in damaging them. I don't think nonlethal damage will function against the possessing creature if it is undead but if it is a normal living creature, then theoretically this feat allows you to deal nonlethal damage against the possessing creature too (in case you don't want to end up killing the host creature). If you knock the possessing creature unconscious, that should reasonably end the possession.
Off the top of my head, ataxians, belier devils, and shadow demons are among the living creatures that are not immune to nonlethal damage and are capable of possessing creatures. There are probably a handful more.
Huh, this seems like it could be a fun feat in a horror/occult based campaign. Honestly, as a PC, I would have this feat for a weapon with the training weapon enhancement. Very situational, but highly amusing when you pull it out during a fight with a possessed creature. ;)
There are a few ways to go about getting a house for PCs; your gaming group just have to decide on which one is best for them. Let's take a look at some of the options (I'm assuming you want houses for purchase, not one that your PC grew up in):
(1) Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Korvosa has a detailed list for owning specific types of residences within that city. Mind you, these are expensive residences (cheapest being around 8,000 gold pieces). EDIT:Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Absalom also has prices listed for a variety of buildings within that city.
(2) Use the Downtime Rules in Ultimate Campaign - described within that section are different types of buildings, including houses.
(3) Use the Kingdom Building Rules in Ultimate Campaign - similar to the Downtime Rules, but more abstract and meant for your PCs if they are rulers.
(4) Use the Cost of Living rules in the Core Rulebook (page 405); it's more like paying rent than buying outright a house, but it is simple and easy to implement.
(5) If you use any of the Factions, Guilds, Schools, etc. subsystems (see Inner Sea Magic, Pathfinder Society Primer, Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and others for details), you can spend Prestige Points (PP) to obtain property, one of which is a townhouse.
(6) If you don't mind using D&D 3.0/3.5, check out the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook.
Can you use Channel Energy to attack an undead creature inside someone?
"The power of Erastil compells you!"
To the best of my knowledge, you cannot use channel energy normally to harm or affect the undead soul/spirit possessing a host. Your channel energy affects the host body instead, depending on which type of channel energy you used.
As mentioned above, dispelling the possession effect (if it is created by a spell like magic jar or possession) would drive out the possessing creature. While possession does not explicitly states that dispel magic functions on it, it does not have to since, as a general rule, you can dispel any spell with an on-going duration (there may be some specific cases but off-hand I don't recall). Magic jar specifically calls out how to dispel it because it uses a focus and you can dispel it through targeting the focus or the target's location.
For more details on possessions in PF, check out here.
Besides what has already been mentioned above, there are a few other ways to get rid of possessions:
The reviews are still there (for all products). If you do not see it at first, refresh/reload the page and it will show up (might take more than one attempt but usually works on the first try). This particular glitch happens quite often and I have no idea why.
CB
EDIT: I stand corrected, it seems that even refreshing/reloading only shows the latest two reviews. Now that's even stranger than before.
The way I looked at it, the Kankerata Run is a test for the newer generations of centaurs on becoming adults and it has multiple purposes. It tests their physical abilities to the extreme, but it also tests their luck. It sometimes puts them into situations where they choose between personal glory and tribal solidarity. And if they are unlucky, Kankerata teaches them that there is always a terrifying beast that will kill you with a single bite; death isn't always a glorious end, sometimes it is just you being somebody else's latest flavoured snack.
Thus, they give centaurs attempting the Run the moonlit torcs of passage to avoid being killed by Kankerata. Withdrawing from an encounter with opponent that could kill you 10 times out of 10 encounters is the best choice you could make for the tribe (especially if you are male!).
For my players who did help out the centaurs, I gave them a bonus to their Diplomacy checks with the centaurs and used the opportunity for the players to turn those they helped into "contacts" within the tribe that they could work with to gain favours/assistance, kind of like building a relationship.
As for the centaurs who failed the Run, the opportunity to retake the test again one year later allows them the time required to re-train their skills or gain class levels to put skill ranks towards the more appropriate skills so that they will have an easier time on the 2nd or 3rd time around. Which makes the Run also a method of encouraging their young to train harder, heh.
Looking over the description of Iaijutsu Slash, I agree that it does seem to strongly state that it is an attack action:
"...can draw and make an attack with any one-handed slashing weapon, estoc, rapier, or swordcane as a standard action..." and "A mercurial duelist can only make an iaijutsu slash with a weapon that is sized for them..." (Bold emphasis mine.)
As far as I could tell though, there are only 2 one-handed slashing weapons that have reach, the flying talon and the whip (also the scorpion whip when used as a whip). An improvised weapon might also have reach. Feats that I know of that could help with gaining reach with an one-handed slashing weapon or treating a weapon as an one-handed slashing weapon for the purposes of class features are as follows:
Bladed Brush, Lunge, Monkey Lunge, and Weapon Versatility (this one helps turn your weapon's damage type to slashing if necessary, so this can work with just about any one-handed weapon that has reach, which is only the gnome flick-mace, I think). Oh, if you have Dance of Chains + Weapon Versatility, you could use the spiked chain for an Iaijutsu Slash, I think? Same with Quarterstaff Master + Weapon Versatility.
Alternatively, you can nab the Massive Blade mercurial talent to use two-handed slashing weapons with an Iaijutsu Slash (and there are a lot of two-handed slashing weapons with reach). If one doesn't want to spend a vigilante talent to get Massive Blade, they could nab Spear Dancing Style feats + Quarterstaff Master + Weapon Versatility, but that is a lot of feats. You are better off just nabbing Massive Blade. ;)
The longarm bracers helps gaining reach, albeit only 3 times per day. Although my personal favourite option is rather mean: use the spine flail ;)
I could not find any options though that lets you take a 5 foot step after you use a standard action to attack but before actually making the attack roll.
I had the son of the opposition leader in the centaur tribe participate in the Kankerata Run; he was a centaur called Krojun-Eats-What-He-Kills (a nod to the History of A Thousand Ashes). Besides his centaur HD, I gave him 12 levels of unchained barbarian (with the primal warrior and invulnerable rager archetypes). Despite his high level, he only had a Climb +6 and Stealth -1 total (while wearing armour). He was the ONLY centaur in the Run who made the Climb check (DC 25) for navigating through the Den location thanks to a high die roll (eventually).
However, he came in 2nd place as the party's alchemist, a Small grippli, was managing to breeze through many of the locations thanks to his skill modifiers and took the first place quite decisively; climbing was a cake-walk for him. He had a boosted ego after that for a long time.
Fun fact: Krojun failed his Climb check initially in the Den and got attacked by Kankerata who swallowed him on the first bite. The mighty centaur proceeded to cut his way out of its stomach with a knife and then managed to climb out of the Den. While Krojun did not win the Run, everyone was impressed that he not only managed to finish the Run, he also survived being swallowed by Kankerata for a few rounds. The party were convinced that having all-out war with the centaurs was probably a very bad idea. ;)
Took me a while to find the one that I was thinking of at the time earlier, but here is the thread where Turin shared his work on the armies of Pitax (and some information on the buildings of a more robust Pitax).
I rarely check this website anymore due to lack of free time, but I still have my old PF conversions (at least what I managed to do before the campaign ended early) for "Enemies of My Enemy," "Into the Maw," "Serpents of Scuttlecove," and "Well of Darkness."
Let me know by private message (forgive me if I take a week or two to send them as I rarely check my profile on Paizo anymore) which adventure you like my conversions for and I will send them to you (the earlier adventures I had already ran them in 3.5E so redoing them into PF was not necessary for my purposes).
Fair warning ahead, I did those conversion YEARS ago so don't expect conversions made with hybrid classes and so forth.
Again, I repeat, I did not complete ALL of the npcs and monsters for the adventures I mentioned earlier - but I have some preliminary stuff done for those that I did not finish (I think), but I hope they will be useful for you. :)
The material was cut out due to space consideration (word count, etc.) and it never was released as a Paizo Blog or provided in any of the adventure modules afterwards.
Some of the community members have provided their own stats for Pitax (including better armies for Pitax that made a lot more sense than those provided in the adventure module).
However, I am not sure about it but the material that was cut might get covered in the Anniversary Edition of Kingmaker. Only time will tell.
....Poop. I knew I forgotten something so basic there. Thanks for reminding me, Endy! :)
Kind of wish there was a talent for high level Mercurial Duelists that allowed them to use Iaijutsu Slash more frequently; for example, to combine Iaijutsu Slash with a Whirlwind Attack (still a full round action) or something along the lines of using it with Spring Attack.
At any rate, awesome job, Legendary Games with this product. I will be using the majority for my campaign - just right for a low-magic setting. :)
100 NPCs!?!! Awsome. Can you give me an idea of how useful they are outside a fey campaign? CR range? Class types?
The vast majority of the NPCs are just names, gender, race, and social standing in the courts. So basically a line or two, since these are not NPCs you have to fight. Instead, these are just for the DM to use for social Intrigue with the adventure, to put a personality behind sources of gossip and favours the PCs can deal with.
That being said, there are quite a few stat blocks presented for key encounters, suitable opponents for duels, and so forth. The CR ranges are about high end of low-level (6 or so) and scales upwards. I don't have the book in front of me to check.
Moving at a speed of 20 ft./round through space. Maybe they should show up in your next Starfinder Campaign, really annoyed by the time they met up with the Dark Tapestry and came back, Golarion had already gone missing. ;)
40' per round. They can double move ;)
Might even be able to "run" every so often. :)
More to the point though, it would be pretty cool if you ran a future campaign in the same world and had them come back to torment the kingdom and have the new PCs deal with them -- even if the Kingdom is not the focal point of the next campaign. Just one of those things to remind your players of their past exploits.
I intend to do just that for the next campaign. :)
It amuses me though, if we enforced completely real-world physics and the laws of gravity for this particular scene of flying through space, the Elder Things could not actually achieve escape velocity even if they "run" (4 x 20 = 80 feet per round). Fortunately, this is a fantasy game. ;)
Yeah, I thought more about it while at work and the Elder Things are not really relevant to the overall plot so there is no need to bring them back into the campaign. I am considering running the Iron Gods AP after the Kingmaker one so I can tie them in to that one.
Finished (for the most part) the Climb to Talon Peaks + the Observatory mod that Dudemeister made (they just have to get down and they are doing so via jumping down and using levitate as needed).
They fought the ghost, defeated her (her rejuvenation will take 5 days) and they defeated the Elder Things. The problem is that the leader of the group, the paladin, checked to see if the Elder Things were evil (they're not, they're LN) so he had their wounds bandaged and he brought one of them conscious. Since the party was the first one to attack and the Elder Things only attempted to defend themselves, it successfully convinced the paladin that they were forced against their will to arrive on the planet and had been trapped for years (technically true). Cue some more Diplomacy and roleplaying, the paladin AGREED to let them go if they agreed to leave the planet (they have interstellar flight) and not personally return to enact revenge against the people of the kingdom.
So the question becomes "Do the Elder Things ever return back in time during the pcs' lifetime to matter in-game?" I do not know enough about the Elder Things, beyond that they are a rigid society that relies on eventual conquest and subjugation of other species. So should I bother with maybe bringing the Elder Things back at the end of the campaign (Book 5 or 6) for war?
Also, how does this affect the ghost? Technically speaking, she wanted them off the planet but she meant using magic to force them out, not them leaving under their own power. Is it enough to end her torment?
I have some ideas about it all but I am curious to hear people's perspectives on the situation.
As a Brazilian RPG fan (who has been living in Canada for decades), I am shocked to hear that the publication of translated Pathfinder products in Brasil is that awful! The biggest reason why I got into roleplaying games at all in the paper and pen format was because of a summer I spent in Brasil with my cousins playing Dungeons and Dragons. Because of how much fun I had then, I got the courage to join a RPG club in university when I got back home after that vacation.
I vividly remember how prolific and vibrant the RPG marketplace was in Brasil back in the 90's and very early 2000's. It saddens me to hear that Pathfinder did not enjoy as much success in Brasil under Devir's management as it could have under a different publisher that was competent, diligent, and committed to ensuring a flourishing RPG marketplace.
Hrm, I'd certainly would continue to support Legendary Games if they did that (after all, I did buy more products from LG over the last three years than I did from Paizo - mainly their mythic content and expansions on kingdom building and all things fey-themed).
I suspect that Legendary Games, if they were to consider the idea of carrying on the 3.5 torch, may want to test the waters first with a Kickstarter of their own "setting," as it were, to determine how profitable would it be to them to continue making 3.5/Pathfinder 1.0 compatible content.
That being said, before they even consider that idea, I think they are going to want to wait until PF 2.0 is released before jumping the gun, so to speak. After all, they do maintain an amicable and respectful relationship with Paizo.
Honestly, I'd like to see Kobold Press, Legendary Games, and Rite Publishing, among other 3rd PP to continue with 3.5/PF 1.0 compatible content. They know how to mesh crunch and fluff together really well (most of the time), and they are generally good about updating their products in a timely fashion when they catch the errors (especially Rite Publishing and LG, from my experience). To be fair though, the majority of their products are foremost pdfs so it's far easier to correct those than a printed copy.
I know it has been a while since the release of this product, but I was consulting it to get the stats of the shadow fey for an online game I am running and a few things about it threw me off.
I think the total skill modifier for the Knowledge (planes) skill is off (unless it was made a class skill, which fey normally do not get by virtue of their type). Secondly, their AC and saves are off as well. The AC is off by 1 (the +1 dodge bonus really shouldn't be there as something that is always present; I am assuming that bonus is from the 1/day haste spell-like ability they have).
The saves....well, fey have good reflex and good will saves. As 7 HD creatures, their base saves should be +2/+5/+5. Their ability score modifiers adjust those base values to +3/+10/+6. Even if we assume the benefits of the haste spell-like ability (again, 1/day only), that brings their saves up to +3/+11/+6. The Midgard Bestiary lists their saves as +7/+14/+10. What I want to know is...how?
The only plausible explanations that I can think of that grants them an additional +4 bonus to their saves is either an unmentioned cloak of resistance +4 OR the special quality Flicker that shadow fey have also grants a bonus to their saves equal to their Charisma modifier (something that is not listed in the description of that special quality).
As an update, I managed to work the Observatory map from The Armageddon Echo onto a snowy mountain peak, complete with the large steel coffins in the corner, walls of ice around the perimeter, and scrying pools and equipment on the lower level. :)
Now I work towards making the linnorm boneyard, ;)
Umm, This will help: Stephen King was actually quoting William Faulkner, who said: “In writing, you must kill all your darlings." Basically, if you have something that you are stuck on, to the detriment of the story, get rid of it. It really looks like Alice is becoming this kind of a Darling. Thus.....
Ohhhh, well, now that makes sense. I didn't know that was a quote attributed to William Faulkner - it was just the first thing that showed up on Google search and I erroneously thought that the film was what you were referring to in your post.
As much as I would love to leave Alice (and said "adventure") behind, Alice is the GM's pc, so we are really stuck on this horse without a name (I mean, we the players could leave the game, but I decided at the start to give the benefit of the doubt first and make a concerted effort to see this to the end). ;)
the city's mythal actually prevents any divinations from working within the city's limits). So discern location would not point to the real Alice (who is effectively non-existent, not just invisible, to divination spells at this juncture)...
I don't know what a "mythal" is or why it would make you register as non-existent, but I suppose if the campaign world is set up to nerf the entire school of Divination, then divinations will be nerfed.
My bad, I actually gave the name for the wrong city (it should be Myth Drannor, not Silverymoon).
Anyways, to keep it entirely short (because the description of a mythal is incredibly long and complicated), in the Forgotten Realms campaign, a mythal is a semi-permanent magic field (developed by the elves) that envelops a large area and you could tie specific magical effects to it. Best way to think of it is as a mythic-scale magical effect that combined multiple spell effects together, similar to guards and wards, hallow/unhallow, and forbiddance. They are incredibly rare but luckily for the pcs, there are a few remaining cities that still have such incredibly powerful defences so it doesn't take up any of our resources to take advantage of it, it's there already in the setting.
Mythals have been part of the Forgotten Realms lore since its introduction back in 2nd Edition and carried over to 3.5. In 3.5, a mythal could only be constructed by an epic spellcaster with enough gold and experience points to bankrupt a city (o.k., that might be an exaggeration there but not by much). I am not sure what additional changes that could be made to it, other than perhaps making the crafting of such a thing as a mythic ritual (since PF doesn't have epic levels)?
To be fair, it is balanced out by the fact that it is tied to a specific region (about the size of a city) and there are a few ways around some of its defences (but those require an adventure of their own so we will leave that aside), so adventurers cannot take advantage of it willy-nilly.
Plus, constantly abusing the benefits of the mythal is likely to draw the ire of the city's authorities, and I can imagine a conversation between city guards going like this:
"Dammit, a few more adventurers hired by Alice's sworn enemies showed up by the city gates and walked in on the false premises of conducting legitimate business - they blew up another warehouse in their attempt to kill her. That's, what, the third time this year? Maybe Alice should be banned from living here?"
There are pros and cons to it, and it's not a decision to made lightly. For the pcs in this case, it's literally their only option since they don't have the capabilities themselves of thwarting a variety of divinations that the mind blank spell does not stop/hinder directly.
If the (uninhabited) inert clone was living, there wouldn't be the follow-on note that it will rot unless preserved in some way. I guess the spell gives the clone a psuedo-life until it becomes potentially viable (complete), with the clone becoming actually viable when it becomes "inhabited".
EDIT ADD
Classic advice to the GM, "Kill your Darlings".
Never saw that film. According to its description on IMDb, it seems....overly convoluted? ;)
Intrigued by the possible intention of what "inert" means in the context of the rules (or at least for the purposes of the clone spell), I decided to look at its various definitions and synonyms, according to good old Google!
It seems that a literal interpretation of the word for most circumstances (with regards to creatures) implies some semblance of life (unconsciousness, inactive, senseless, comatose, stationary, etc.).
Ironically enough, if this interpretation is used for clone, then the spell is even better than expected. Heck, by itself (and if we interpret the inert clone to still be living), it could fool spells like discern location, which might seem odd but they are both 8th level spells, so your mileage may vary. It quickly approaches requiring a more in-depth examination by the GM and how they want to run it at their table.
It is debatable precisely what it means by inert piece of flesh for game mechanics, but the most common assumption is that it is a dead body (since it rots if not preserved after it finishes growing).
That being said, a soulless but living body is plausible as well - the rot could be explained as since it doesn't do anything without something to operate the body, it quickly dies of thirst and starvation, or perhaps due to lacking that spark of life it just shuts down and decay like a normal body.
As for what you could do with a soulless but living body (pretty much an empty shell), possession is the first that comes to mind (whether via magic similar to magic jar or others that specifically allows the caster to possess an object).
For a plot device, you could have things like a shadow demon take control of the body, or perhaps a random lost soul that could not go to its final resting place (for whatever reason) ends up inserting itself into the body - like a ghost.
I suppose one could make simulacrums of the cloned body (which would be all soulless too, I guess?) but use them like puppets to stage crimes in the name of the original person you cloned.
Or if one's interests runs along the more perverse end of the personality spectrum,...well, read the original 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness and the current PFRPG Book of Vile Darkness for some ideas there. I rather not delve into exact details as it will inevitably offend someone (and/or possibly cause this particular post to be nuked by a moderator, and rightly so).
Another thing you could would be magical experimentation/research to field-test new custom spells you want to learn - basically the body is your lab rat. Which, honestly, is not a bad idea for a high level spellcaster to help improve the chances of his spell research being successful (or rather, in-game that could be one of the many reasons why his/her spell research was successful).
You could also use the cloned body (again, assuming we determine it to be a soulless but living body) as a means to foil divinations tactics or even as a receptacle for magic traps for those pesky invaders in your fancy demi-plane. Not sure if you can pull it off but maybe something like explosive runes or a symbol of some kind placed on its eyeballs, carefully hidden by its closed eyelids? (Such spells may not work - I don't have the Core Rules book handy as I type this.)
You could also use such cloned bodies as vessels of information you don't want to have handy on you at any given time (in case of capture or you really don't have the memory capacity for the vast amount of knowledge you have been collecting over the thousands of years you have been around). Huh, that last one actually sounds cool.
However, regardless of what you use the clone for, it's not (a) dirt cheap and (b) requires 2d4 months to grow (unless you have a demi-plane with the flowing time trait handy like we did thanks to the GM's pc - most convenient!).
That's all I could think of at the moment. I am sure others can come up with some really creative uses out of clone. :)
I thought of it, and it works for the most part, but the trick is figuring out how to do a balanced conversion of the half-elemental template and the exiled modron race. Back in 3.5, when ECL was a thing, it had an ECL of 24, and had a total of 21 HD derived from class levels.
I suppose I could use mythic tiers to replicate some of the weird things it could do back then. For example, it had the planar wizard substitution (from the Planar Handbook, if I recall correctly) that allowed it to cast any spell without a check that would otherwise normally required by a planar trait that impedes specific magic, so it would casually cast frost magic in the Elemental Plane of Fire. I remain eternally thankful that it did not attract the attention of Kossuth when it did drop an iceberg on some weird horribly overpowered undead fire elemental thing it encountered while exploring a level of a dungeon that was wholly in the Elemental Plane of Fire. Whew!
Not relevant to the actual thread topic, but I wanted to reply to something Tacticslion mentioned earlier:
Off-track reply:
Tacticslion wrote:
But, yo, for real, ditch the whole clone business after all this and make sure Alice goes in for the alternate plane method of living forever. It's much more reliable and more difficult to undo.
Alice is either a magus/psion/psychic theurge/mind mage or a wizard/psion/psychic theurge/mind mage, we are not sure which (considering the GM...may be changing his mind about the conversion of Alice he did - Alice was a 2nd Edition pc with insane amount of customization thanks to Skills and Powers when it came out for 2nd Edition). IF Alice is a magus, she can't do the immortality method via the alternate plane trick. Well, she could with scrolls, I suppose, but that starts getting really expensive quickly.
But the alternate plane method of living forever sounds appropriate for the half-water elemental exiled modron mage I had back in 3.5. I can't exactly play with that pc anymore (most of his spells and feats were ice-themed and from the Frostburn book by WoTC; he typically ended any combat with dropping an iceberg or two).
As far as I can tell, the spell makes an exact duplicate of the original, so it should include scars and etc. That being said, I know the pcs made their Spellcraft checks (they were hitting the range of DC 40 to 50) so if the spell doesn't replicate the scars and etc., then Alice will really have to die and move into the clone (which is what the rest of the party are pushing for since Alice came up with the original idea of getting herself killed and being presented as a gift to the bad guys - the GM, who is the player of Alice, is waffling at the time being). It will be a GM's call if the scars are replicated or not.
At the levels we're talking about, your ruse is painfully transparent if the bad guys are sufficiently intelligent and paranoid.
Cast discern location and Alice's true location comes up, not the clone's.
Cast scrying on Alice and the real Alice is the target.
A simple speak with dead has already been mentioned, and is the most likely thing to happen in this scenario -- "Hey, corpse, did this Bob guy really kill you?"
There are any number of other ways of determining whether a corpse is the real McCoy.
As mentioned earlier up-thread (it is possible to miss it, a lot of stuff was being tossed around and many posts are really long; also, I may have not actually mentioned it but thought I did):
1. Alice (in whichever body she is inhabiting, whether it be the original body or the clone, depending on Alice's final choice) will be protected from divinations via mind blank or the psionic version, barred mind and she will be hiding out in Silverymoon (the city's mythal actually prevents any divinations from working within the city's limits). So discern location would not point to the real Alice (who is effectively non-existent, not just invisible, to divination spells at this juncture) and simply points to the nearest "Alice" which is the corpse they were given (for all intended purposes, it is Alice, just a dead Alice).
2. Like discern location, scrying is likewise foiled in the same manner.
3. Speak with dead is not a problem as it works only with the memories of the corpse, and as far as the corpse is concerned, Bob really did kill Alice. The spell doesn't interact with the soul in any fashion.
I would like to know what are the other ways of determining whether a corpse is the real McCoy, it is relevant to the topic of the thread. :)
Sadly, Alice is now rather attached to her original body. She now seems unwilling to die given the option of presenting a cloned body to the bad guys (which is ironic given that it was her idea in the first place for the party to kill her and present her corpse as a gift to the bad guys to able to get on board the flying keep). Most likely once I started pointing out the really nasty things they could to do to her corpse, the player changed their mind. Dammit, Alice! ;)
It is an unusual party and most of the weird stuff (like clone) we are doing requires us to utilize Use Magic Device with purchased scrolls like crazy. We don't have a divine caster among us nor a straight-up mage.
As for Alice's equipment, the GM stated that Alice (who is actually the GM's pc) has used a customized spell to keep tabs of where her gear goes. *shrugs* it's out of my hands. This entire adventure so far has been surreal - some of the stuff is flat-out bonkers. But I suppose that is what one gets with a home-brewed adventure that has not been play-tested at all. Oh wait, maybe we are the play-test group? *sigh*
As far as whether or not the notion that any form of re-animation takes a piece of the soul and binds it (in the very specific case where the soul is already inhabiting a live body), it does not seem to be supported for Golarion by the actual rules or the majority of such spells' descriptions (at least not that I am aware of; I certainly do not possess an encyclopedic and photographic memory of all of the rules, game mechanics, and spells devised for the game). It is a rather unusual corner case that does not come up often so I suspect it is strongly a case of GM's interpretation/preference. And I am o.k. with that, so long as it is consistent.
For the specific case of this particular scenario that takes place in a different setting (the Forgotten Realms, before the Spellplague), I think the pcs are safe in that creating a type of undead from the dead clone by the bad guys is feasible for the bad guys (and thus not raise more suspicions). Interestingly enough, according to canonical lore of the Forgotten Realms, a well-known villain named Manshoon had multiple clones running around at one point (because they all got activated at the same time, if I recall correctly), and one of those clones was actually a vampire (that is an event that happens in 3.5). So at least there is precedent in that particular game setting.
I am glad that I decided to discuss this issue here because it is an interesting scenario and it was worth getting the feedback from various people. It will be a discussion I will have to share with the GM at the next game session.
By all means, feel free to continue the discussion though, I am keen to hear more thoughts on the matter.
Ignoring the identifying the clone as a clone part, there are a few potential problems here.
First off, regardless of the implanted memories, as soon as Bob wakes up he might go, "What the hell was I thinking! I don't want to help the cult! Oh god, Alice!!!"
Second off, if the corpse doesn't come with the appropriate magical gear, that might raise suspicions.
Third off, with raise dead so prevalent at the levels where you can cast clone, it would probably be trivial to verify whether or not Alice is actually dead.
Fourth off, speak with dead spell.
Luckily, the pcs have already dealt with the first two problems beforehand.
1. Bob volunteered for the undercover job and part of his memories that return include him basically talking to himself in front of a mirror, going over why he did it, what's the plan, that Alice is safe, and that the rest of the party will joining up with him once he completes his mission objectives (otherwise, they cannot teleport into where the flying keep is located at that time).
2. Alice agreed to leave behind the items she is most commonly known to use, including a rare magical crown that she normally wears (it's a highly prized item). Luckily, the rival organization, while definitely run by an evil inner circle, complies with the bounty laws of the local kingdom so Bob actually gets to choose if he wants to keep anything Alice's body had (he decided on letting the bad guys identify the items first and then negotiate a fair price for things he doesn't want).
3. Speak with dead is not a problem because it works directly with the corpse, not the soul, and thus its knowledge is limited by the memories of the body. As far as the clone's memories go, it knows that Bob killed her. It has memories of being alive. Plus, it gets a Will save as if it were alive. I think the PCs are safe in regards to this spell. :)
From what I understand, you can use the create undead and create greater undead spells on a corpse without any regard to the condition of the original soul since the body is animated by negative energy and does not require an actual soul.
I have to re-check that though in this situation because the setting is the Forgotten Realms (which is similar in a lot of ways to Golarion) and it might work a bit differently.
@Tactislion: I am confused on a few points on what you described, but for now, let's start with the curse on the ju-ju zombie. How does one do that?
Hm, that's a fairly plausible use of augury. I started doing some research on what are the possible causes that would prevent things like restoring the cloned body to life (since they would be under the initial impression that it is the original body) or re-animation of the body as an undead of some type.
Given that the adventure in question is high level (18+ and it is likely that the bad guys might have mythic tiers; the pcs already know that the bad guys have more artifacts in their flying keep than a Third Edition Forgotten Realms novel), the likelihood of discovery is going to vary. With enough time and if the bad guys have enough of a motivation beyond re-animating the body, they could well discover that the original may be alive.
Life sight? That is not a spell I am familiar with. If you are referring to the Life Sight class ability of a necromancer (and similar abilities), it only detects living and undead creatures, it doesn't detect dead bodies.
Likewise, a deathwatch spell only recognizes "dead, fragile, fighting off death, healthy, undead, or neither alive nor dead (such as a construct)". A soulless clone would register as dead (in my opinion) since like other dead bodies it rots away if not preserved after it is grown. The deathwatch spell doesn't care if something was never alive to begin with and can't make that distinction.
There is a reason why the pcs want to keep Alice alive - the rival organization has the habit of re-animating the bodies of their enemies. Alice would really prefer that she does not get re-animated as some horrible abomination and twisted mockery of life.
Polymorp any object has a duration and it leaves a magic aura of transmutation on the transmuted target so it is easily detected. Given enough time, it will be dispelled, and when the rival organization finds out, they will kill poor Bob.
Back to the topic of the thread: it seems that most divinations cannot distinguish the dead clone from the original target, but some divinations like contact other plane might yield some clues with the right questions (depending on who is being consulted, but I feel that unless it is absolutely important, most arcane spellcasters would not cast it to confirm the identity of a dead corpse given the horrible consequences of a failed check, but I am not the DM so he may decide they want to take that risk). Even meticulous match would not notice a difference between the two.
It's not a 100% foolproof plan, but given the numerous obstacles the pcs are facing to even find out the location of the rival organization's HQ on any given day (it's a flying keep that is heavily warded from divinations and teleportations most of the time, and it is capable of moving to other dimensions), this is the best the pcs could come up with, despite not having a single actual wizard on the team (they had to buy scrolls in conjunction with Use Magic Device just to pull this off). Hence why all the complications.
Yes, but it isn't simple. Basically, a good number of spells which function based on the soul being loosely attached to the body would not work. You'd then follow this up divination to determine why they don't work and that would reveal it.
For example, a cleric with Raise Dead followed by Augury. The cleric would attempt to raise the dead only to have it fail. Then they'd use Augury to ask why the casting failed. Might also come up with Speak With Dead.
Though, of course, the easiest way to ID clones is to have two of them. Once you start finding lots of identical corpses their credibility as a fake death goes down a lot. Encountering a PC or NPC that is certain of their death, would also work.
A caster may also be able to use detect magic to find traces of the clone spell on the clone, though that one would be up to the GM and in relation to how they determine when clone takes effect, since it the aura will only likely last for 1d6x10 minutes (d6 days with a very high caster level).
Raise dead can easily fail since the most common reason why is that the original soul chooses not to return to life but I do concede that augury could help the opposition determine the failure in raising the body (assuming that the original, and still alive, Alice does not have something equivalent to a mind blank up and running), is that a common tactic to use augury when raise dead (or similar spells) fail? I'm not questioning the validity of using that tactic, just curious as to how common is that approach?
CB
Edit: upon reading what augury does, it cannot give you such information. It just tells you if a given action is good or bad. Maybe you were thinking of the higher level divination spells?
Spell durations are important when you may want something to endure for years/decades/millennium without constant maintenance.
There are Runelords that still have viable clones 10,000 years after Earthfall.
Certainly, if the pcs' plan's schedule required it to last that long. ;) Fortunately for the pcs, the schedule is no more than a few days - it is important for the body to decompose naturally afterwards like a normal body would. :)
Whether or not the clone actually becomes alive is not relevant for this purpose because the spell creates an exact body duplicate of the original (which decomposes like a normal dead body if not tended to) at the time the spell is complete (which grows the body slowly in 2d4 months). The duration of the spell is instantaneous. The clone remains after the completion of the spell - for all intended purposes, it is an inert soulless bit of flesh (which is pretty much what a normal dead body is in the first place).
We don't need the clone body to be alive after the spell is done, we just need the clone body to be indistinguishable from the original body to mundane and magical examination. That is the question I am trying to get an answer to: can someone identify a corpse as a clone?
CB
Edit: fixed a grammatical error and clarified the first sentence in the second paragraph.
The clone spell doesn't fail if Alice is still alive. It activates afterwards when Alice is dead (otherwise, it remains inert as a soulless corpse). Otherwise, what is the point of the clone spell as a back-up for the spellcaster?
Bob's memories are being restored at a later date (there are a few ways of achieving this, including sequester thoughts, but for the purposes of the adventure that our DM is running, a modified and one-time use only thought bottle was introduced; his idea, not the players).
Alice's clone only needs to have the memories about the plan erased beforehand (there are spells and psionic powers that can accomplish this), but speak with dead should fail since there is no soul for the spell to interact with as the original Alice is still alive.
CB
Edit: the sequester thoughts spell is from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide and the thought bottle is a 3.5 magic item (Complete Scoundrel, I think).
To give a bit of explanation here, as part of an attempt to gain access into a rival organization, the PCs decide on the following:
1. Clone one of the party members who has a listed bounty by the rival organization. Let's call this party member Alice.
2. Modify and remove select memories of another party member (one that the rival organization does not know about beforehand) so that individual truly believe that they want to join the rival organization's inner circle and that they never have met the other PCs before. Let's call this party member Bob.
3. Modify and remove select memories of Bob again so he truly believes that he tracked down, fought, and defeated Alice, killing her in the process.
4. Arrange for Alice's clone to have the very wounds that Bob believes he inflicted on Alice (best if Bob actually inflicts said wounds - a real battle can be done to help support the false memories implanted into Bob afterwards).
5. Bob takes Alice's clone (after the 2d4 months period of growing the clone) to the rival organization to gain admission into the organization and since he believes in his own memories that he wants to join the inner circle, he will work towards gaining their trust and learning what he can.
Having said all that, I come back to the question posted in the thread title: can a corpse be identified as a clone? Is there a way (whether it be using skills or via magic) for someone to figure out that a clone is not the original body and that the original is still alive?
I tried looking earlier for any additional information about the clone spell but didn't find quite what I was looking for. Thank you in advance to everyone who replies for any clarification/answers here.
