Party Disagreement and Personal Dilemma


Advice


~Before I say anything else, I am new to Pathfinder, but I've been playing D&D for some time now. I am familiar with how spells work, how combat works, dice rolling, sunder, trip, stun, wish spells (and why not to wish), etc.~

Here's the situation. I've played cleric in every MMORPG, RPG, board game, and RP forum. I like playing clerics because of what they can do. They can summon, buff, holy smite, debuff, and go in with a giant hammer of their deity that has a big "YOU JUST GOT PWNED!" decal on the side of it. I like knowing I'm needed. It's what I do for a living anyways (no, seriously, I work at a hospital.) Although, for the past five years that I've been playing with my friends, I've been relied on to heal them, and there's SO MUCH MORE TO A CLERIC THAN BEING A BAND-AID!

So, here is where I come to you guys. I need help building the most powerful none-healer cleric I possibly can, so that I can prove to my friends that we don't absolutely have to have a designated healer every time we go into battle. I have access to all books, except 3rd party script. My group worships Sarenrae, although, I don't have to stick to her if I don't want to (I don't want to. I hate worshiping deities. They pinhole me into things I don't want to do. My last cleric worshiped two gods and was stuck as an emissary between two faiths. Do you know how much that sucked? A lot.)

My roll for stats are as follows.

10
10
13
14
15
18

The character will be starting level 3.
The DM is fantastic at adjusting the game on the fly to make the game more fitting what the player wants. For example, my last character was an apprentice of smithing, so, the DM created an entire sub-quest to go along with what I wanted for my character. I gathered mithral, created weapons to defend against invading armies, so on and so forth. It was awesome.
The character can be any race as long as they can get along with humans.
The character has to be good aligned.
The group as of late hasn't been fighting purely one type of enemy. We've fought everything from trolls to undead, to spiders, to ankegs. It's been interesting to say the least.

Any ideas, tips, concepts, productive comments will be graciously received and welcomed. Thank you in advance.


First off, stop letting people determine what your character does. Seriously.

Next. Do you want no healing or minimum healing? You could worshi a neutral deity and choose to channel negative energy. That might be fun.


Yeah, I know. It sucks, though, when 4 out of 5 people in the group fall because they don't know how to retreat or use basic battle tactics. Sure, we killed a werewolf, but that was after it killed half our group, and the dwarf had the brilliant idea of grappling it so I could kill them both with fireballs.

Negative Channeling sounds interesting. I can't go necro, though. DM's rules. And minimum healing.


Are those stats placable or fixed in order. Because, otherwise you might as well nickname your character medic, because it's not going to be much for fighting or casting.


They can be placed wherever may wish to be placed.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You can't teach an old dog new tricks. You've been their healer for YEARS, you say?

Yeah, this will end badly. The moment someone goes down, they will blame you, rather than take responsibility for their own stupidity and lack of tactics.

Good luck.


there is a version of battle cleric called 'the bad-touch cleric' that focuses on debuffing and battlefield control. maybe thats you new schtick. a cleric of erastil can be a decent archer/ buffer. the guides can help.


Cleric's have some great buffing spells. Buff up the fighter-types and let them go to town. Better yet, buff yourself, get an awesome favored weapon (Shelyn has a Glaive, for instance), and some good STR, and start smashing stuff.

The best thing to do is let everyone know before-hand, "Hey, I'll heal you when the chips are really down, but I don't heal stupid. Be smart when you fight so we take less damage and can hurt things more often and more efficiently". A cleric of Torag is great for this - he's all about battle, but not mindlessly. Iomedae is similar, though she's a little too "honor above all" for my taste.

One thing you could do it not play a cleric. Then no one can complain when you don't heal them. A paladin can heal, for instance, so you still get the shtick, but it's so limited, no one can consider you a full healer.

If they protest you not being a cleric (assuming these guys are your friends), and insist on it, you could ask them if what you want is important to them or not. Though that's getting pretty serious over a game.

Best of luck.

Shadow Lodge

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Next. Do you want no healing or minimum healing? You could worshi a neutral deity and choose to channel negative energy. That might be fun.

No you can't. The character has to be good-aligned and all good-aligned clerics channel positive energy, even if the deity is neutral. The only clerics that get to choose are neutral clerics of neutral deities.

Do you have any more specific role you hope to fill? I'm assuming since you don't want to heal you'd like to stay away from the support caster role in general, but that still leaves you the melee damage build, the archer cleric, and the offensive caster "bad touch cleric." And for all of these I'd recommend starting with a look at this guide, description of types here.

So does your group need tanking, ranged support, or battle control?


We've got a Fighter (Charger), Magus, Ranger (Ranged), and Ranger (Melee). That leaves Battle Control. Thanks for the guide links. I think I can figure my way from here. Thanks guys.


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Battle Cleric of Gorum. 18 str, 15 wis, 14 con, 13 dex, 10 int & chr. Be a human to make up for lack of skill points. Still choose HP every level. You can be CG to keep the good requirement. Take offensive domains for self and team buffs. Keep your spell list stocked with combat buffs. Tell your party that you heal by "Killing the enemy in glorious battle with better planning, better buffs and better tactics than your foes."

Before you get to battle however, have arm wrestling events with every party member you have. Constantly try to test everyone you meet and your party members in other contests of strength and skill as well. Tell your teamates that Gorum demands that they "Prove themselves worthy of healing by showing their couarge in combat before you can heal them." Etc. Etc.


I've played my fair share of clerics myself, having a lot of fun with my current Cleric of Sarenrae.

It's not the most powerful build ev-ar, but his healing is limited to a primarily after-combat role and just went for a beat-down cleric.  

18 str, 15 con, 10 dex, 10 int 13 wis, 14 cha is my reccomendation. Use a scimitar in both hands and power attack. Buff yourself with divine favor or bulls strength when you can.

You really dont need more than a 13 wis to start. a +6 wis headband can bump it all the way up to 19, for your 9th level spells if you get that far.

Personally I have a thing for channel smite. I just really love making undead cry for their mother. So much. Yes I know its a wasted feat against anything else. I still take it. Because it's really fun. As a rule, undead can be some disgustingly hard monsters to fight once you get past your basic skeleton and zombies, having a cleric that can bring the pain against them feels SO good, and makes them a lot less deadly.

And It's those moments when bring the holy wrath on a Lich or a Vampire when everyone at the table stops for a second and goes "woah... go cleric." I just love it.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I also like playing clerics. They are such a versatile class.

Here is a character i have had allot of fun with while playing in PFS.

Lawful Neutral cleric of Asmodeus

Spoiler:

9th level

Name: Iago Isildur

Partner in the Infernal Law firm Duwee Cheatum & How

Ability scores
Str 9 11
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 12 14
Wis 14 18
Cha 18 20

Domains
Fire
Fire bolt

Trickery
Copy cat

Channel Negative energy 6d6, 10 times a day DC 22 will save.

Traits

Sacred Conduit
Master of Pentacles

Feats

selective channel, extra channel, command undead, improved channel, quick channel, persistant spell.

Skills
Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Knowledge Planes +14, Knowledge religeon +12, Profession: Barrister: +14, Sense Motive +15

Spells typically memorized
5th level
Flame strike, Fireball persistant
4th level
Restoration, Confusion, Hold person (persistant) Terrible remorse
3td level
Prayer, Invisibility purge, dispel magic, Fire ball, Daylight
2nd
restoration lesser, summon monster 2, Invisibility, Hold person, Cure Moderate wounds x2
1st level
Bless x3, burning hands, cure light wounds x2

my character insists on drawing up a contract with each other character in the party. They agree to do their best to keep harm from befalling the cleric, and he will do what he can to heal them. noting in sub section paragraph C....Healing will be preformed by the Infernal Healing spell from a wand.....

One of my more amusing moments with this character was when the party wanted to kill some prisioners who were thieves. The paladin protested that they should be brought to the proper authorities and turned over to them. Much to his suprise, My character agreed with him. After the thieves were turned over, my character patted the paladin on the shoulder " see it wasn't that bad...we can agree on some things......and even work together".


I make sure up front at a new PFS table, that people know that, my character is a cleric of asmodeus, a negative energy channeler, and not a healer.

I have also had fun playing clerics of Sarenrae, and Pharasma. Each has their own flavor.

I hope this helps


awp832 wrote:
You really dont need more than a 13 wis to start. a +6 wis headband can bump it all the way up to 19, for your 9th level spells if you get that far.

It may just be the old school paranoid former first edition player talking here, but what happens when the headband gets stolen? Or targeted by a dispel magic? Or an Anti magic field?

Don't get me wrong here, I found the channel smite feat long after I had made my own decision to sideline chr on my character. (Sigh) Switching dex for chr is a solid choice, but I have a hard time giving up good physical stats in a needed area (Wis) for being forced to rely on an item to let me cast my high level spells.

That's all off topic, but what is on topic is that there are plenty of creative ways to avoid being the party's band aid. The reach cleric would fit the battlefield control slot nicely I would think.


Missed the "must be good" part. What a ridiculous requirement. 80% of my characters are good without a campaign requirement. I don't know exactly how everyone else's campaign works, but good characters do not only commit good acts - there is a lot of grey area too. And neutral characters are perfectly capable of being "good", particularly in a good party.

Dark Archive

The concept of wanting to play a cleric, but not liking worshiping gods baffles me.


Really? Actually zero comprehension of liking the mechanics of the cleric class, but not the fluff, or preferring the philosophical clerics? Or liking clerics but not liking the DM straitjacketing you into doing whatever some higher level cleric (or bureaucrat) says? Okay.

As for 13 starting wis, if you pump it every 4 levels, you'll be able to cast at least up to 7th level spells in an anti-magic field by the time you get slots for 9ths. Err, no you won't, but you can imagine what I mean. I feel like 14 wis would be better, but there's nothing wrong with betting against a campaign lasting past level 12 or so. It's not like you need your DCs to be high.


If you want only minimum healing you could build a dwarven cleric with the dwarf archetype (forgemaster?). They don't get channel energy so it's one thing less to worry about when it comes to healing.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder clerics no longer have heavy armor proficientcy. I feel this was a substantial blow to their effectiveness in the front line. Now they can be hit almost, if not as easy as everyone else.Not much staying power anymore.

After many years of playing several clerics in Living Grayhawk under 3.5, I have come to believe that clerics have to take a martial two handed weapon and have at least an 18 strength to matter in melee. Swinging a d8 weapon with a 16 strength is not going to cut it, it is negligible. Exotic weapon proficientcy for a bastard sword still does not cut it. Even dwarves with weapon familiarity are poor If useing that dwarven waraxe with one hand and only 16 strength. Only stuff like specialization, weapon group bonus or rage can maybe lessen that weakness, but still does not vindicate such a dwarven fighter or barbarian. Their damage output is so slow, they are not a credible threat and a GM should ignore them and kill the other softer PCs, making the encounter a PC group loss. This is even more so for a 3/4 BAB class, you need a high strength just to hit with a mere 3/4 BAB. No rage, specialization, weapon group bonus to damage also magnifies the necessity of high strength. Rogues(anyone with sneak attack) or Magi who use class features to deliver damage are exceptions, monks who focus on grappling shut down casters but are otherwise a poor choice of character unless for role playing reasons or is played by someone who has the humility to enjoy making negligible contributions while enjoying other people's ride in exchange for having all three saves good but realizing they will still be easy to get killed off by regular attacks.

Consider Getting the subdomains of:
Ferocity - strength
Growth - plant
Rage - destruction
Resolve - strength
Resurrection - healing

For defense, consider the trickery domain.

Rember that buffing as a standard action takes away a valuable resource of that standard action itself, very costly.

Please, come back to the thread and tell us what your findings are.


Dwarven Longhammer. Its a Greatsword with reach. Learn it. Love it. Swing it.

Scarab Sages

Channel Smite and Guided hand can be useful for being very dangerous in melee while still being a good caster.

Shadow Lodge

Imbicatus wrote:
Channel Smite and Guided hand can be useful for being very dangerous in melee while still being a good caster.

I could see some very good things happening with a Bad Touch cleric of Irori with these feats. And since the OP is starting at level 3 he can easily get both feats to start.

Umbranus wrote:
If you want only minimum healing you could build a dwarven cleric with the dwarf archetype (forgemaster?). They don't get channel energy so it's one thing less to worry about when it comes to healing.

I don't know, I'd worry that you'd be pressured to spend more of your spell slots on healing if you couldn't channel.

The Exchange

If your goal is to "prove to your friends" that you don't "have to have a designated healer," choosing to play a cleric at all seems to me an odd way to go about it. I'm not deriding your love of the class and I entirely approve of the notion that players who have come to rely on instant healing as a crutch might enjoy a more resource-conserving, tactically minded campaign (after some of the initial consternation one can expect from anybody who's suddenly put on a diet). But running a cleric and then saying "Sorry, this cleric doesn't heal people" is going to come off as... well, passive-aggressive. You have your reasons and they're valid, but you should put some thought into how to express your reasons to your gaming buddies.

Scarab Sages

Weirdo wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Channel Smite and Guided hand can be useful for being very dangerous in melee while still being a good caster.
I could see some very good things happening with a Bad Touch cleric of Irori with these feats. And since the OP is starting at level 3 he can easily get both feats to start.

It can also let you go Simon Belmont on undead with a Positive energy cleric of Calistria. Of course, you would also need to fit in the entire Whip Mastery line to make full use of it.

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