Brutesquad07's page

Hello,

Please cancel my Adventure Path Subscription. Next AP is not my cup of tea. Thanks.

Hello Customer Service!

In looking at my finances and the fact that I now have a surplus of material to run it is time for me to cancel my pathfinder subscription. Please understand this has nothing to do with the price increase and everything to do with content and a surplus of it at my house currently. I am sure I'll re add subscription once I find the AP for me and I have the group and time to run it for.

Thank you!

Good morning Customer Service,

I just oppened my package and discovered an error. I ordered Gamemastery Flip-Mat: Pirate Island. I received Pirate Ship. Can we make arrangements for a rendesvous where we trade hostages? I already have a copy of Pirate Ship you see but would love to have a copy of Pirate Island to call my very own.

Thank you.

Good evening Paizonian Overlords.

I have a bit of a mix up with my order. My invoice is for PF #58 and #59 as well as a Cave Troll.

I received 2 copies of #58 no #59 and no Cave Troll.

The Missing #59 can go with the next issue, that would be fine, I'll download the PDF if I wish to read it before then. The Cave Troll, if that could just be credited to my account as I don't really need another troll that badly. Or if that is to much hassle there really is always room for one more troll it to could just be added to the next shipment.

How do I send you the second #58 back?

Thanks in advance

P.S. do you know the difference between Paizo and a lot of other places I deal with on line? A mistake happens and somehow I just shrug and find it humorous. Perhaps that's because I fully believe it was an honest mistake and that it will get sorted out without hastle or delay. Besides I am giddy to know that you are human...and make mistakes I was beginning to worry.

Thank you for the excellent products and fantastic service, but it is time I cancel both my Adventure Path and RPG Subscriptions. Just time to put some money to a different use and I have a stockpile of info for the foreseeable future.

Sent an e-mail, but thought I would cover my bases here as well.

Thank you,
William Houghton

Shadowlarke is running this game. He played Elam in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game.

Our first game was on Halloween. That day we spent most of the time tidying up the character sheets and prepping the game. We got started pretty late but we did get a little game in.

First, however, let’s introduce the characters. We’ll go by alphabetical order here.

Kenver: Human Bear Shaman Druid from the APG, I only know what he has told us about his background. His parents died in a gang war, though they seemed to be poor and uninvolved in the war. He grew up in the forest of Gronzi, learning the druidic ways. He heard of the Sword Lords charter and he ran into us a few days later.

Mingo: Gnome Barbarian with an Earthbreaker. I bet you all think this character is as cliché as it comes. Having been hit by the Earthbreaker this gnome wields…yea pretty much cliché but still quite effective. Mingo has shared very little of his background. In fact I have been moved by his Earthbreaker far more than his words.

Nathaniel Kaylor: Human Rogue. Future multiclass Cavalier. This character is one of three Kaylor’s that have come to the greenbelt. The older half brother, Nathaniel is a bit of a scamp. He grew up on the streets becoming something of a minor gang leader. His ties to family seem to be what has pulled him to the greenbelt.

Ophelia Kaylor: Human Oracle. Ophelia is the youngest of the Kaylor’s to venture into the greenbelt. She has only recently discovered her two older brothers still live after several years living with their uncle. Ophelia sadly suffers blindness that has never been able to be cured. She functions fairly well, but is constantly being looked after by her older brothers. She is a pure pacifist with a power of life.

William Kaylor: Human Paladin. William is something of the glue that holds the other two Kaylor’s together. He is a knight by training, a nobleman by birth and a gentleman by nature. This is my character, and the perspective from which I will write.

We used a rather novel background generator, an older product called Central Casting. It developed some quite radical characters, yet they tie together quite well.

I will begin the adventures of this group in future posts.

Hey all,

Long time DM here (Including RotRL and CotCT) getting a chance in a couple of months time to play Kingmaker. Trying to work out what I wish to play and have something of a personal Dilemma that I hoped DM's and those who have played or read the AP could advise me on without giving to much away.

Currently I am working on a Paladin theme and trying to decide between the Mounted Paladin and a Two Weapon sword and board build. Not looking for Optimized but do want to be effective. We can use anything Core, after that we can pass it by the DM and if it is reasonable I expect we'll be able to use it. The APG may have a better chance of being considered reasonable than 3.5 material.

DM is using a background generator that I am unfamiliar with and haven't seen yet, though I have heard it is reminiscent of the old tables in 2nd ed. Unearthed Arcana. From speaking with the GM I believe that some wiggle room to fit character concept is available.

The background I am currently working up goes something like this:

Heir to a noble/royal house that had the lands taken/stolen/destroyed and only he and maybe a handful of others know his background. (This way if he doesn't become the ruler I have wiggle room without having to retire the character do to his background) I am toying with running him as a southern gentleman in the style of Gone with the Wind.

Really more interested in the Paladin than Cavalier or Fighter as I really would like to take the Paladin out for a spin.

Regardless of my decisions below I plan on taking Leadership.

To my questions.
A) Mounted or 2 Weapon/sword and board. Both are very intriguing to me but I have come to the sad realization that the poor Paladin (sarcasm) just doesn't get the feats to balance both trees. I have also toyed with the thought of taking 2-weap and Imp Shield bash and calling it good then going on with mounted from there but I am afraid that I may just be a feat or two short of where I want to be, when I want to be there.

B) if mounted Horse or do I start horse and try to go for the Stag in the Players Guide? I am thinking a bit more knightly leaning and that being the case I am leaning horse.

B) if two-weap Do I set my sights on the higher 2-weapons and struggle with the high Dex needed for high end 2-weap or do I just take the 15 out of the gate, grab the 2-weap fighting and then concentrate on the shield feats?

C) I have received the message that Survival skill will be important, and the players guide made that pretty clear as well, so if I can pull off 3 or 4 skills per level the Riding thing may impact my skill usage also and require more. Other than Diplomacy and Survival (and of course Handle animal and Ride) am I missing any skills that are obvious no brainers for a paladin?

D) Am I over thinking all of this? Having been a bigworld kind of guy for the last 6 years and many more than that over the last 30 I am wondering if perhaps I need to just wait a while and role with it (pun intended)...

Thanks for any and all input and for the lack of spoilers in advance.

So, this past Sunday we finished Curse of the Crimson Throne. We then jumped into Rise of the Runelords.

I am using the Fate Point system I used in Curse of the Crimson Throne. PC’s were made with either 15 or 20 build points (most with 20) depending on Fate Point usage.

We have in alphabetical order (fate point usage):

Asa Human Monk (20 point build and MW Quarterstaff)
Baedin Dwarven Fighter (MW Waraxe MW Earthbreaker and Extra Traits)
Gallond Dwarven Fighter (Planning on Paladin) (20 Point Build MW Waraxe)
Havelock Human Bard (I forget his FP expenditures)
Lazurin Elf Warlock (20 Point Build, 3 HP and extra Skill points)
Morgrum Halfling Rogue (extra Feat and 3 extra HP)

The party began their adventuring (unbeknownst to them) at the Swallowtail Festival in Sandpoint. We got to know the town a bit, a few games were played.

Gallond ran with a Gather Info clue that led him down an odd path. He accused the Jeweler of being a bad man and wanted to arrest him. The Gather info told him that the Jewelers wife thought he was a “Bad Merchant” sadly our Dwarven Paladin to be mistook Bad to mean as in a bad man not as in a poor merchant. That took a little working out.

Meanwhile Morgrum, our little rogue, was trying to ply his sleight of hands. He found himself about to possess a Silver MW Waraxe. Turns out it belonged to Baedin who spotted him and whacked him with the Waraxe for half his HP’s. Morgrum then spent the rest of the day trying to make a bit of Coin and avoiding the guards.

The rest of the party poked around the town getting to know it and enjoy the party a bit.

As evening approached the whole town gathered near the Cathedral, a brand new building that was to be dedicated that evening. As Father Zantus, the Desnan priest in charge of the Cathedral, used a thunderstone to get everyone’s attention, a scream rang out. Then another. And then more. Then a goblin raced across the PC’s view and killed a dog. From there Pandemonium broke out. I played them a small piece of sound of a chant that arose.

Goblins are Attacking!

The party killed 4 goblins over a couple of rounds. 1st level PC’s are a bit clumsy after you have been used to 13th level ones. The highlight of the fight was actually Morgrum running up to an Acolyte of the church and telling them that he was injured by one of the goblins (instead of the Dwarven Waraxe that actually did the damage) and getting healed.

We left off there and that is where we will pick up in 4 weeks (easter causes a bit of a break)

I created a board for the Beta Playtest and it has become more of a journal for my players and I to discuss the campaign. Could the following board

BruteSquad07's CotCT Campaign Playtest Report

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/pathfind erRPGBeta/playtest/bruteSquad07sCotCTCampaignPlaytestReport

be moved to the CotCT board and also could it be renamed along the line of

BruteSquad07's first CotCT Campaign [Spoiler's]

Thanks!

I have begun running a second group through CotCT. We are using the Beta Rules, with the 3.5 Ruleset as back up obviously, to cover that which the beta does not. We are also using the Spell compendium and a feat here or there to flesh out as needed. The group are composed of some very long term players, none of whom have played for less than 10-15 years is my bet. The group is made up of people who have played together at one point or another but never together as a group, this is the first time these 4 players have sat together at a game but not the first time some of them have sat down with someone else at the table. We have a party of 4 and I have had a chance to make the changes to the game that I would have if I had known.

I use a Fate Point system, a house rule that allows me to reward roleplaying when exp’s just won’t do. The FP’s also allow me to put the decision of character death in the hands of the player, as they can help prevent pc death as well as smooth out the vagaries of randomness. 1 FP can be used to stabilize a character or to cause a complete reroll, very helpful against that crit build ogre who just confirmed 3 crits.

I will be linking this forum to the group, so please if anyone who is not one of my players are going to chime in all I ask is that you use spoiler tags for any AP/Story reveals. That being said, I don’t think we should have to use spoiler tags for anything the party has run across. It will probably be rare that I use spoiler tages so please, if you are going to play this AP don’t read beyond the point you are already at.

Let me introduce to you my party. For space sake I will use the Spoiler tag on each character

Rogue.

Ranger.

Rogue.

Cleric of Gorum.

The party started by each PC receiving a mysterious card. On the back was a note to meet at a certain house at a certain time. Each member arrived, with the expected outcome of the super alert, hyperactive rogue hanging outside watching and “perceiving” as much as he could. The Ranger and the fighter rogue having a conversation at the door and then heading inside, followed by the Shoanti and finally the sneaky rogue joined them. They met with one Zellara a fortuneteller of some ability, but little means. She told the party of her plight, a certain Ghaedran Lamm had wronged her and she knew that he had wronged each of the party as well. She told them where they could find Mr. Lamm and asked them to deal with him, as the guard and the law would not.

The party headed down to The Old Fishery, where they skulked around and examined the place for quite a while. Finally they decided to split, the Ranger and the fighter Rogue went one way and the Shoanti Cleric and the Sneaky rogue went another. After a few moments, the Ranger and the fighter Rogue tried the door they had chosen, only to realize that it was boarded up and no longer really a door.

The Other two, by this time, had opened the door they had chosen and entered the premises to find a half-orc fighter harassing some children. He turned just in time for the Shoanti Cleric to charge him. The Sneaky Rogue waiting for his chance to get into it with the 1/2orc. A round or so later the Ranger and fighter Rogue came back around to join in. Sadly, by this point the 1/2-orc had done a number on the Priest and the Sneaky Rogue, in an attempt to find away behind the 1/2orc had opened a door and found a nasty little surprise in a gnome pretending to be a child.

The place was loaded with children who were nothing more than press ganged into a work force and a pickpocketing scheme. The Sneaky Rogue shut the door on the Gnome and balanced (Using the Acrobatics Skill) his way across the edge of a large vat to a catwalk behind the ½ orc and bounced a shot from his heavy crossbow off the 1/2orc. By this point the Ranger and the other rogue were coming in to back up the first two. The Shoanti had healed himself back into fighting form and the Sneaky Rogue was able to get a flank for a sneak attack. One attack and heavy damage later the 1/2Orc is injured quite a bit and turns and pastes the Sneaky Rogue sending him into light negatives. The party finishes the 1/2-Orc and the Cleric uses his second C.L.W. on the Rogue putting him back in the fight. The Gnome has entered the room by this point and the party turns on him and spend a couple of rounds all missing each other, until finally someone puts him down.

The party quickly regroups and begins to fan out looking for Ghaedran again. They open another door to a small office and find a blonde man with a stick readied to attack the first person through the door with an Acid Flask. Sadly for him he rolls a 2 on the die and fails to connect. The Ranger then tries to shoot him with his heavy crossbow, not to much affect the first round. The rest of the party takes a round or two to back up the Ranger so the man aims his wand at the Ranger and gets nothing. His Use Magic Device Check requires a 7 or better to succeed, a Theme for the day is that the bad guy with the most interesting concept will not roll above a 5. He has 2 chances to use the wand and fails both times. There is no 3rd chance as the Party puts him down, then stabilizes him.

They find a dog in the next room and the Ranger quickly puts his moves on the dog. Poor thing had no idea what hit him, one second he is a faithful defender of the fishery, the next he is a faithful friend to this complete stranger who walked up and charmed the pants off of him…if he wore pants at any rate.

No Ghaedren. They ask some of the children, several poor diplomacy checks later the kids are about to bolt in fear, they now fear the party as much as Lamms men. Finally they pull together some good Diplomacy and it is revealed to them that below the building is a lair that Lamm hides in.

Down the ropes through the floor they go. Sadly the Dextrous Fighter Rogue slips and falls into the water. You guessed it…Shark!!!!!

Several rounds later after the Shoanti has also fallen into the water and the fighter Rogue finally just had had it and attacked the Shark, actually killing it, the party finds itself on a dock, in front of a door ready to confront the old man. They all take a deep breath and pop open the door.

With all the noise fighting the shark and falling into the water, Ghaedren Lamm had no difficulties hearing them coming and has readied an attack….that misses. And thus poor Ghaedren’s luck will not improve much.

The Party moves in. There is much yelling and name calling here, in case there are children or sensitive ears I won’t mention any of the vile words used by either side. Suffice it to say penance will probably have to be made…

Ghaedren shoots his faithful friend Gobblegut an Alligator of medium size that proceeds to attack the fighter Rogue and take him to 0 hp’s. The Cleric, knowing the rogue was hit but not knowing how bad moved to beside the rogue preparing to attack Ghaedren. The sneaky rogue and the Ranger moved around to the far side of the room where they could target the old man with their Heavy Crossbows.

The Fighter Rogue Attacks the Alligator, missing then fall’s to -1. The cleric then attacks the Alligator and heals the rogue (quickened channeling) Bringing the rogue to conscious. The rogue makes another attack from beneath the Alligator, scoring a hit and some hefty damage even without sneak attack. The Cleric then “Smites” the Alligator finishing the Alligator, meanwhile the other two have cornered Ghaedran and he is failing his Bluff checks trying to get sneak attack off on them and trying to talk various peple in the room into switching sides, non of them are biting. 2 rounds later the killing blow is done and Ghaedren Lamm is dead.

There is nothing much left to do but loot the place and head out. In their searches they come upon a hatbox with flies buzzing about it. Opening the box they find the head of a woman and a deck of Harrow cards. Upon further examination they recognize it as the head of the woman who sent them here to find Ghaedren. She seems to have been dead for weeks…

She materializes before them and tells them of how Ghaedren had slain her and how she had reached out through the power of her harrow deck as well as the force of her will to find the party, bring them together and to exact her revenge upon Ghaedren through them. She begged them to come together for the good of Korvosa, a City in need of heroes like them and she warned that the city would be needing them soon.

The party also decided to examine a ship tied up to the docks out back, thinking that if they could take it, it would fetch a handsome price. After boarding the Ship and finding it infested with what the fighter Rogue called Pirates (merely drain spiders a tiny spider with a nasty bite) they discovered that the ship was pretty worthless and at this point it was more of a permanent addition to the docks than anything that anyone would want to take.

At this point they were given their Experience and we broke up for the day. The party has leveled up.

Sneaky Rogue, took another level of Rogue. He was quite excited to try out a Rogue Talent. Didn’t record which one he took, but I’m sure it will make him happy.

Ranger took a level of Sorcerer to complement the heavy Roleplaying he was performing with Zellara and the Harrow deck. He accumulated enough Fate Points to purchase the Harrower Feat from the Player’s Guide. This is a very nicely themed Feat to go with a Well Themed Character.

Fighter Rogue, Took a level of Fighter so now he truly fits the description. There was much debate about the feat for this character and while something was decided on, I have a feeling we’ll be revisiting that before we start back up.

Cleric. Took another level of Cleric, a theme to be seen repeated a lot I am thinking. Though one day here soon the temptation to take Barbarian will probably just be to much.

I have run a couple of CMB scenarios where I ran CMB at the same party again and again. Here are the two things I think would make it work.

1) Add Dex to the CMB. This allows dex based fighter types (and rogues and rangers and even some wizards and sorcerers but not those pesky gnomes, we don't want them CMBing the place up) to get into the act. It harms the big fella's just a bit, however they didn't seem to notice the power drop when we tried it.

B) Go back to opposed rolls. d20+CMB vs d20+CMB for all the maneuvers. No touch attack, make a nice little list of order 1st declare your maneuver, 2nd if there is an AOO then take it (and prevent said maneuver with a hit) if there is no AOO or if it misses move on to 3, 3rd both sides roll d20+CMB High side wins Ties reroll or they should go to the defender (don't care which just make sure to state it clearly and obviously) 4th Resolve the maneuver, 5th Eat the cookies

If the opposing rolls are to much (and I can imagine the hate mail I'll get over it but no worries I am leaving town soon and won't be back until the next section of the playtest is up) then please consider dropping the 15 down to 12 or even 10 (I prefer 10).

Thanks for your consideration, oh and for all the effort you at Paizo are putting into this and letting us all try to muck it up for you.

I have seen numerous ideas for adding Damage Reduction to Armor. Without changing the AC system, adding DR to Medium and Heavy Armors could enhance the armors greatly, without breaking the current system. Adamantine would just add. I think if Medium Armors started with DR 1/- and Heavy had DR 2/- You might find a lot more heavy armor tank characters. The High AC, High HP characters would have more of a niche.

Can we make Shield bonus apply to touch AC please? I think that this change alone will make shields vastly more popular and practical.

Please, if for no other reason than to save bindings, please put the Exotic materials for weapons and armor in the equipment section. Make clear that they are extremely expensive, but move them forward.

So, I dm'd this past weekend, did I mention that? Here is a report on what happened.I built my small little dungeon crawl on the premise of testing 3 things out.

1 Turning using the Channel energy rules.

2 CMB

3 Trapfinding using a variant where anyone can "Search" for traps by declaring a Perception check, but the rogue gets a passive perception check whenever he comes within 10 feet of a trap.

Let us look at each thing seperately.

1 Turning: I have a cleric (my character but I let the guys decide when to use his channeling and spells) At the beginning he was 2nd level cleric/1st level Marshall. The first encounter was a pack of Skeletons. 2 wolf skeletons and 6 humanoids. My cleric Channeled twice. There is an oddity in the Channeling rules. The damage was fine, and luckily the other PC's needed a bit of healing by the time it came to my turn. The rules give the undead a Will save for 1/2 damage and get to shrug off the fear effect of the channeling. Regular old skeletons had no trouble shrugging off the effect. I understand that it is low level character and that the DC goes up 1 every 2 levels. However, could it at least be a Fort Save? The will on undead is pretty steep. They saved for 1/2 and no flee. While admittedly the raw damage was pretty good, I could only make one of 8 undead flee. A bit odd. This character was built for Channeling. Cha 16 (The best a dwarf can get) extra turning (this should be extra channeling btw), Selective Channeling. Otherwise I like the channeling.

2 CMB: The other combat encounters were pretty much CMB builds. An Ogre Fighter with the Bullrush/Awesome blow build (bull rush), 2 Direwolves (trip), and Owlbear (grapple). All the encounters were Large creatures that were built to do what they were designed for, cmbing it up. The PC's as you will notice were all Dwarves so they got a +4 against the Bullrush and Trip (not to mention the AC enhancement against the Ogre) One Note: We used CMB = BAB + Str + Dex + Size + Racial. The DC was 10+CMB.
Some observations here. 10 + Dex inclusive CMB works much better. These creatures were all very good at what they did and were able to still do their cmb's but at the same time the balance seemed right. They still failed occassionally. Poor Dice rolls failed. A couple of decent rolls failed (tripping a dwarf is not easy) but a few decent ones succeeded (grappling a dwarf is easier than tripping him). Was it conclusive? No...we couldn't run the fights several times again and again to see what the numbers did. But my feeling was that 10+CMB works. Here is my suggestion though. Use the Dex inclusive CMB and go back to opposed rolls. d20 + CMB vs d20 + CMB. Not saying to go back to 3.5, don't worry about the initial touch attack (the Dex keeps some of that anyway). In my experience as a DM (over 25+ years) including 2 long 3.5 campaigns involving trip characters the touch portion of trips/grapples was never an issue anyway. It was so rare that touch attack missed to start one of these maneuvers that just skipping to the opposed roll should not be a problem.

3. Trapfinding: This worked out pretty well, though our ninja was built more for combat (I ghost step) than he was trapfinding. And it turns out the Player has discovered that trapfinding isn't something he enjoys much. Something about to many Rolls of the Dice with to little success. "You take 12 hp's", "Ok...I disable... 17 again..." "You take 10 hp's" *Sigh*. The "spotting" aspect of traps seemed to work, but there weren't enough trap encounters to truly make a judgement. But, between this and my other playtest, I expect that this is a good idea. The key seems to be to have a pre-rolled list of Perception checks from characters with the trapfinding ability if you let them do it as a passive search, ie whenever they move within 10' of the trap.

We used the roll 4d6 and drop the lowest. The ability scores across the board in this campaign were quite a bit higher than in campaigns past using the same method.

One side note about the fate point system that I mentioned above. At character creation players may chose to use some of their points to upgrade their character. (yes I know this may overpower the characters but so far as long as I upgrade the mod's creatures a bit it works out quite well)one option is to take the +1 or +0 level adjustment races from the MM. Another is to take a 0-level of an NPC class that does not count against the characters level.

We have a Cleric of Calistria. The player chose this goddess for the revenge aspect off the chart in the beta and CotCT Players Guide. A high Charisma and almost as high Wis and seems to be building on the Whip and the Channeling abilities. Sadly, it wasn't until after we got started that the player and I started researching into Calistria and discovered that she is a bit more racey than we were originally imagining her. Perhaps some aspect of her nature could be included in the final book, along with the other gods. A chart reference doesn't do justice to the intent of this goddess. This Player chose to augment his character with a level of Expert. His theme was a gambler type character, card playing and basic roguery giving way to a deep faith.

We have a Rogue, The player is quite interested in the new talents, so I see him staying Rogue, though he does have a tendency to let his eyes wander to other classes occasionally, so it is possible he may grab a level of Fighter, though he chose a 0-level of Warrior. He chose the Spiked chain as his main weapon, and has spoken of taking the vexing Flanker (able to flank from more places).

We have another Rogue, but one who is intent on multiclassing Ranger. She may have the weakest stats at the table, but still has good enough stats to pull this off. She took a level of Warrior as well, more for the HP's than the BAB I think, as she sees herself front lining quite a bit. Her Feat Choices were Exotic Weapon Bastard Sword, and Two-Weapon Fighting.

We have a Sorcerer, Celestial Bloodline. When we created the group we thought we would be limited to 5 PC's so he wanted to have a little back up healing ability and really liked the Bloodline theme as well. He intends to go the Force Caster Route. Magic Missile and the Force Missile spells from the Compendium. He took Weapon Finesse as well as his Dex is amazing and he wants to be able to back up the front line. Shield spell, high Dex and rapier have him sitting in a good place as a back up. He took the Aristocrat 0-level. He really liked the skill list and the background he chose and crafted fit very well with Aristocrat. It also gave him a choice of weapons that he liked.

The last of our original 5 is an Orc (yes full orc) Barbarian. With a little tweaking here and there he has managed to make it a viable character *cough sarcasm cough* This player is our least rule savy player. He loves to go big and swing hard. The other players convinced him that a 22 strength to start would outweigh any roleplaying issues he would have, since he likes to play the bdf anyway this just makes it easier. The fate point's remove the lightsensitivity but the cost of Orc is he did not get to take a 0-level class. So as you can imagine his top Stat is larger than his bottom three stats put together. His dex and con are good 16ish each. He is using the Beta Barbarian rage points as we haven't seen the fit to examine the new system posted on the boards yet. This week I may print a copy of the updated rage point system and read it thoroughly and then sit down with the player and see which he wants to use. (Keep it simple stupid is the best way to go here. He is a smart guy, just isn't a rules jockey. He just wants to beat things and people down now and then nothing more)