Thaumaturge doesn't work with Hand Crossbow / Air Repeater


Thaumaturge Class


So, I really wanted to make a Van Helsing type Thaumatruge, especially because the description of the Thaumaturge says a Thaumaturge might use a Hand Crossbow.

Unfortunately, this weapon does not work well with the Thaumaturge, because the class forces you to have both hands taken (one for an implement, the other for your weapon), which means you can't reload your hand crossbow after one shot.

Then I thought to myself - hey, at least you could use a Repeater Hand Crossbow! Alas, even weapons with Reload 0 require an open hand, as far as I can tell from Reload's text: "Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand".

Thus, the only way to use a 1-handed ranged weapon with Thaumaturge is... Wait for it... Juggler. Yes, indeed. If you want to play Van Helsing (or any other ranged Thaumaturge concept), he has to be a Juggler. You would also be pressed to take Focused Juggler so you wouldn't waste an action each turn juggling your gun/hand crossbow in the air.

This seems... Off-theme, to say the least.
The easiest and best solution to this in my estimation is to errata Reload 0 forcing you to have a hand open, and make it be possible to reload even with both hands taken.

This would also fix dual wielding Pistoleros not being able to use their Slinger's reload due to it not working with Dual-Weapon Reload (since they are different specific actions), and allow archetypes such as the Bullet Dancer to actually wield 2 guns as the sketch implies they are imagined to do.

To summarize:
Errata reload 0 to allow repeating guns to be reloaded without a free hand, and you will easily allow 3 fan-favorite concepts (Dual Pistolero Gunslinger, Van Helsing Thaumaturge, Gun Kata Monk) which currently all require 2 archetype feats from Juggler to work properly.


To add to this, I am aware that Implement Adepts reads "While you’re holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you’re wearing to use an action of the implement you’re switching to. To do so, you can Interact as free action
immediately before executing the action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action", but it is unclear whether this switching only works for using the Implement's given action, such as Chalice's Sip/Drain, or whether it's usable for any action allowed by the Implement, such as attacking with your Weapon Implement.

If the case is the latter, please clarify so. Though, I would still not be a fan of only being able to use a Hand Crossbow if you choose the Weapon Implement.

Additionally, this would still not fix the glaring issues with Repeating weapons needing a free hand to reload, but that is more of an issue with Guns & Gears than it is with Thaumaturge.


What are you suggesting the reloading be done with? If not a free hand ?


There is a trait called Capacity introduced in G&G which allows reloading without a free hand.


- You can use crossbows to strike. They have a strike action. (Even if you disagree there, they definitely at least have a reload action.)
- You can swap your implement in time to strike as a reaction.
Considering the two, it would be more intuitive to allow swapping before shooting as an action (it should be easier than swapping to shoot as a reaction), and it fits a literal reading. It also doesn't seem unreasonable to expect Van Helsing to be using a weapon implement.

Clear wording saying that you can swap to strike with a weapon, cast with a wand, etc. would be nice, but I don't think that concluding you can't is the right call here.

After all, if you couldn't get your weapon implement out after using your amulet, what would be the point of a weapon implement?


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Can’t the hand crossbow be a weapon implement leaving a hand free ?

And have I missed something that says you can only have on implement out at once ? Can you not be wielding a weapon implement and another ?


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Id also note, that it only causes conflict for the Implements that are battle centric. My lantern using one had no issue. I had a free hand for the impowerment when I shot. I could reload with my open hand.

So it does cause confict for some implements likke the amulet. but thats the same conflict as having a sword and board right?

It is, in part the same issue as two handed weapons or other options yeah? Weapon choice conflicting with the implement.
Class choices restricting weapon options similiar to choices in class feats etc?

Or is there a different issue i'm not understanding?

also as the previous mentioned. There ren't restrictions I know of on how many you can have at a time. Just how many you can hold. So amulet weapon implement combo should be valid optin no? (that won't help the hand reload issue though).

Granted if you have an autocrossbow and a few you could always drop instead of reload and pull a new one out if you hae drow shootist.


I'm guessing that they'll probably drop the bonus damage for one handed weapons and have some way to use implements without needing to hold them, at least for the ones that make sense like the lantern. But if it's true that it could work like quick draw, then you could use your actions fairly freely. Just hoping that they have support for two handed weapons, since right now, your ranged options are limited to thrown weapons.


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Lanathar wrote:
What are you suggesting the reloading be done with? If not a free hand ?

No. I suggest that weapons with Reload 0 should not require a free hand to 'reload' in between shots, because otherwise the classic Van Helsing concept is moot (if you want to hold an implement in your second hand, which of course, you do).

Onkonk wrote:
There is a trait called Capacity introduced in G&G which allows reloading without a free hand.

While technically an option, it is a very poor option. Wasting 2 actions to fire once is not a great use of actions unless you have something like a Way reload which sweetens the deal, which the Thaumaturge doesn't have, of course.

QuidEst wrote:

- You can use crossbows to strike. They have a strike action. (Even if you disagree there, they definitely at least have a reload action.)

- You can swap your implement in time to strike as a reaction.
Considering the two, it would be more intuitive to allow swapping before shooting as an action (it should be easier than swapping to shoot as a reaction), and it fits a literal reading. It also doesn't seem unreasonable to expect Van Helsing to be using a weapon implement.

Clear wording saying that you can swap to strike with a weapon, cast with a wand, etc. would be nice, but I don't think that concluding you can't is the right call here.

After all, if you couldn't get your weapon implement out after using your amulet, what would be the point of a weapon implement?

Fair enough. I think it is quite obtuse as is and should definitely be clarified if this is the intent.

And like I said in my post, even if this is clarified specifically for the Thaumaturge, I think there are still glaring issues with the way Reload 0 repeating weapons seem to require a free hand.

Lanathar wrote:

Can’t the hand crossbow be a weapon implement leaving a hand free ?

And have I missed something that says you can only have on implement out at once ? Can you not be wielding a weapon implement and another ?

Of course you can hold out both a Weapon Implement and another Implement at once, that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm saying that if you hold a Repeating Hand Crossbow / Air Repeater in one hand, and a second Implement in the other, you would not be able to 'reload' the Repeating Hand Crossbow because it seems that even Reload 0 weapons require a free hand.

And like I said, if the Weapon Implement does let you switch back to the weapon to attack with it, this isn't as much of an issue with Thaumaturge specifically, but it remains an issue for things like Bullet Dancer and Dual Wielding Gunslinger which want to use dual Repeating Hand Crossbows or dual Air Repeaters, and I still would not like being forced to take a Weapon Implement just to use a Repeating Hand Crossbow.

Zwordsman wrote:

also as the previous mentioned. There ren't restrictions I know of on how many you can have at a time. Just how many you can hold. So amulet weapon implement combo should be valid optin no? (that won't help the hand reload issue though).

Granted if you have an autocrossbow and a few you could always drop instead of reload and pull a new one out if you hae drow shootist.

Yes, the hand reload issue is the issue I'm talking about.

And no, pulling out a new Repeating Hand Crossbow every time is most definitely not an option unless you somehow have enough gold to keep a bunch of crossbows runed up, which you should not have according to the official guidelines.

Also, at that point, what is the point of using a Repeating Hand Crosssbow if you just throw it away after one shot? It becomes just as good as a regular Hand Crossbow.

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