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BendKing wrote:

Greetings!

I've been working on a houserule doc for the last few months which attempts to balance the different classes and options of the game,
...
Feedback is welcome, though I would highly prefer feedback on the changes themselves, and not whether they necessary or not, since the point of this thread is not to argue class balance :)

This seems totally contradictory to me. The goal is to balance the classes but you don't want to argue about class balance?

You're powering up everybody but powering up some classes and archetypes a lot more than others. Which only makes sense if the original classes are significantly unbalanced.

Given that I think the existing classes are fairly well balanced I think your efforts are pretty much all making things worse.

And you need to do more work. For example, warpriest vs cloistered cleric. Warpriests are now very clearly far superior.

I don't see what is contradictory here. I don't want to debate whether the changes are necessary or not, I want feedback on whether they do what they're supposed to do well (buff the classes in both fun and meaningful ways).

If you don't agree the classes that got buffs need those buffs in the first place - that is just not something I'm personally interested in debating about. If, for example, you think the buffs that they got went too far, or that they are uninteresting, that would be a welcome feedback.

Given that you think the classes are fairly well balanced as-is, it seems like this document isn't really aimed at you, which is completely fine :)

And I definitely don't agree that Warpriest is "far superior" to Cloistered, but thanks for the suggestions.

Greetings!

I've been working on a houserule doc for the last few months which attempts to balance the different classes and options of the game, with a high priority on getting the most "bang for your buck" in terms of changes.

This means I mostly did not go into changing various class feats, but tried focusing on the most core aspects of the different classes.

Keep in mind that this document is written from a perspective of an optimizer, but is also meant to make the classes more fun to play.

I've also included my rationale for most of the changes so you could understand where I'm coming from.

Lastly, this document is a work in progress and likely to change and have things added to it.

Feedback is welcome, though I would highly prefer feedback on the changes themselves, and not whether they necessary or not, since the point of this thread is not to argue class balance :)

Without further adieu, the document:
Pathfinder 2.5e

The people trying to justify Spellstrike provoking AoO seem to not realize that Magus isn't that strong of a class in the first place.

Making Spellstrike not provoke would barely raise the class' power level and would simply make it less clunky and punishing to use what is his main offensive mechanic.

In addition, it would push the Magus less towards Starlit Span and reach weapons, which he currently is heavily incentivized to do (indeed, the Starlit Span is already the best Hybrid Study due to essentially being able to Spellstrike each turn, no reason to make it even stronger by punishing melee Magi for daring to use their iconic move in melee).

One of the Thaumaturge players from the first playtest here. I had played with a Whip, Paragon Weapon Implement, and initial Amulet and Chalice implements.

My experience has been that I was indeed quite squishy for a class so heavily encouraged to front-line (can't use Bows, only one-handed ranged weapon which at best only work if you take Weapon Implements). I had died quickly in 2 of the 3 fights that were not immediately decided by the Maze and Prismatic Wall.

It certainly did not help that I basically no defensive measures to protect myself, either, like the Rogue's Mobility or Monk's action compression, etc.

Additionally, I had felt like ruling that the reaction Implements worked on all creatures of the same type was paramount.

I believe the reaction Implements (Amulet & Weapon) would suffer greatly if they were to only be usable against a single target at a time.

Having an Attack of Opportunity or a semi-Champion's reaction against only one creature at a time would not have felt good at all due to how limited it would have been. This was especially true with how quickly my Esoteric Antithesis targets often fell in battles with many opponents.

Thus, these are my main insights from the playtest:
1. Increase Thaumaturges HP to 10 per level rather than 8.
2. Let Esoteric Antithesis and its effects (such as the extra damage and Implement reactions) work versus all creatures of the type you targeted with it.

Furthermore, I believe the reaction Implements (Amulet & Weapon) would suffer greatly if they were to only be usable against a single target at a time.

Having an Attack of Opportunity or a semi-Champion's reaction against only one creature at a time does not feel good at all, to me.

What are you suggesting the reloading be done with? If not a free hand ?

No. I suggest that weapons with Reload 0 should not require a free hand to 'reload' in between shots, because otherwise the classic Van Helsing concept is moot (if you want to hold an implement in your second hand, which of course, you do).

There is a trait called Capacity introduced in G&G which allows reloading without a free hand.

While technically an option, it is a very poor option. Wasting 2 actions to fire once is not a great use of actions unless you have something like a Way reload which sweetens the deal, which the Thaumaturge doesn't have, of course.

- You can use crossbows to strike. They have a strike action. (Even if you disagree there, they definitely at least have a reload action.)

- You can swap your implement in time to strike as a reaction.
Considering the two, it would be more intuitive to allow swapping before shooting as an action (it should be easier than swapping to shoot as a reaction), and it fits a literal reading. It also doesn't seem unreasonable to expect Van Helsing to be using a weapon implement.

Clear wording saying that you can swap to strike with a weapon, cast with a wand, etc. would be nice, but I don't think that concluding you can't is the right call here.

After all, if you couldn't get your weapon implement out after using your amulet, what would be the point of a weapon implement?

Fair enough. I think it is quite obtuse as is and should definitely be clarified if this is the intent.

And like I said in my post, even if this is clarified specifically for the Thaumaturge, I think there are still glaring issues with the way Reload 0 repeating weapons seem to require a free hand.

Can’t the hand crossbow be a weapon implement leaving a hand free ?

And have I missed something that says you can only have on implement out at once ? Can you not be wielding a weapon implement and another ?

Of course you can hold out both a Weapon Implement and another Implement at once, that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm saying that if you hold a Repeating Hand Crossbow / Air Repeater in one hand, and a second Implement in the other, you would not be able to 'reload' the Repeating Hand Crossbow because it seems that even Reload 0 weapons require a free hand.

And like I said, if the Weapon Implement does let you switch back to the weapon to attack with it, this isn't as much of an issue with Thaumaturge specifically, but it remains an issue for things like Bullet Dancer and Dual Wielding Gunslinger which want to use dual Repeating Hand Crossbows or dual Air Repeaters, and I still would not like being forced to take a Weapon Implement just to use a Repeating Hand Crossbow.

also as the previous mentioned. There ren't restrictions I know of on how many you can have at a time. Just how many you can hold. So amulet weapon implement combo should be valid optin no? (that won't help the hand reload issue though).

Granted if you have an autocrossbow and a few you could always drop instead of reload and pull a new one out if you hae drow shootist.

Yes, the hand reload issue is the issue I'm talking about.

And no, pulling out a new Repeating Hand Crossbow every time is most definitely not an option unless you somehow have enough gold to keep a bunch of crossbows runed up, which you should not have according to the official guidelines.

Also, at that point, what is the point of using a Repeating Hand Crosssbow if you just throw it away after one shot? It becomes just as good as a regular Hand Crossbow.

10th-Level Dark Archive Playtest (Link)

This document includes feedback for both the Psychic and the Thaumaturge, so I posted it in both forums.

For the record, I did not write these results myself, but have received them from an anonymous source. However, this analysis resonated so much with me that I am posting it here.

Also note that this doc is a constantly-updated work in progress, and will be updated every Thursday night, close to midnight EDT.

10th-Level Dark Archive Playtest (Link)

This document includes feedback for both the Psychic and the Thaumaturge, so I posted it in both forums.

For the record, I did not write these results myself, but have received them from an anonymous source. However, this analysis resonated so much with me that I am posting it here.

Also note that this doc is a constantly-updated work in progress, and will be updated every Thursday night, close to midnight EDT.

Design
The design of the class itself is great. Amps are cool, original, and distinctive.

Amps
The power of the amps is way too low. All of the amps should be as good as Message and Mental Scan.

Class Feats
Almost all of the feats are terrible. They are worse than the average full caster feats, which is the opposite of what they should be aiming for (better than average) because of your lower versatility compared to other casters.

Nitpick
Paizo, I don't know if you've realized this or not, but... Blasting spells don't scale well in this game due to the rate of HP advancement on monsters. This makes control spells much more effective once you start hitting level 7-8 onwards. Thus, all of these class abilities and feats that focus on blasting seem wrong-headed to me and will almost undoubtedly end up weak the more you level.

When I hear "free archetype isn't broken" all I can think of is the sorcerer player that MC'd into Swashbuckler (of all things) and used One for All in conjunction with Cooperative Soul to automatically grant the rest of the party what essentially amounted to +3 to everything, every round (or cast a spell and gave one person a +3 bonus).

The thing is, you can do that easily without Free Archetype anyway, and absolutely should if you're optimizing hard.

Also, I don't agree with the line of thinking that "people could take feat X anyway, you're not adding much more power giving it for free". Now they can take X and Y instead of having to choose. Pretty often there'll be more than one solid choice at a level.

And even about Reactions - yes, if you already have Attack of Opportunity, a Paladin retributive strike isn't quite as strong as when you don't have any reaction yet at all. But it's quite different for a ranger - much of the time your Disrupt Prey isn't working because it's not your Prey who's doing naughty things. And even for the fighter with AoO, having Retributive Strike can allow you to set up a situation where there's simply nothing an enemy can do that you won't punish. Hit me? Shield block. Hit my friend? Retributive Strike. Walk away? AoO. Yes, you can only do one of them, but you're almost guaranteed to actually get to do it because you cover all the situations.

OK, I want to test this claim. Let's take a highly optimized Fighter build - Exocist's Gnomish Flickmace + Spiked Gauntlet Reach Champion Fighter.

1: Double Slice (Retrain to Sudden Charge at 5, retrain back at 19 if you care by then)
2: Dueling Parry
4: Champion Dedication (Paladin)
6: Champion Reaction
8: Dueling Riposte
(9): Knockdown
10: Combat Reflexes
12: Dueling Dance
14: Improved Dueling Riposte
(15): Improved Knockdown
16: Determination / Stance Savant / Blind-Fight
18: Savage Critical
20: Boundless Reprisals

It already has all the reactions in the world, which are his main source of extra DPR, due to the huge amount of MAP-0 attacks he can make in a round with his reach and AoO + Dueling Riposte + Champion's Reactions. This is an example of a build that already has the best possible options for increasing DPR.

I claim that due to this, Free Archetype would not be able to push this build all that much in power level.

I would be curious to see someone show how Free Archetype suddenly makes this build meaningfully stronger.

2- Power Increase: Free archetypes made it easy for each character to have access to a focus spell, a good reaction, and a good third action. Each character could plug whatever holes in efficiency their build has with ease, which significantly increased their power. The only time I have seen a free archetype party actually threatened was when half the party went ahead and triggered a second encounter while the other half signaled a retreat. Even then, there was only risk to two characters.

Just make the encounters harder..?

In my opinion, free archetype is a crutch. People like it because they like more power. There may be a few who actually use it...

That's quite presumptuous of you to think you know why people like something. Especially considering how many people in this very thread explained why they like it, and it was not because of the power increase.

This post is dedicated to the submission, discussion, and publication of top-tier optimized builds in PF2e.

The intention is to understand the power balance between the classes by posting and discussing the most optimized builds possible for each class.

I will attempt to keep up with the comments and update this original post with new submissions for each class while listing their creator.

As for the rules:
1. All ancestries are allowed (including uncommon/rare).
2. All feats are allowed (including uncommon/rare).
3. All archetypes are allowed (including uncommon/rare).
3. Only common weapons unless accessed via a feat/ancestry.
4. Only common spells unless accessed via a feat/ancestry.

Special cases:
1. If used, Heaven's Thunder is assumed to work according to Paizo's suggested rework.

If your build doesn't follow these rules, just list in a 'Requirements' section which assumptions you're working with and provide alternative options.

To kick this off, here are Exocist's Optimal Builds.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alchemist

To be added.

Barbarian

To be added.

Bard

To be added.

Champion

To be added.

Cleric

To be added.

Druid

To be added.

Fighter

To be added.

Investigator

To be added.

Monk

To be added.

Oracle

To be added.

Ranger

To be added.

Rogue

To be added.

Sorcerer

To be added.

Swashbuckler

To be added.

Witch

To be added.

Wizard

To be added.

Build Collections

Exocist's Optimal Builds

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I look forward to future submissions and discussions!

I wanted to enlight that the "new hard choices" you are talking about, though they do exist ( because you could choose to take B instead of C regardless the fact you may have the free archetype or not ) don't invalidate the fact that given the free archetype, regardless the choice you make, you have a neat advantage compared to not having the free archetype.

I mean, having to choose between B,C,D,E,F,G and H doesn't change the fact that you are given A for free ( without the free archetype you will be choosing between, A,B,C,D,E,F,G and H ).

I see, but I never claimed that Free Archetype doesn't net you an advantage compared to not having it. That would be a pretty absurd claim.

BendKing wrote:

Kyrone wrote:

I Just don't like it, removes a lot of what I find fun in character creation that is weighting options and having to making hard choices between abilities that you want.

IF I would play or GM a free archetype game, it would be for themed games, like Skull and Shackles were everyone is a pirate and get that archetype for free.

I don't quite understand this. There are still hard choices, they're just different choices than the ones you used to have to make.

Imo, it is wiser to make a comparison between a lvl1-20 progression with and without an archetype.

For example, let's compare a Champion

without the free archetype

Quote:

1- Ranged Reprisal
2- Bard Dedication
4- Bard Basic Spellcasting
6- Sun Blade
8- Quick Block
10- Devoted Focus
12- Expert Bard Spellcasting
14- Divine Reflex
16- Occult Breadth
18- Master Bard Spellcasting
20- Sacred Defender

with the free archetype

Quote:

1- Ranged Reprisal
2- Desperate Prayer + Bard Dedication
4- Hymn of Healing + Bard Basic Spellcasting
6- Sorcerer Dedication + Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting
8- Quick Block + Occult Breadth
10- Devoted Focus + Sorcerer Breadth
12- Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting + Expert Bard Spellcasting
14- Divine Reflex + Bastion Dedication
16- Instrument of Zeal + Nimble Hand
18- Master Sorcerer Spellcasting + Master Bard Spellcasting
20- Sacred Defender + Quick Shield Block

Obviously you could do better synergies, but this might be enough to show the differences in terms of possibilities.

That said, I'll quote what I previously said

Quote:

But fun is subjective, so if on the one hand somebody might find not appealing playing with a party with characters too versatile, on the other hand another person might find it more entertaining.

I'm not sure if this is a response to my comment about there still being hard choices or not. If it is, could you highlight what about this comparison shows whether there are less or more hard choices?

I Just don't like it, removes a lot of what I find fun in character creation that is weighting options and having to making hard choices between abilities that you want.

IF I would play or GM a free archetype game, it would be for themed games, like Skull and Shackles were everyone is a pirate and get that archetype for free.

I don't quite understand this. There are still hard choices, they're just different choices than the ones you used to have to make.

Well said, the way PF2e handles base progression and makes many abilities situational means that while there's less need to optimize, you also have to tailor...

How does Downtime play such a big role in the game?

And thanks everyone for the great explanations, I'm learning a lot!