Say that they are using a concoction made from basilisk blood. Basilisk blood is already known from the statblock to have un-petrifying effects. Then you can let the party quest to find the stuff, or someone willing to sell it to them.
This is too easy. A simple fire trap spell will burn the documents up as soon as they trigger it. This will leave them with whatever "conveniently" survives. The trigger is breaking a seal or opening a folded letter.
My advice would be to fold the Odyssey section into the main plot. They still are sailing about, but they already are traveling to each city-state, so there is little need to stall them with too much side questing. Plus, you don't really need an excuse for some god or another t be mad enough to force them onto plot-point-island. They are already set to upset most of the pantheon and earn the curse of every city.
I recommend having the fight be in a canyon between glaciers, with the bottom open to the dark foreboding arctic sea. Its one thing to dual wield, another to do it while climbing, and if they use spider climb or the like, the dragon uses spells or ice shape to slide the ice wall down into the sea. The dragon can ice walk to make up for poor flying conditions, and there should be a blizzard to obscure visibility.
Use the burrow speed to attack from inside the glacier, and swim speed to take to the sea. Whatever they cannot follow becomes safe haven
Let the dragon raid consumables from its hoard under the sea or in a hollow inside the glacier.
Choose spells that let the dragon set up permanent advantages in its lair. a stunn or loss of actions could mean they fall off the canyon wall. Loathsome veil is good. Symbol of stunning is better.
Some kind of sea creatures could inhabit the lower canyon, or some other creature could be bullied into being an ally. It needs something.
Worst case scenario: the dragon has a mate. Doesnt even have to be the same age catagory, just one or two lower to round out action economy.
High wind can make archery difficult or impossible, but will also make flying hard. The dragon has infinate Control Weather to set this up.
disarm weapons and drop them in the sea.
Suggestion Spell: go for a refreshing swim.
Plenty of defensive spells like mirror image and displacement.
The key is that the long drop with sheer walls gives the dragon a mobility advantage again without being a flying kite again.
There was an AD&D supplement on castles. For the life of me I can't remember its title, but it basically went with: Yes you can use undead labor, but they require so much supervision that there is no real advantage over just using peasants.
I think it would be best to use undead like draft animals. The skeleton crew (pun intended) can't shape the blocks for your pyramid of Necro-potence. But by Orcus can they haul them!
I could see jungle dwelling elves combating green and black dragons by firing arrows coated in Dex poison. Then coating themselves in clay mud to protect from acidic breath.
Divination wizards tend to be good for this as they get an initiative bonus, and as wizards that turns into getting a game ending spell of first. The higher level wizard, the better this works, but even at low levels there is color spray and sleep.
Ranged Martials aren't half bad though. You don't have to move into position to start chaingunning through their health.
Really its going to be a formula of Initiative + Win condition.
After a casual look-over. This seems like a really cool system.
My thoughts in no particular order:
This could be helped by simplifying the devices. Or at least having simple devices to start on. All the ones i looked at had continuous effect, pool requirement, activation effects, and special circumstances for activation, and rather complex effects once activated.
Is there a way to work up to multi-use stuff?
Does the heat from the boiler affect the character at all?
Can there be a condenser to re-use water?
How do i attach my bottle of air and decanter of endless water? There is potential to supercharge these (I realise this is the opposite of simple, but I think players will jump on this as soon as they are comphertable with the rules)
Are there external boilers?
Are heat bricks like the black clay item, or a continuous heat source?
Does all this stuff have to be integrated into armor?
Overall, the extra armor rules were the only ones that gave me pause. The pool system seems fine, much like how grit or other class features work.
check old maps of the chinese empire at various eras. During ages of strife, the whole area broke into smaller states, and there is even some census data from the time. Chinese written records go back a long time, so finding some rough population estimates and territory sizes is simple enough.
Or, just look at your terrain to figure out natural borders, like mountains or rivers. The size of the kingdoms should develop from that.
there are plenty of good monsters to introduce a mechanic at lower level before it becomes common.
lizardmen- aquatic rules
trolls- regeneration
kobolds- traps
goblins- ambush (they have a net +10 stealth out of the box)
wolves- trip
vermin- poison and disease
shadows- incorporeal, ability drain
zombies and skeletons- undead (channel, holy water, DR, ect.)
grick- DR (low attack, slow and DR 10/magic, a good learning experience)
ettercap- a good starter boss: traps, minions, affliction, and lair
be sure to issue the kits from the Equipment book, they give a decent set of tools for low level.
Some suggestions:
Mix up some classes with clerics, juju oracles, and the like
Change who follows them around, monks, wizards, cultists, brainwashed townsfolk....
Change what undead minions they favor, if any
Also, try having them use animate object on a corpse and mix it in with the zombies. It is a construct that looks undead.
In places on earth where the dead returning was seen as a legitimate concern, steps were taken to keep these "revenants" from rising. The ones I know about are:
Burying a corpse of a criminal at a crossroads, so if they arise they will be lost/ paralyzed with indecision and not make it back to you.
Staking/nailing a copse down into its grave.
burying with a handful of beads, beans or flax seeds. When the revenant awoke at night it would be compelled to count the seeds until morning when it becomes a corpse again.
Beheading the body and burying the head by the feet.
Binding the body with cords.
As a note, the magic item crafting rules let you craft an item that uses a spell above your own abilities, if you make the spellcraft checks. Read carefully.
The only time ive used disease so far, barring monster attacks, is during a jungle adveture. The party sloged through the river and damp and mud, and i used disease rolls to quickly instil a sense of foreboding and danger to the area. Once the mood was set, i backed off and let the PCs "acclimate."
i have trouble keepin track of more than 8 or so monsters, so unless its a special occasion, i usually have that as a soft cap. Having a horde of extremely weak monsters isn't usually too deadly, as the damage ability of most low CR baddies wont keep up with PC defences. But there are exeptions, like shadows. Shadows stay dangerous for a long time.
Not only is the RPG explosive, but it directs a jet of plasma directly ahead of it when it detonates (that's how it takes out armoured vehicles). On a living creature, aside from the concussive force of the blast and the shrapnel damage, the jet will vaporise flesh to some depth. It may not kill a bebelith or dragon, but it will surely hurt it.
You forget that both those creatures have more defenses than an elephant. Red dragons would be immune to fire damage, so no searing plasma. And a Bebelith has DR10/good, so unless its a holy rpg, no shrapnel. Picking a faster maturing dragon like Brass gives both DR and Immune: fire for the same CR 10. Plus due to the way armor is abstracted, the natural armor of either might just absorb the hit.
Incidently, the Beblith's Dismantle Armor ability would be great against Daleks.
climb checks to enter or exit from a window, bypassing the stairs completely. Intimidate or diplomacy to calm panicking people enough to get them to move the right way.
don't explain it. Just have him show up and your players will do cartwheels to give you all sorts of ideas why it happened. If asked, just be ambiguous.
The Tome of Horrors is 3rd party, but has Lilin it is a devil version of a succubus at cr 6, but has no shape change, being focused on at will charm and suggestion.
The Infernal Syndrome: Council of thieves 4 has the Cabal Devil, CR10 and closer to what you seem to be looking for.
there is a version of battle cleric called 'the bad-touch cleric' that focuses on debuffing and battlefield control. maybe thats you new schtick. a cleric of erastil can be a decent archer/ buffer. the guides can help.
While in the past rakshasa have been specifically vulnerable to "blessed bolts" in this edition the weakness is a little broader.
The beastiary rakshasa has DR15/ good and piercing. Meaning that every hit will be reduced by 15 points of damage unless you attack with a piercing weapon that is also good aligned. Blessed crossbow bolts are one example of such a weapon, but so is a holy lance.
Getting a weapon to be good aligned as a ranger can come from the align weapon spell, or getting bolts with the holy property.
Putting a few construction points on your luggage might help if you are willing to spring for the extra cost. This is needed if you are making it out of anything other than standard wood.
Ladies, Gentlemen, and World Cruching Monstrosities. The solution to this matter is quite simple. The key is, once the tarrasque has been killed, before it regenerates, cast animate dead on the corpse to turn it into a skeleton. This requires a caster level of 15, and a 750gp onyx gem. The skeleton template removes all defensive abilities, and all special qualities that are not Ex abilities that improve melee or ranged attacks. The tarrasque now is dead and no longer has regeneration.
That is correct. both caster and archer gain benefit from a fly speed. Druids, less so due to wildshape + natural spell being an option already. But a ranged weapon can let you plink foes in your off turns, as druids don't start with alot of spells. Wind subdomain would benefit from air affinity, but if you don't choose it, breeze kissed is a good trade to get a useful racial feature.
Trade Air affinity for breeze kissed unless you want air domain. Work airy step and wings of air into your build to get a fly speed and more air based resistances.
Archery builds will benefit.
Carved horn ivory, or sandstone would make for good holy symbols.
Birthmark makes your body a divine focus and it's a faith trait.
Not as sure on non-racial traits, but beast of the society is decent for a wildshaper if your dm will let it fly. Reactionary is a favorite for all builds, Birthmark gives a built in holy symbol. then i would recommend whatever gets you a new class skill you want.
147 Anatomist Sketchbook
The pages of this artist's sketchbook are high quality rag paper, bound in soft leather, with the contents written and drawn by silver point stylus. The first section contains several artistic studies, including some tasteful nudes, and a few picturesque landscapes. The middle section is a set of highly accurate anatomical drawings and dissections of the humanoid form, annotated in detail. The end pages are filled with strange geometric diagrams, hieroglyphs and arcane formulas.
The book gives a +2 bonus to Heal checks if the reader takes 1d4 minutes to consult the diagrams. Furthermore, A mage who makes a sucessfull spellcraft check DC:28 can use the information in the book to construct a flesh golem of medium size as if he or she had the Craft Construct feat, and make it look like a living humanoid.
Anatomist Flesh Golem CR5:
N Medium Construct
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +0
Defense
AC 18, touch 11, flat-footed 17 (+1 Dex, +7 Natural Armor)
hp 53 (6d10+20)
Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +2
Defensive Abilities:
DR 5/Adameantine; Immune Construct traits, Magic
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 slams +10 (1d8+4)
Statistics
Str 18, Dex 12, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 21
Special Attacks: Beserk
Special Abilities:
Berserk: When a flesh golem enters combat, there is a cumulative 1% chance each round that its elemental spirit breaks free and the golem goes berserk. The uncontrolled golem goes on a rampage, attacking the nearest living creature or smashing some object smaller than itself if no creature is within reach, then moving on to spread more destruction. The golem's creator, if within 60 feet, can try to regain control by speaking firmly and persuasively to the golem, which requires a DC 19 Charisma check. It takes 1 minute of inactivity by the golem to reset the golem's berserk chance to 0%.
Immunity to Magic: A flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.
A magical attack that deals cold or fire damage slows a flesh golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds (no save).
A magical attack that deals electricity damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. A flesh golem gets no saving throw against attacks that deal electricity damage.
Uncanny Likeness: An Anatomist flesh golem looks like a medium humanoid. It takes a DC 25 perception check to discern the golems nonliving nature by sight. The Anatomist Flesh Golem still cannot speak.
143 The Immaterial World
This rather hefty tome details at length the philosophical theories of an ancient illusionist. His "immaterialist" theory is that all of existence is an elaborate illusion projected directly to the non-corporeal mind. The work cites several magical examples such as the phantasm subschool and in particular the effect of phantasmal killer as proving that sensation is reality. The last chapters detail the workings of spells the author claims he has devised to further prove the illusory nature of existance. The spells detailed are the shadow illusion subschool, Shadow Conjuration, and Shadow Evocation.
The Core Rulebook is really explicit that GMs should allow Uncommon things by default if the PCs work for them.
I'm looking for a GM allowing my cleric to get the uncommon cantrip Inspire Courage, as well as a lot of focus spell. I'm OK to work for this, but I don't want to spend a feat - the fighter doesn't spend a feat to get an uncommon shield or weapon, the wizard doesn't spend a feat to get the teleport spell. Do you know any GM allowing that? Are you looking for players (since you seems to allow that)?
And finally, the action cost of Shield Block is just a Reaction. You don't get to count the action to Raise Shield, because it actually already gave you its benefits, which are as significant as blocking with a Sturdy Shield on their own - thanks Megistone for doing the research!
You're totally right. If I raise my shield, then the shield block feat magically appears on my character sheet and I just need a reaction. That's how the game works.
Look, when I wrote "nobody would break a sweat" in my last post, I actually meant "nobody, except a few number of gardian of the temple (like you or the drake) who think everything in the game has reached a perfect balance". I'm not interested in your opinion, since I already know it - everyone knows it. I'm interrested in other's people opinion, especially people who didn't envisage the simple possibility of simply removing the HP of shields. Maybe someone will explain why "infinite-except-it's-limited-on-a-per-round-basis" 6 damage prevention is too powerful, and why it should be "once per day". Maybe someone else will say that spellguard should only prevent 3 damages if it becomes "infinite-if-we-ignore-every-cost". Maybe, just maybe, some people will look at the shields, at the effect of shield block, and say I'm right, a shield should just do its job like a sword or an armor. But yout opinion? Look, there are already 15 pages filled with your opinion, your opinion again, and your opinion again and again and again, although this opinion didn't change in any way. Thanks, but I'm already full, I don't need it any more.
Just the concept that is is the first RPG I've sever seen (and probably ever) where shields are not meant for blocking attacks is silly. This goes beyond game mechanics and more about the theme of Pathfinder: The most heroic high fantasy game with no grittyness, but shields break in one hit if you try to use them. I realize the shield mechanics were to make them more interesting, but it just doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. Everything should be breaking, then? Or maybe items should be used in the same way they are in any other game/movie/story.
^ this
Shield block is so odd, it seems to be a house rule coming from another game - from some gritty game where the PC must repair their equipment or see their sword and armor break.
So in a game of unbreakable weapons and armors, in a game with very precise WBL rules, shields are consumables priced as permanent items. Wait; what?
At least, they break for an awesome effect, like... preventing 6 damage, in a game where any level 1 character has more than twice this amount of HP? I mean, sturdy shields are so awesome, a level 20 sturudy shield can literally be replaced by a few level 1 minion and the ability "human shield: you throw a minion in the way. The minion suffers the damages of the attack up to his full HP, you suffer the remaining damages."
Oh, and it doesn't only cost the shield, it cost also a feat, one free hand, one action, and one reaction. To prevent a few damage. That's probably the least cost-effective way of gaining a few HP in the whole game. And it costs micro-management (counting the HP of the shield), because micro-management is awesome?
And we're here with 15 pages explaining how preventing 6 damages is so awesome, it would be the only viable build in the whole game if the shield didn't break. OK, what about the following fighter build:
- dueling dance.
- bandolier
- 800 level 6 healing potion (they cost as much as a max-level sturdy shield, and heal 23 hp - more than one shield block with such a shield).
I guess this is the build used by every fighter, since he gains the bonus AC and regains 23 HP per turn at the cost of one action. He could even use more powerful potions, or use other alchemical items - but hey, this would be so good, it would totally break the game, let's not do this.
... Just give infinite HP to every shield (or more precisely, shield block, has a normal use of the shield, doesn't make it lose its HP - as a strike doesn't damage your sword, even when you're attacking an earth elemental, an iron golem or an adamantine door). No one would notice a difference in term of balance - non-shield users would notice the shield-user has some cool defensive abilities, instead of just laughing each time the shield breaks and each time the character uses his body to protect his shield ("you had your shield raised, you had your reaction ready, why didn't you block the blow? - it's easier to resurrect me than to repair my shield"). You know what? Shield builds being the best defensive builds is what everyone expects - right now, I'd rather play a fighter with a free hand and a bandolier.
If everyone would prefer a reflective shield in such a case, then the problem isn't that shield block is too powerful - the problem is that reflecting shield is too powerful (or the sturdy shield doesn't prevent enough damages). Right now, there are lots and lots of characters who can use a reflecting shield at no cost: any character who without the shield block reaction. If everyone of them uses a reflecting shield (or even worse, a spellguard shield because they don't think the reaction of the reflective shield is worth 17750 gp), this means the reflecting or spellguard shield is too good.
TL; DR: make every shield non-destructible (like every other equipment in the game), nobody would break a sweat.
Captain Morgan, if there were no rules for lying, I think all of your arguments could also be used to argue that it's not necessary to have rules for lying. "Just use Society to pretend you know the host of the party" / "Just use an Arcana check to convince them you knew the specifics of the dragon". It seems like a logical fallacy to me, though I don't know which one.
I do agree that an extra "convince someone of the truth" mechanic is not necessary. But I am looking for clear rules in the current ruleset for the situation, just like we have clear rules for lying.
I think the best we can do is keep coming up with scenarios until we find some sort of pattern.
Let's say the evil twin brother of one of the PCs stole something from a merchant at the market. The merchant saw the evil twin run away, lost him, then found the PC, who looks just like him. The merchant accuses him of being a thief and demands his stolen goods back. The PC says he did not steal anything. Maybe it was his twin brother?
The merchant wouldn't believe him.
... except, of course, if the PC doesn't have any evil twin. In which case, everyone believes him if he succeeds at Deception.
By your “Economy” reasoning no one can attempt any activities unless they remain perfectly still, since Striding is an action. “No one gets to ignore Actions”, remember?
... If only the rules stated it's possible to do an alternation of two action...
Risky, I think you should read the rules before posting. Right now, you look... I'll say "ridiculous" to use a nice word: posting about rules you don't know or understand doesn't make you look clever. And talking about "common sense" or "bad faith" while being proud of your false paradox doesn't either.
Minion rules for animals aren't common sense either (I can buy it for summons), but we apply them because it's the rules, set there to ensure balance over realism.
And, according to common sense, if action economy is so important it has to be enforced over realism, then action economy has to be enforced over realism during encounter mode, exploration mode and downtime.
Would anyone allow a character to perform two downtime activities at the same time ? two exploration activities at the same time ? If not, then a wizard with a familiar shouldn't break a activity economy "because he has a familiar".
According to common sense, if it requires constant supervision during a fight, chances are it requires constant supervision outside of a fight - at least to do anything useful.
Look at a child: during a fight, he requires constant supervision or he'll get killed. According to your "common sense", can he scout without any supervision?
Is Exploration Mode measured in Rounds and Actions? No.
Exploration mode is measured in exploration activities. A character able to perform two exploration activities at once performs more activities than another, and break the action economy (or the activity economy, if you prefer).
Rysky wrote:
You can use things that are Actions in Exploration Mode, that doesn’t mean Exploration Mode is measured in Rounds and Actions. Or do you also scrutinize player’s actions in Exploration and Downtime Mode, going over single move “action” and the like?
Do you allow a character to craft several items at the same time while performing a jog, or do you limit every character to only one downtime activity at a time?
In the latter case, there's a downtime activity economy - and most players use this economy.
Prethen wrote:
Flier only as far as I know....where does it say it requires darkvision?
I mean that a player can retain their stated intent to make the rules look silly isntba rules problem, it's a player problem
He doesn't retract anything, he just follow the rules: he didn't act (because the rules say so - and obviously a lot of people agree in this thread), and the thing he wanted to do 10 minutes ago doesn't engage him now.
This is a very common thing in d&d/pf: a PC falls, the cleric say "I'll heal at my turn", the situation change, at his turn he can't heal the PC, he does something else. The fact he said "I'll heal you at my turn" doesn't consume a spell slot or trigger an AoO or anything: the heal spell never happened. This is the same with the barbarian: since it didn't get to act in the first place, his hostile action never happened. This is the same in example 4 described in the tutorial: since the goblin never get to act in the first place, he didn't give away his position by attacking. When his turn comes, maybe Merisiel used some high-level ability at her turn and the goblin knows he shouldn't attack such a powerful foe - so he stay hidden as in example 1.
and how easy is it on average to guess the right save and have an appropriate spell on hand to make use of it ?
usually it's a 50% guess. It's easy to determine the highest save (big -> fort, smart -> will, small -> ref), but there's no way to determine the smallest one among the remaining two. Eg, it's obvious the highest save of a white dragon is fort, but there's no way to know its smallest save is will.
Depending on your degree of metagame, you may have better results.
It seems a lot of people have issues with using ranged weapons that aren't bombs when it's a pretty viable way to play it.
Well, yeah. People who want to play a bomber alchemist probably do so wanting to use bombs, not slings.
Quote:
There's also the Alchemical Crossbow which adds bomb damage to bolts and can have runes added to it as it's a weapon.
Definitely a cool weapon, but also uncommon so not something you can rely on having at all.
Well, you can't play a fireball wizard at level 1 either. Sometimes you just need a bit of patience and XP.
Could you please show us the rule allowing to trade patience and/or xp for uncommon items?
Tell your GM that your character is looking for a way to acquire those items. It's in the rules, and it won't even cost you xp.
If you play with bad GMs, it's not the game's fault.
Oh. So according to you, PCs should get any item/spell/etc they want - otherwise the GM is a bad GM.
Can you explain the purpose of the rarity system again ?
Spoiler:
According to my reading of the rules, uncommon items may make some stories harder to tell - so tje DM should disallow those items forever if he want to tell those kind of story
Buying a magic sword requires being around someone who is selling a magic sword.
Buying a magic sword requires to be level 4. If the DM denies the level-appropriate magic sword, then the PCs can't handle the level-appropriate monsters, TPK, let's play something else.
Actually, according to the wbl rules, a martial can get a magic sword at level 3 - while it's not possible to craft it at that level.
Paizo folks themselves don't use the bulk rules - eg see the pregen characters.
Every pregen sheet has a line for bulk. It's the first line in the Equipment section.
Yes, I can as well write "4B 7L no encumbrance" or some other random value on my character sheet. But this is not the rule. The rule is to sum up the bulk value given in the equipment chapter, not to chose some lower than the encumbrance threshold - and yet some pregen like Fumbus use the former rule instead of the official rule.
All I know is that it sounds like it's a perfect time to advertise my new line of tinfoil hats! On sale now! Perfect gifts for the other people in your bunker or militia! Ask about bulk rates!
Do they protect against mind reading through ttrpg forums? I'll buy one!
As for why the change: weight based encumbrance has been the norm for 45 years... and encumbrance tracking has widely been entirely ignored. So the Paizo folks have decided to try a new thing and see if it means people will actually use encumbrance tracking rules when they used to not.
Paizo folks themselves don't use the bulk rules - eg see the pregen characters. That maybe the greatest accomplishment of Bulk: even its creator doesn't use it. Maybe they should create a rule there're willing to use themselves instead of something random?
Completely support the idea of dropping the lead up time.
This rule exist for balance reasons; it's one of the rules ensuring crafting is never profitable.
Quote:
Though, I'm also against paying the rest of the item off to finish it after the 4 day timer.
If you can craft 50 arrows in a day then you can craft 50 arrows in a day.
Let's say you can craft 50 arrows per day, using log and arrow heads as raw material. How many arrows can you craft each day using arrow shaft and arrow head? How many arrows can you craft each day using trees and iron ore?
The price of the raw compound is supposed to answer this question: it takes 4 day to construct an arrow using arrow shaft and arrow head as raw material.
Gloom wrote:
Formulas serve as a realistic way for GMs to limit access to crafting items for both NPCs and Players. It also gives them something else that they can award players without giving them a direct source of power.
... this is the exact goal of the recipe mechanic in video games. And video game invented this mechanics long before ttrpg.
This is a very efficient mechanic in the context of video game, but it isn't realistic in any way: does anyone seriously think an awesome chef is awesome because he looted the best recipe? Does anyone seriously think looting a Stradivarius blueprint will allow a violinmaker to craft Stradivarius? This is not how the word works. The idea the blueprint "is a way to limit access to crafting items" doesn't comes from the real world, it comes from video games.
making it obvious you are not actually looking for a debate but just to push your own biased agenda.
One person makes a complain, and he's instantly accused of pushing an hidden agenda - as if he w&s part of a big illuminati conspiracy. Because obviously Pathfinder is so important, several secret society are fighting to determine its destiny.
This is why this community is toxic - and why this forum is awesome. Discussing with people believing in those kind of conspiracy is awesome.
You could use Flame Barrier to save the fighter’s life for a round so he can finish the fight. Or rebuke death to get him and the rogue both back into it.
Awesome. So the hail mary stuff works only if you multiclass to get some actual focus powers.
No need to multiclass--you can get rebuke death or flame barrier from Domain Fluency at level 12.
Awesome; so that's a level 1 ability that is useful during less than half of a campaign. And only if you take the appropriate feat.
HyperMissingno wrote:
To make things clear I was talking about the hail mary thing as if the oracle had an additional explosion when they went down, the focus spells are not and should not be the hail mary.
A divine class whose signature ability is an explosive belt... No, thanks.
The current party is composed of a bard (stays out of combat to buff), melee champion of Cayden Cailen, melee cleric of Gorum (specced into Medicine for Battle Medicine in-combat healing and out of combat treatment), and a Wildshape Druid. The current party level is 2 and we are playing The Fall of Plaguestone module.
3 casters and 1 martial, of course you're having hard time!
Try with this party composition: champion, fighter/bard, fighter/cleric, fighter/druid.
Note: when people want to show casters are balanced with martial, they cite level 4+ spells (and usually level 6+ uncommon spells). you can allow the PC to reroll as casters at level 10 - but no one should play a caster before level 10. The more caster you have at low level, the harder the game is.
It's really funny to see people discussing about the hail Mary stuff as if it was an actual thing.
OK, so let's assume you're a battle oracle. Do you want to fall unconscious to give a +2 init to everyone else, because you entered fight at max curse for some reason and you're so useless as a caster, you think a +2 init to everyone else will be more useful than your whole presence during the fight? Or maybe you prefer to get a +2 to a save, and whatever the result is you fall unconscious anyway? Or you want to get a new fighter feat, and fall unconscious before you can use it?
You're a life oracle, do you want to remove a condition on an ally for one hour, so your party has to handle you instead of your ally (and one hour latter they have to handle both)? Or maybe you want to cast a life link that ends immediately? Or you think you'll be more useful as a literal object of healing, because an ally is dying and you don't have any more heal but he will have the time to move close to you and interact with you for 15 hp - and those 15 hp will save the day? Note: 15hp is at level 6, but at higher level it's even worse - eg at 13th it's 25 hp.
This hail mary stuff doesn't exist because the revelations effects are lame, and none of them can save any situation. The effects aren't "you shout 'you shall not pass' and your enemy falls into a bottomless pit - even if he can fly", the effects are more like "if an ally spend actions to interact with your body he gains 15 hp lol" - and that's when the effect isn't negated by your unconsciousness.
Magic-Users still have a lot of paradigm-shifting spells (trap a dead person's soul or travel to another plane), but a lot of the incapacitation spells only removes someone from an encounter on a critical failure. Magic is much less effective as a means of combat, but is very useful in solving problems that can't be solved by dealing damage.
Those are uncommon spell - ie non-existing spells. Those spells exist only if the author of the AP include them - as a sword of soul binding or an armor of plane shift exist only if the author of the AP include them.
They aren't non-existing spells, access is determined by the GM not the Author of an AP.
As is the existence of a sword of soul binding or an armor of plane shift.
Magic-Users still have a lot of paradigm-shifting spells (trap a dead person's soul or travel to another plane), but a lot of the incapacitation spells only removes someone from an encounter on a critical failure. Magic is much less effective as a means of combat, but is very useful in solving problems that can't be solved by dealing damage.
Those are uncommon spell - ie non-existing spells. Those spells exist only if the author of the AP include them - as a sword of soul binding or an armor of plane shift exist only if the author of the AP include them.
Now, let's look at the actual rules about formula book (here)
actual rules wrote:
Formula Book: A formula book holds the formulas necessary to make items other than common equipment; alchemists typically get one for free. Each formula book can hold the formulas for up to 100 different items. Formulas can also appear on parchment sheets, tablets, and almost any other medium; there’s no need for you to copy them into a specific book as long as you can keep them on hand to reference them.
what's described here is a "schematic": a formula on a parchment sheet. The end. [micro drop]
If you search for the term schematic on Archive of Nethys, it shows up only twice, both under the same rule heading, formulas.
[...]
It is never a schematic in your formula book.
OK, so you invent a whole argument from the fact the word "schematic" is used twice, without any game definition, probably to avoid some repetition, in the 1000 pages of rules?
That's quite amazing.
Quote:
Although I admit that is a very literal reading of the rule.
You aren't making a "very literal reading", you're just making an absurd reading to avoid admitting you're wrong.
But OK, I can work under your assumption. Let's assume I have 90 gp (the party should get that amount before level 3).
1/ I buy 40 formula books (40 gp)
2/ I buy a random level 10 schematic (which is not a formula at all).
3/ I spend 40 hours (5 days) to copy the formula in my formula books.
4/ I sell each formula book 10 GP (total 400 gp, 310 gp of benefit. If I had spend those 5 day to find and practice a level 20 legendary job and rolled a critical success, I'd have earned 300 gp).
I'm not selling schematic, but I don't care: anyone can use my book as a schematic. And my book costs five time less. A merchant can buy my books, and then re-sell them at 20 gp, it's still less than half the prics of the schematic. For an item that is, for all intend and purpose, identical to the schematic - there's nothing you can do with the schematic and not with the book.
If it doesn't work, it means your whole economy doesn't make any sense at all: people prefer to spend 50 gp for something they can get for 10. This is not how economy works. You may ask to anyone, everywhere : "do you prefer to pay 50 bucks or 10 bucks for the same merchandise ?", everyone will answer "10 bucks".
Hiruma Kai wrote:
Gaterie wrote:
OK, so crafting a schematic (the item) require a formula for the schematic?
I don't believe so. It says:
Core Rule Book, page 293 wrote:
If you have a formula, you can Craft a copy of it using the Crafting skill.
It doesn't say you need a schematic of the formula. It says you just need the formula to create a copy. I think specific rule trumps general rule in this case.
I'm reading the prior sentence:
Core Rule Book, page 293 wrote:
You can copy a formula into your formula book in 1 hour, either from a schematic or directly from someone else’s formula book.
You can't have it both way: either you craft schematic using the rules of craft, either you craft a schematic using the rule to copy formula.
You're explaining the schematic use the time and cost from the crafting rules, but it doesn't require a formula because the copying rule doesn't require a formula, and none of this makes sense. If you use the crafting rules, then you need a formula of the schematic (and people are selling schematic of schematic to the schematic crafter, which require formula of schematic of schematic obtained from schematic of schematic of schematic...). If you use the copying rule, then it takes 1 hour, no raw material, and no formula of the schematic.
Subsidiary question: what level is a schematic ? If every schematic aren't level 1, how comes my level 1 character can copy a level 20 formula but a level 10 crafter can't create the corresponding schematic?
Crafting a schematic (the item) requires the use of the crafting skill and associated rules. I.e. 4 days preparation, half raw materials, roll dice to see how many gp progress you make per day. It makes exactly as much gold as any other craft activity. So I don't see why schematics can't be sold back. Its just like selling a scroll back after using it to learn a spell to write in your spellbook.
OK, so crafting a schematic (the item) require a formula for the schematic? Since it's the same rule as crafting. So people are selling formulas of schematics? and other people are selling formula of schematics of schematics, and other people are selling formula of schematics of schematics of schematics... [insert an inception blow here]
You shouldn't invent your own house rule, because they don't make any sense. When you talk about a rule, you should look in the book if it exists.
Copying a schematic into your formula book takes 1 hour. At which point it is a schematic. You can show your book to another crafter, and he can copy the formula in his own book (this is explained in the rule about price of formula: you can either buy the formula, either ask a crafter to copy from his book, and it costs the same). You can tear the page out, and anyone can still copy the formula in his own formula book. For all intend and purpose, this page is a formula. Copying a formula takes 1 hour and no material, because that's what's written in the rules, and the copy can be used to create the object or can be copyed as a formula because that's what's written in the book.
Unfortunately for you, your opinion is in the minority.
More precisely, his opinion is in the minority among the people who are still playing PF2.
Pramxnim wrote:
A well-placed Phantasmal Killer, Tempest Surge or Dominate can and will create a massive advantage vs. a single foe (and those are usually the hardest fights) for a short time, giving the rest of the party a chance to seize victory while their defenses are down (from Frightened or Clumsy or Stunned).
lol.
"We try to play, but at level 5 our casters are still useless, i think we'll play something else.
- Look at this level 6 uncommon spell : it's very useful."
If you copy the formulas into a formula book, which is light weight, you can have 100 formulas for a single Light bulk. Page 290 for the book, page 293 for copying into it in 1 hour. At that point, you don't need the individual light bulk schematic lying around and I recommend selling it back for half price. That will reduce your formula acquisition costs by half, and is well worth it.
I'm quite confident PCs can't sell formula.
... Let's assume they can : copying a formula cost 1 hour and no material. A Level 1 formula cost 1 gp, if the PCs can sell it at half price, they gain 0.5 gp per hour, so 4 gp per 8 hour of work - this is as much as a level 9 expert job.
And that's only using level 1 formulas - according to the rule, a level 1 character can copy level 20 formulas.
I have no idea how the formula market works. I have no idea why level 1 formula cost that much (seriously, 1 gp for the formula of a chair ? Who can pay that much ?). I have no idea how rarity works (since copying a formula costs nothing, every formula should be common). But I'm sure of 1 thing : if you allow PC to sell formula, then they get [almost] infinite money just by selling formulas instead of items.
For every intent or purpose, the formula market lives in another abstract world with almost no connection with Golarion; the only possible interaction between this world and Golarion is "a PC buy a formula".
Crafting is not a monetary advantage. If it was it would be seen as required. If the item is available to buy and you can find work in town at the same item level you're always better off just buying it outright. But those are two assumptions and from them we can see where crafting is good.
1. As you get higher in level, buying magic items becomes more difficult since there simply aren't many places in the setting to buy high level items and not every campaign takes place in those locations. Crafting means you can make the items you want if you can't find them, provided you have the formula.
2. When you are taking downtime in a backwater town they won't have high level jobs for you. Therefore the Earn an Income task will not make much money. When you craft, you are effectively using Earn an Income when you reduce the item cost, but using your level regardless of location.
Is it universally good? No. Mostly it's good at higher levels, and in certain campaigns which limit access to items.
3/ craft is limited by your level ; earn income and buy stuff aren't. In other words, a level 10 character can buy a level 11 item and practice a level 11 job, but you can't craft a level 11 item.
need the formula for the specific item I'm crafting (good luck finding rules on how this works!)
I think it's written somewhere that formula for common items are common. And i think the equipment chapter contains the price of formula (depending on their level.
So if you want item A of level N, you can :
1/ wait until you're level N, buy the formula, pay the price of the item, and wait 4 days. And then you get the item.
2/ Pay the price of the item and go shopping.
... But people explained to me the case 1/ is awesome because there isn't any shop in the wilderness - but there are workshop and you can instantly transform your gp into raw materials.
Such a common situation. In 30 years of RPG, I have seen this situation a grand total of 0 times. And I expect this number to stay the same during the next 60 years.
... Second Edition has only been out three months...
A similar situation may happen in many other games. A situation where my level 1 squishy caster is in melee range of a very specific kind of martial character of high level with a very specific ability and this ability is activated and my character knows it somehow and he knows the martial doesn't have any other very specific ability and my character must sustain another ability and stay in melee range.
This can happen in any game if you think about it.
Rysky wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Henro wrote:
A multitudefew high-level monsters have attacks of opportunity and are also capable of hitting on concentrate actions, and cackling does allow you to sustain and avoid taking a hit in those circumstances. Not saying the feature is in a good spot, but your hyperbole is entirelyslightly unwarranted.
Edit: edited because I was incorrect.
And we’re getting a whole new Bestiary in a few months as well.
By why would you expect the percentage of monsters with AoO triggered by concentrate actions would increase? If anything, I would expect it to decrease since additional monsters tend to have more niche abilities than earlier monsters as the lifespan of games stretches on and AoO is kinda boilerplate.
Percentage no. Actual numbers yes.
The actual number of monsters/NPC with a reaction triggered by sonic or auditory ability will increase as well.
How do you recognize a creature with a special-snowfake-AoO triggered by concentration from a creature with a super-special-snowflake-AoO trigered by auditory effects?
does anyone know what cackle do ? It looks like it removes the "concentration" tag from the "sustain a spell" action but it retains the only disadvantage of this tag, while adding two other tags with their own disadvantages. I get this ability for free, and yet it feels like a punishment. Why does this ability exist?
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity... is a punishment?
lol. You almost killed me.
You're right, the ability can be very useful if I'm in melee range of a level 10+ fighter with the disruptive stance feat and with the stance activated and I recognize the stance with my witch who doesn't have any knowledge about stances and at the same time I know for sure this fighter doesn't have any ability granting a reaction against sonic or auditory effects and the most urgent thing I have to do is to sustain a spell instead of moving away from the fighter (who's in melee range of my squishy witch, but who cares ?).
Such a common situation. In 30 years of RPG, I have seen this situation a grand total of 0 times. And I expect this number to stay the same during the next 60 years.
Maybe someone can create a more common situation where the ability does something ? Something happening once every 20 years of play maybe ?
You're totally right. This is an awesome strategy. An awesome strategy entirely predicated on having a caster to buff the Fighter. At least, if you want to do it regularly.
Nobody is saying Fighters aren't good. Just that there are things casters do better...like buffing, for example.
It takes a few feat for anyone to be a good buffer.
And the most efficient buff is called "flanking" and is delivered by martial characters.
However, if he restricts the availablity of higher-level earn income tasks (I can't find the quote right now, but seem to recall a limit based on the settlement's level, e.g.), crafting a level 10 item as a level 10 character can be very much worth it compared to doing a level 5 earn income task (because in the small village you're at that's the best work to be had...) instead using the same amount of time..
Page 504:
"The highest-level task available is usually the same as the
level of the settlement where the character is located. If
you don’t know the settlement’s level, it’s usually 0–1 for a
village, 2–4 for a town, or 5–7 for a city. A PC might need
to travel to a metropolis or capital to find tasks of levels
8-10, and to the largest cities in the world or another plane
to routinely find tasks beyond that."
In other words, any level 1-10 character can chose any level 1-10 task if he lives in a metropolis.
And let's be serious: reaching a metropolis isn't a great accomplishment. It's, you know, the perfect exemple of a low-level task: use secured road to attain a secured area. This is why, you know, there are so many low-level people in the metropolis: because it's easy to reach and well-secured.
Quote:
The Society rule of "level-2" seems like a reasonable compromise.
No. Any character should be able to chose any level 1-10 task.
However, if he restricts the availablity of higher-level earn income tasks (I can't find the quote right now, but seem to recall a limit based on the settlement's level, e.g.), crafting a level 10 item as a level 10 character can be very much worth it compared to doing a level 5 earn income task (because in the small village you're at that's the best work to be had...) instead using the same amount of time..
In the other hand, the level 10 character can do a level 15 task (if the settlement is large enough), while a level 10 crafter is limited to level 10 objects.
Quote:
Similarly, Society play lets you earn income at your level-2, but craft at your level in general.
O_O
This doesn't make any sense since you can do non-craft task of higher level: if those tasks exist (and those tasks exist since a level+3 character at the same location can chose a level+1 task), then you can take them.
So yeah, if you houserule the game is a nonsensical way, craft is useful. In the actual rule from the actual book, it doesn't.
When Fighters can cast Invisibility or Teleportation or some other strong utility spell without any significant investment towards being able to do so, I'll concede this edition being thrown to the Martials.
Teleportation is uncommon. ie the normal rule is: the wizard can't cast it because he can't get it.
This isn't an edition where wizard can do awesome stuff while fighter can only hit stuff 5 feet away, this is an edition where no one can do anything special except when the DM grants a special permission. Once DM's special permissions are involved, I can guaranty my fighter can access teleport and plane shift as well as anyone else - to write some BG isn't a problem.
But you're right, invisibility is a thing. Can we list all special thing a normal wizard can do in pf2?
Your actions are worth less far than the big boss's actions. If you're facing a solo threat, spending 2 actions to make them take 1 less actions is a good deal.
And now you have to factor your chances of doing nothing. To cast Dominate on a boss is a very efficient way to lose your action for no effect.
Last post you were talking about how slow was "worse than useless" because you were trading 2 actions for 1 of theirs on the first round it was active. My counterpoint was pertaining to that.
Casting dominate on a boss doesn't seem like a good idea since it has the incapacitation tag, I agree.
The boss has some chance of crit success the save - on top of his 50% success chance; especially if Will isn't his weakest save.
In the other hand, any fighter can trip the monster - 1 action vs 1 action. He has to succeed (while the wizard only requires a succeeded save). In the other hand, the fighter may get a +2 bonus (flank), +item bonus (trip trait and magic weapon), and other buffs/no-save-debuffs. What are the buffs one can apply to spell DC, what are the no-save-debuffs (like flank) one can apply to saves ?
Your actions are worth less far than the big boss's actions. If you're facing a solo threat, spending 2 actions to make them take 1 less actions is a good deal.
And now you have to factor your chances of doing nothing. To cast Dominate on a boss is a very efficient way to lose your action for no effect.
That's a 95% chance of Slowed without the Incapacitate tag at level 3, and Common. If you fail the Save, it's Slowed for a full minute. That's so much better than Fighter debuffs it's not even funny. As a 6th level spell, it can effect up to 10 targets. That's just silly good.
That's wrong and you know it. That's pure theorycrafting.
You would be right if fights were usually 10-rounds-long - but it's not the case and you know it.
In a non-infinite-duration fight, assuming the creature fails the save, after one round it's worse than useless (you lose 2 actions, the creature loses 1), after two round it's useless (you and the creature lose 2 actions), it become slightly useful at round 3 (depending on how much you value "pay 2 actions right now - and a slot etc - so that the enemy will pay more action in the course of 3 rounds).
Now, you have to factor the chance the creature succeed its save.
And, more importantly, factor the fact the third action is the least useful action in a round (due to MAP, non-repeatable action, two-actions activities like spell, etc : most creature do the same damages with 2 or 3 actions). Maybe slow is useful if it's coupled with a tripping fighter - costing two action every round to the enemy - , and maybe it is the key to achieve a three-action lock. But all by itself, slow is worthless.
And once again, concerning level 6 spell, I'll think about a reroll when I'll play a campaign reaching level 15, lol.
Wizards look boring when theorycrafting, I suspect actual play may be very different.
I feel like you have that exactly backwards.
The theorycrafting hypes up the wizard. More high level spell slots. Always targeting someone's weakest save. The biggest spell list... but these all ignore the limitations on the wizard's own casting mechanics.
Just like in PF1, Wizard theorcrafting always seems to fixate on a hypothetical wizard who always seems to have just the right option ready and can add spells to their spellbook at will. Just like in PF1, the gulf between Schrodinger's wizard and the actual playable wizard is huge because whether or not you have the right spells prepared or whether or not you learn anything at all beyond the spells you get for leveling up is entirely campaign dependent and not at all reliable.
[...]
I agree with this, and i'll add:
In PF1, DC could be high enough, even when targeting a high save their was a good probability to land the spell.
In PF1 there were powerful low level spells (color spry, glitterdust...).
In PF1, skills did nothing and you needed magic to do anything unrealistic.
In PF1, there wasn't a rarity gate in front of utility spells.
In PF1, action economy favoured casters (no full-attack during surprise round, ability to cast a spell and move, etc)
in PF1, maybe the casters were OP (... Or not: I think 2/3 casters were the right balance point. i guess this is the reason those classes were removed ?).
Since the casters are always better in theorycrafting than actual play (due to preparation mechanic), they were invincible in theorycrafting and strong in actual play. In PF2, since every single way they were better than martial has been removed, they are weaker in every field - making them useless. They are "meh OK" in theorycrafting and far weaker in actual play - to the point people think exchanging actions on a 2-for-1 basis is awesome for casters.
Martials are better at dealing damages and debuffing enemies. Why would I play a caster if my goal is to deal damages or debuff enemies?
So no, I don't limit arguments to utility spells. But before we talk about damages or debuffs, you'll have to convince me a caster may deal more damages or better debuff than a fighters.
Can Fighters inflict the Slowed condition or worse things with what's usually a 95% chance of success? Because Dominate can, and the Slowed condition is utterly brutal, even ignoring the chance of mind controlling the foe into attacking their own allies.
Dominate is uncommon. ie you can't get it in an AP, except if the author included it.
Dominate has the "incapacitate" tag. ie only the useless mooks have 95% chance of being at least slowed.
Dominate is level 6, ie it's not possible to have it during most of the game. Let's be serious: if a class becomes useful at level 11 and is useless before, then no one will play it at level 1-10. People will play a fighter at 1-10, and reroll for a wizard at level 11. Non-masochist players can accept 2 or 3 levels of uselessness, not 10.
Dominate costs 2 action. Ie the wizard loses two action to remove 1 action from the opponent. It's useful because the wizard's action are worthless - it's a good deal to remove 2 actions of the wizard in exchange of the last attack of a monster. In the other hand, for a fighter, trip exchange actions on a 1-vs-1 basis - because the fighter's actions are worth more.
Look, i'm done, I did't see the usefulness of full-casters and I still don't see it now; if no one can explain it until now, I don't think anyone will be able in the next posts. I won't answer other people to explain why no-one memorize hideous laughter and why most of the spells indicated in this thread are useless. I concede, it's maybe a good idea to reroll your fighter at level 15 and play a wizard instead - I'll think about it in the next time we'll reach level 15, lol.
Casters are better at dealing damage to multiple enemies and destroying cannon fodder.
Awesome.
In the other hand, the edition is fitted to make cannon fodders negligible and ignorable.
Quote:
if the caster knows which is the worst save of the creature/npc at issue, they will do better than a martial.
Hence:
1/ if the full-casters metagame (there is no way to know Fort is the strongest save of a zombi but the weakest save of a lich - both monster look exactly the same)
2/ if the full-casters prepare spells attacking every save (the last "awesome" wizard build I saw was targeting Ref only - but he was awesome according to pro-wizard nonetheless)
3/ If the full-casters are wizards (how many Fort/Ref spell does a bard get? how many Ref blast does a cleric get?).
Then the full-casters are awesome against the monsters no one cares about.
This is a very complicated way of writing "full-casters are useless", but in the end I agree with you.
"Even if you aren’t Searching, you get a check to find traps
that normally require you to be Searching."
Also, do you know that you can: Avoid Notice, go ahead, see if there are enemies, go back if you find them, if a room is clear from enemies, your group comes with you, you change to Search, see if there are traps, if not, you again go to Avoid Notice and scout ahead again.
Do I really need to explain simple details like that?
lol
There are 12 classes, one of those classes is rogue. A standard game party contains 4 PC. So obviously, every party has a rogue with trapfinder - the same way every caster is a generalist wizard with Bond conservation.
Fun fact: most party don't have a rogue.
Fun fact: many rogues don't have trapfinder.
Quote:
Also, do you know that you can: Avoid Notice, go ahead, see if there are enemies, go back if you find them, if a room is clear from enemies, your group comes with you, you change to Search, see if there are traps, if not, you again go to Avoid Notice and scout ahead again.
Do I really need to explain simple details like that?
1/ you go ahead.
2/ you go back.
3/ you search for traps on the path you already took twice.
It makes perfect sense if you don't think about it!
Quote:
All the streams from Paizo developers playing include descriptions for monsters and their actions, and all of them can be used in-game for characters to take their choices of actions.
And again, what part of the description of a bear makes you think they have a better Willpower than Reflex? What part of the description of a lich makes it different from a zombi? Fort is the strongest save of zombis and the weakest save for a lich - and yet, they look exactly the same!
And anyway, who cares? In the Mellored's post which is, according to you, "a good example of what [you were] talking about", the wizard has only Ref spells memorized. Who cares if he knows a lich's weakness if fort, since he can't target Fort?
Quote:
I need to make arguments for each one of the classes now? Do some work yourself please?
lol.
Aren't you the one who want to get paid for a biased article about "casters vs martial" (while it's actually about "wizards vs martial with no class") ?
