|
I have seen numerous ideas for adding Damage Reduction to Armor. Without changing the AC system, adding DR to Medium and Heavy Armors could enhance the armors greatly, without breaking the current system. Adamantine would just add. I think if Medium Armors started with DR 1/- and Heavy had DR 2/- You might find a lot more heavy armor tank characters. The High AC, High HP characters would have more of a niche.
|
That might be workable...
I had created an elaborate DR system on the Alpha boards, but that one is nice and simple...maybe make it 2/- and 4/- though. Then change adamantine armor to make the additional DR only 1/- and 2/-. which would give 3/- to medium adamantine armors and DR 6/- to heavy adamantine armors.
I agree that it might cause more players to consider heavy armored tanks. I know in my campaigns players more often build dex based light armor fighters so I'd love to see some encouragement towards more heavily armored tanks.
I'm not for changing armor to DR, even a little, because its not how 3.5 is set up, and it is, again, a change that seems isolated but has a huge effect on the underpinnings of the game across the board.
The abstract way combat works in D&D is not set up for armor as DR. Mixing an matching armor increasing your "defense" as well as giving DR is worse than just making armor a DR factor. Not to mention it makes adamantine even trickier to figure out.
|
|
I'm not for changing armor to DR, even a little, because its not how 3.5 is set up, and it is, again, a change that seems isolated but has a huge effect on the underpinnings of the game across the board.
The abstract way combat works in D&D is not set up for armor as DR. Mixing an matching armor increasing your "defense" as well as giving DR is worse than just making armor a DR factor. Not to mention it makes adamantine even trickier to figure out.
I am not arguing to remove any AC value, just add a DR 1/- to medium and DR 2/- to Heavy Armors. As for Adamantine, it simply stacks. Short of ramping up the AC's of armor, this seems a much better way to keep armor useful. As it is I have seen to many fighter/paladin builds that kept strickly to their Light Armor regime. Add a little blow softening and the armored tank can shine once more.
|
I have play tested this before when Unearthed Arcan came out. We tries several variants.
First we just added DR to the system as is. We diecided against it simply because it wasted a lot of time. We would roll to hit and succeed, then roll to damage and find either nothing made it through or a tiny bit did. Combats became VERY long (20+ rounds).
Next we removed Armor AC from the to hit roll and kept DR. We hit more often, and iterative attacks became spectacular. But again we found combat taking longer to whittle away at the HPs.
Finally we tried a major change. We removed Armor from AC, left DR but reduced Hit Points to no more than your Con Score. We finally found a balance we liked with the amount of time we wanted for combat.
In the end, we went back to the standard system since we really didn't gain much from it.
So, yes, I think it is a COOL idea, but in play we found it made combat too long.
|
|
I have play tested this before when Unearthed Arcan came out. We tries several variants.
First we just added DR to the system as is. We diecided against it simply because it wasted a lot of time. We would roll to hit and succeed, then roll to damage and find either nothing made it through or a tiny bit did. Combats became VERY long (20+ rounds).
Next we removed Armor AC from the to hit roll and kept DR. We hit more often, and iterative attacks became spectacular. But again we found combat taking longer to whittle away at the HPs.
Finally we tried a major change. We removed Armor from AC, left DR but reduced Hit Points to no more than your Con Score. We finally found a balance we liked with the amount of time we wanted for combat.
In the end, we went back to the standard system since we really didn't gain much from it.
So, yes, I think it is a COOL idea, but in play we found it made combat too long.
right now we are trying a system thatgives half the AC as DR
ok iam also using defelction rules isntead of AC... but i will tell you how that works
|
|
I have play tested this before when Unearthed Arcan came out. We tries several variants.
First we just added DR to the system as is. We diecided against it simply because it wasted a lot of time. We would roll to hit and succeed, then roll to damage and find either nothing made it through or a tiny bit did. Combats became VERY long (20+ rounds).
Next we removed Armor AC from the to hit roll and kept DR. We hit more often, and iterative attacks became spectacular. But again we found combat taking longer to whittle away at the HPs.
Finally we tried a major change. We removed Armor from AC, left DR but reduced Hit Points to no more than your Con Score. We finally found a balance we liked with the amount of time we wanted for combat.
In the end, we went back to the standard system since we really didn't gain much from it.
So, yes, I think it is a COOL idea, but in play we found it made combat too long.
right now we are trying a system thatgives half the AC as DR
ok iam also using defelction rules isntead of AC... but i will tell you how that works
Very interesting. Any method that can get DR applied to Armor without it making combat TOO long is great by me. Too long being subjective of course.
Surely there is a way to do it. I just have not found it yet. Hopefully you do :)
|
|
right now we are trying a system thatgives half the AC as DR
ok iam also using defelction rules isntead of AC... but i will tell you how that works
Very interesting. Any method that can get DR applied to Armor without it making combat TOO long is great by me. Too long being subjective of course.
Surely there is a way to do it. I just have not found it yet. Hopefully you do :)
don't use AC
let the players get deflection bonus as mopdern D20 and other sourcesenemies are hit more, but absorbe some of the damage
but any game thatuse DR is sure to increase combat time, just ebcause all of the involvedare a bit more durable
I have seen numerous ideas for adding Damage Reduction to Armor. Without changing the AC system, adding DR to Medium and Heavy Armors could enhance the armors greatly, without breaking the current system. Adamantine would just add. I think if Medium Armors started with DR 1/- and Heavy had DR 2/- You might find a lot more heavy armor tank characters. The High AC, High HP characters would have more of a niche.
I agree with the poster who stated this idea would mostly just lengthen combat. It not only takes longer to diminish hit points, it also adds another step into each combat. As opposed to Compare Attack Roll To AC, Then Subtract Damage Roll from Hit Points, now EVERY roll has to compare deal with DR.
Yes, I know this issues come up when fighting monsters with Damage Reduction. I consider it a pain in the rear then as well. Usually in these instances, it's localized.
The real effect of this, however, will be to drive players even further from melee characters to casters. Magic will now be the ultimate damage dealing tool because every weapon will diminished in some way. While fighters will take weapon specialization solely to overcome heavy armor DR, mages will continue to lob fireballs with impunity. The damage differences between the arcane and melee classes will only grow wider.
Armor is a factor to protect against physical attacks, but adding in DR makes the physical attacks much less appealing. You'd not only have to hit them (which may be tricky if they're wearing heavy armor), but your damage would automatically be lessened. A magic missile wouldn't suffer either problem.
|
|
I have seen numerous ideas for adding Damage Reduction to Armor. Without changing the AC system, adding DR to Medium and Heavy Armors could enhance the armors greatly, without breaking the current system. Adamantine would just add. I think if Medium Armors started with DR 1/- and Heavy had DR 2/- You might find a lot more heavy armor tank characters. The High AC, High HP characters would have more of a niche.I agree with the poster who stated this idea would mostly just lengthen combat. It not only takes longer to diminish hit points, it also adds another step into each combat. As opposed to Compare Attack Roll To AC, Then Subtract Damage Roll from Hit Points, now EVERY roll has to compare deal with DR.
Yes, I know this issues come up when fighting monsters with Damage Reduction. I consider it a pain in the rear then as well. Usually in these instances, it's localized.
The real effect of this, however, will be to drive players even further from melee characters to casters. Magic will now be the ultimate damage dealing tool because every weapon will diminished in some way. While fighters will take weapon specialization solely to overcome heavy armor DR, mages will continue to lob fireballs with impunity. The damage differences between the arcane and melee classes will only grow wider.
Armor is a factor to protect against physical attacks, but adding in DR makes the physical attacks much less appealing. You'd not only have to hit them (which may be tricky if they're wearing heavy armor), but your damage would automatically be lessened. A magic missile wouldn't suffer either problem.
mmmm you are right about nerfing melee types.
Dang it anyway.
DR apply to spells too ;)
Maybe DR just isn't going to work without extensive reworking to the system.
mmmm you are right about nerfing melee types.
Dang it anyway.
DR apply to spells too ;)
Maybe DR just isn't going to work without extensive reworking to the system.
I'm afraid it wouldn't. Which is too bad, because I play in a number of other d20 games where it works very well. Some of Monte Cooke's approaches to Defense and DR is very dynamic, because players make a choice between not getting hit or getting hit and soaking the damage.
With the complex and nuanced DR rules already in PRPG and 3.5, I don't think adding in more DR solves the problem.
Unless you're a barbarian. In that case, more DR solves any problem your Greataxe can't.
... right now we are trying a system that gives half the AC as DR ...
That sounds like something I would be interested in playtesting. It makes a little bit more sense to me than just saying Light/Medium/Heavy have "x" amount of DR and varying the DR according to the armor chosen instead.
In my games we currently use the system a little bit different. We use the Defense system of the UA, except that you add the levels of classes with similar armor proficiencies (so ranger 2 and rogue 2 is equal to 4 levels of light armor), you have a -4 penalty (minimum 0) in any different table you multiclass. This actually makes the Ac really interestingly high.
The armor we use as DR. Half the value of the normal Ac value as DR. It isn't perfect, but it's something. The pcs are relatively harder to kill.
Since we also use Wound and Vitality points (with tweaks) armor's still great, since it can soak up some of those Wound points you took...
I say, give heavy armor a little love with some small dr. Really, it should be somewhat good.
I also think this would be worth playtesting. Iron Heroes has in interesting method for DR, in that Armors *only* add DR, they don't increase your Defense (or AC), but the amount of protection a given suit of mail provides is random (i.e. Plate Armor provides a d8 of DR). This makes sense because some parts of any suit of armor is easier to penetrate than other parts.
The CONAN RPG also has an interesting Armor as DR system. DR is not random, but weapons provide AP (armor penetration), which lowers the DR of the armor. There are also offensive tricks to bypass armor.
Brother Willi argued that DR didn't make sense because it wouldn't help action magic missiles & fireballs, etc. My counter argument is, "So what? Armor doesn't help against those things either, with the exception of touch spells, but in either place, DR could simply apply.
My concern is when facing very-low power opponents, no matter how many of them there are. A lot of vermin types have a hard enough time doing 1 point of damage. Being able to ignore monsters is in my mind a bad thing.
I had a character in a LARP that had a 1 point DR effectively, and the organizers sent a horde of rats, which could only do 1 point of damage.
The battle was just silly, and dreadfully tiring :P
|
|
My concern is when facing very-low power opponents, no matter how many of them there are. A lot of vermin types have a hard enough time doing 1 point of damage. Being able to ignore monsters is in my mind a bad thing.
I had a character in a LARP that had a 1 point DR effectively, and the organizers sent a horde of rats, which could only do 1 point of damage.
The battle was just silly, and dreadfully tiring :P
does your character wore metal boots? i would apply after a while saving throws to your equipment to see how long it lasted
damned rats are able to penetrate even metal given the time... leather (which is the matterial of most boths and panths) would not last too longother form of using it is like a bat swarm... its more distractring than anything else, but i would aply 1 hp damage authomatic per turn... why? if they are able to climb up to you are you dressing compeltly from head to toe? no? well then you have rats climbing over you trying to bite your face, your hands... jsut imagine the desperation fo being in a swarm of rats, metal armor or not...
the problem with that encounter is that it was very baddly handled :S
butthanks now i have an idea against my players :D
1 in particular will hate it... :D
I am also using DR for armors, as per Unearthed Arcana, ie half of the armor bonus.
But i decided not to reduce the armor factor as suggested by UA.
So it gives this :
Leather Armor = AC+2, DR1
Chainmail = AC+5, DR2
Full Plate = AC+8, DR4
Same thing for shields. Basically half of the protection is used as DR.
Does it slow the combat ? Not in my game.
And still i am using hit locations and advanced critical hits.
|
I posted this in another thread of the same vein some time ago:
I have long been a fan of armor as damage reduction. I actually stole the idea from the late Elric! RPG aeons ago. Here is what I have done for the d20 system:
Defense Bonus: Add your BAB and base Reflex score together and then halve it, rounding down. This gives you a bonus if your class is highly combative and thus trained to avoid blows, or highly reflexive and thus able to dodge effectively or instinctively. Note this bonus is only derived from your base Reflex bonus and attack bonus, not your modified ones.
Protection: This is the value of damage reduction you gain from wearing armor. It is calculated as a die roll equal to the total armor bonus that you have accrued. A flat DR is too game breaking, but the die roll allows for some randomness and fun, surprisingly. Armor bonuses, including natural armor go into this pool. Shields deflect, and thus become Defense.
Cons: This is a bit of mechanics, but really isn't too challenging of math. It also will slow your game down a tad, until your players get used to it. Mine roll protection as they are being attacked. Your players and adversaries will get hit more often, but take slightly less damage.
Pros: More realistic by far, and pretty simple to implement. While the cons may make some sneer, I haven't had anyone who has actually tried this not like it. I run a lot of sci-fi, and to have bullets bounce off your plate armor or the dragons flesh is really a great cinematic. The players get into it and love the rolling and excitement it brings to combat.
Try it and tell me what you think, we love it!