Nope. You get the full item (separate, uncombined) or none of it.
What I'm asking is: can I just create the separate, uncombined part I want. Specifically, I could rephrase the question to say:
"After reverse engineering the item per the crafting rules. I would like to create a Belt of Hurling, as opposed to a belt of Mighty Hurling, lesser. Can I do that?"
The problem is that "belt of Hurling" does not exist as a standalone item in the books, even though the book tells us exactly how to make it using an existing item, and encourages upgrading existing items into combined items such as Belt of Mighty Hurling, lesser.
The essence of the question is: is this encouragement meant to be taken as two-directional, since it doesn't directly state one way or the other about that (so far as I can find anyway).
I have a question about creating exactly the items I want. As a quick clarification, however, this is NOT a question about loot that has been generated already. Alright, now that that's out of the way, here we go.
In the upgrading magic items, or more specifically, reverse engineering items for qualities not listed separately. The example that brought this question to mind was the Belt of Hurling (lesser). Said belt grants a +2 bonus to strength, and the ability to use Strength to hit with thrown weapons instead of Dexterity.
According to the wondrous item creation rules we know that adding a secondary effect to a wondrous item costs the effect's base price, and 50% of the cheaper effect's base price as a sort of stacking penalty.
The above belt has a retail price of 14,000 gold, and we know from the wondrous item creation rules that an enhancement bonus to an attribute is 4,000 gold. To find the stacking penalty we determine which one is less in price, and I'll spare you the math on that, but it's the strength bonus.
With that we know then that the Hurling part of the item should cost 8,000 gold. Now my question, which took this long to get to is: in PFS games, can we reverse engineer items like this to get just the parts out of it that we actually want?
In any other game setting it'd be a trivial question because so much of crafting is just swept under the rug anyway. But, with PFS a massive amount of restrictions have been levied on play with regards to the rules, and I want to make I'm in compliance.
I have given my input, and like always, there is some tiny little thing, completly imovable by reason, that no one is willing to do their own research on, that I have already beat to death in great detail.
I am now done with this thread. There will be enough for the OP to read, and take to his GM when he comes back anyway.
We have, through the course of discussion verified that, regardless of the concensus on 'natural attacks' that both the TWF Cavalier, and the TWF Samurai are completly viable, and have perks worth considering.
There is not, not a weapon proficiency for claws.
For every weapon that a player character can use but is not trained in by their class, they can take a weapon proficiency for said weapon. Commonly there are weapon groups, but there is also exotic weapon proficiencies for weapons they may posess but not be trained in.
"Unarmed weapons" are any part of the body (headbutt, knee to the gut, etc), such is the padded foot of a dog. By virtue of the claw being un-trained it is indistinguishable from the remainder of the body, and is simply a feature like the snout or haunch. Though still exists as a damaging portion of the body when trained (as with large cats and human's fingernails [see witch class]).
If the animal possessed sufficent intelligence (as mine does) to overcome the base animal instinct, it could perform an unarmed strike on it's own accord, such as with it's haunch (jumping off a crate and butt slamming someone) or heel-kick someone like a mule.
These unarm strikes would be exactly the same as the player unarmed strikes by virtue of meeting the same qualifications and requirements. They'd be light weapons capibile of being TWFed such as boxing or pawing and at a -4 penalty, provoking AoOs.
The animal instinct prevents this as it would cause an attack of opertunity against the performing creature and it knows it. The fact that you can Handle Animal into a situation where it knows it can get hurt, means you can do exactly that for other similar situations.
Exactly the same as how a long finger-nailed witch can take a feat to grant her 2 natural claw attacks.
In addition, you're using things that aren't RAW. You cannot simply take weapon proficiency (claws) and suddenly gain a natural attack.
Actually, I do understand the BP system, and assumed that you were not using it because you completly failed to identify any of the steps you had taken. As for my Build, con can be reduced by 4 attribute points (the required 6bp) and have no visible impact on the build itself.
Further, if you want to address the raw exculsivly. Please explain to me how Player Characters can do exactly this and gain several natural attacks, and why Monsters can not.
I am all for using the Raw to justify my stance, and to point to sources when they exist. I am also for pointing out when Paizo completly bumble-fudeged something.
I am generally not aforded the option of a Point Buy system, thus I merely took the stats you previously provided for the TWF Samurai and re-ordered them. If they don't make sense to you, I can't account for that as I myself did not come up with them. The cited post has no reference to any miscilanious additions to the base stats and implies that the stats represented are for level one characters. As no race was referenced I am forced to assume it had not yet been determined, and the racial modifications had not been applied, else it would have been stated.
kaisc006 wrote:
Spoiler:
These tales are false lol. TWF without a Ranger means bumping Dex causing more dump stats and without a Ranger/Fighter means feat starvation. Any Cavalier focusing on TWF is terrible on horseback which is the niche of that class. A Samurai (Sword Saint) works better but lets compare stat blocks:
From better hp, skills, and feats, a 2HF Samurai has so much more to offer.
For the purpose of detailing this progression, I assumed the stats you were addressing were as they were represented and utilized them accordingly. In referencing a counter sugestion I noted that 'even if you were human, and applying a +2 strength...' to indicate a comperable comparision with racial modifiers.
I fail to see how the BP could work for your original post, and not mine, under these listed circimstances.
Claws:
They're not secondary attacks, they're primary, just as a horse's secondary hooves magically become primary once they're wartrained, because the wolf is combat trained with them that's what weapon proficiency means.
That's why it takes a feat, because they were previously unfamilier with using them in combat (like improved unarmed strike) but thanks to the training they are now familier with them.
In fact, a wolf could attack with them untrained, exactly under the same rules of Unarmed Strikes, and provoking Attacks of Opertunity is exactly why they dont.
As for natural attacks themselves:
The Companion Chart is not unlike the Eidolon Chart. Note that, the Eidolon is the only monster in the entire Paizo repertoire that Paizo thought to give a chart of natural attacks to. They are also the only creature originally designed to spontaniously become proficient with other means of natural attacks outside the reference of the Animal Companion's Weapon Training with their own Natural Weapons.
In all the beastiary rule books, the topic of leveling monsters with natural attacks is never once discussed in reference to spontainously gaining an attack type, not even hinted at. In fact, the monster creation information also implies that the monsters made are for player destruction and do not gain levels themselves, there is no reference to further improvements on the created creature as it gains experience.
Natural Weapon Proficiency, like Improved Unarmed fighting proficiency, does not rely on your body spontaniously evolving more dangerous parts, but working with what you've got, and no one will disagree that wolves have claws. Further, Weapon Proficiency, like Improved Unarmed, makes your attacks lethal, and well trained, which is the qualificiations of a Primary attack. Even though they aren't known for using them as other animals are.
Thankfully however, there is already precident for (dozens in fact) when a creature spontaniously sprouts natural weapons, and how to handle it. Generally following the monster rules of "dump every natural attack in at once at highest BAB."
Example 1 When players get natural weapons.
Natural Attacks Summary:
Now I for one, feel more comfortable when referencing a leveling (growing or evolving if you prefer) monster, to use the Eidolon's base natural attacks, and limiting the creature to an appropriate quantity for it's level, assuming the creature has an equal number of natural weapons to accomidate. As the very deffinition of gaining experience is the same as evolving: to grow from experiences, adapt to circimstances, and change for survival.
The fact is that a monster is known to use every natural weapon they are trained in from the get-go, where as secondary weapons are not unlike the untrained penalty (-4 for people because we generally know what end to point the dangerous part). This is why Warhorse goes from Primary Bite, and two Secondary hooves, to two Primary hooves and a primary bite after training. Training that, mind you, did not take up a feat slot as our "Monsterous Improved Unarmed Strike" does.
What anything to the contrary is sugesting is that some creatures simply will have more attacks a round, regardless of how many weapons they are proficient with, just because they recieved a few days training and they happen to be a certain species.
This is laughably unballanced a concept for a creature that levels especially when we're referencing that the two creatures in question have the same exact BAB.
Further an equal level animal companion and Eidolon will have the same BAB regardless of selected evolutions, this would sugest the Natural Attacks per level rule of Eidolon is Universal for leveling monsters.
I was thinking more of Human Sword Saint with a Halfling Cohort.
If I was doing it with a Human (picking up the Wolf at 7 with GM permission) My halfling cohort would be a Disable/Pickpocket type rogue with Pass for Human. We'd make a Trio of it. Like, Little Read Ridinghood, the Huntsman, and the big bad wolf.
Ah, so it is, my mistake. The difference between Small Waki (1d4) and Kukri (1d3) (playing a dex heavy small race) is nearly negligable for the build.
I prefer not using hard to obtain weapons, which most GMs would agree that exotic weapons (in terms of being eastern) are hard to obtain, especially exotic weapons (again in terms of being eastern) requiring Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat (my build is not Samurai and does not gain the free proficiency).
The size restrictions still apply to the picking of a mount, A medium sized samurai could not start with a wolf. All small races take a racial penalty to their strength which is not optimal for Strength built characters.
As for a full build, what you've got for feats is pretty standard. The hardest part of the TWF character is generally the first 4 levels, and that's as far as I plan them usually. Up to level 7 with pets involved when I am sugesting viability to another player.
For a level 7 build we're looking at what I would consider fairly obvious, assuming we go again with samurai (they have the same pet stipulations)
Starting Stats:
Str: 23 (27 [23+4] Saddle as belt)
Dex: 15
Con: 19
Int: 3*
Wis: 12
Cha: 6
Natural Armor +8 (stacks with equipt armor such as breastplate)
Feats
Rebuild: Scent is replaced for Medium Armor Proficiency.
1: Weapon Proficiency: (Claws)
2-4: Power Attack
5-7: Rending Claws
*A creature with 3 or more intelligence, is considered intelligent for the purpose of learning languages (1 minimum even though they can't speak they can understand) and being able to be reasoned with. An int 3 creature no longer requires handle animal checks to get it into combat and can learn a routine if prompted enough times. (Get behind him and eat'em!) If your GM does not require handle animal checks to manipulate your animal companion, place the level up point into strength.
First thing you may notice is this is still a Cavilier, I felt that the combination of Team Percise Strike (Teamwork) and Hammer the Gap more than made up for the lack of weapon focus and weapon specialization, which together, take up a great number of feats themselves. Specifically, because I feel that the extra 1d6 damage a strike (which doesn't have the same requirements to perform as Sneak Attack) should count as my damage regardless of which team member in 30 feet actually issue the damage, as it is damage coming from my class features. Outside the context of self, and pet, this number becomes arbitrary however.
Sufficive to say, Pet starts with 3 attacks, and I start with 2, so that's an extra 5d6 if they all hit.
Generally speaking, I don't like getting power-attack, in this case Piranha Strike earlier than 9, and that's when I'd get Piranha Strike. Just making you aware that it exists for fineness builds.
As this is my character, I take rend instead, since it also benifits from Hammer the Gap.
Early on the Accuracy is that important to me than Power Attack damage which is hit or miss. Though it is there for later.
For those not keeping score at home, the weapons are a pair of +1 Agile, Keen Kukris. (total +3)
The Wakizashi is clearly listed as a shortsword in the ninja discription, and it is listed nowhere on the weapon list (Searching for Wak yields no results). It is effectivly a short sword (1d6 19-20/x2) and not a kukri (1d4 18-20/x2). Searching the site yields it's item discription, where it is called a short blade, but not it's actual stats.
Some things not yet considered by the PRD you're sugesting.
1: My build is a Cavalier, not a samurai.
2: The pet, and how it is used, is as much a part of the build as anything else. On that note comparing a horse to a wolf is a joke*. Just as full round flanking does not compare to single attack at the end of a charge (for the animal as neither have pounce).
3: The Cavalier has weapon proficiences the Samurai just outright doesn't, this gives flexibility in both emergancies and general planning.
3a: Martial Weapon prof. gives us the mighty Kukri, which has a higher crit range than Wakazashi (exotic short-sword).
3b: Situational factors such as Disarm, or Sunder. A Samurai trying to use any non-samurai weapons would be completely hosed. A Cavalier is momentairily set back but can use another weapon.
*Though they don't start with it, Wolves can be traned with their remaining natural weapons (weapon proficiency: Claws), and can be given Rend as a feat, raising their full round to up to 4 claws, a bite, a rend, and a trip attempt. Horses use hooves with which you can not rend, they also do not get trips with their bite. The level 7 horse also has 18 base strength to the Wolf's 21.
That's why I included them seperately and offered a comparible solution for your strength build.
It is also why I was using the pre-race-bonus statblocks you provided.
At level 1 with those stat blocks, a halfling would start with 20 dexterity. Even if you had a 20 strength human, we're looking at the same damage and hit bonuses but only being applied once at start, and TWF still wins out in that comparision (as they'd start in the same place, str and a half vs Dex + half Dex) and it's 2d3 vs 1d10 at that point. As the levels progress, TWF adds even more hits on the Two-hander.
The halfling could continue to dump level ups into dex, as it is the only stat required to do attack and damage with the above listed Agile weapon enhancement as you included +weapon enhancements in your damage comparision. Having a single stat focus, for both hit and damage, thus renders other stats completly unmentionable.
A high singular-focus build will always do more damage than a split focus build.
Stat distribution of your two handed guy makes me sad. By splitting stat focus you effectivly handycap him right away.
My TWF build starts with 20 dex, and gains +6 by the time you can use level 2 wands. Damage is dext based because of Agile Weapon enhanement. At level 3 to 4, the raw starting power of the TWF shames your 2HW. I don't mean to be insulting, it's just a fact that 20 > 16, or 26 > 22 assuming you got the bulls strength wand and used a medium base creature with medium alter self.
2d3+10 > 1d10+3. 2d3+16 > 1d10+8. et cetera and so on.
It is not unreasonable to have 200 to 400 plat by level 3 for the weapon enhancements, costing half that at 5 if you get a crafter in the party.
By the time your level 2 wands run out you should have the belt for dex.
This is going to sound insane, but have we considered that you can dump strength entirely if you have Agile Weapon Enhancement +1, and Weapon Fineness, as a Halfling Cavalier? Anyone remember 3.5 Halfling Outrider? Because this is going to look really familiar if you do.
Agile Weapon Enhancement +1: Use dexterity instead of strength for damage, works the same as if you were using str (crit mods it etc). Allows you to more effectively TWF on one stat than on two.
Weapon Fineness with the TWF feats and Dex as a Main stat allow us to round out that stat-block. Using the stat-blocks provided we can move things around a bit.
kaisc006 wrote:
Samurai/Cavalier: Tank & Flank:
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Recommended Race: Halfling (+2 Dex, Small)
Halflings may seem a bit silly at first (because you'll be using a pair 1d3 kukri) but a majority of this class's damage doesn't come from your weapon size. It comes from flat bonuses that you get along the way, which is after all, the reason we are even asking about TWF. In this case, if we have the agile weapons, and the above stat blocks, a halfling will start with 20 Dexterity, and weapon fineness. That's a +5 to hit right away and +5 to damage when your weapons have "Agile". At level 3 we can start working the TWF pole for more hits.
Get a bow or light crossbow, too, for those off circumstances where it'll be helpful to have someone who isn't completely incompetent with one. After-all halfling starting with 20 dex.
(*Cough* Survival Hunter *Cough Cough*)
Being small lets us take a wolf for a mount, instead of a horse, because horses have a gennerally sucky progression. Cavalir Mounts start with Light armor proficiency insteald of share spell, first level Animal companions gain an additional bonus feat of the player's choosing and you'll want to take Medium Armor Proficiency so you can get your mount a brestplate. Later, a really nice breastplate.
The Wolf pet, which is fairly beast in it's own right gets a size upgrade granting it more armor, str, and con (costs 2 dex, but animal companion gets +2str/dex at that level so it's a wash). Because it's base size doesn't go up anymore we could start working on a Mithril Breastplate (Agile) for a really nice defense and a jumping off point for upgrades.
A note about agile, it allows you to run at normal speeds (x4 instead of x3, x5 instead of x4 with run feat) and reduces climb and Jump armor check penalties. This armor is not inherently magic, as it was added as base armor in the APG.
As an aside you could also get an amulet of Mighty-Fists in a fashionable collar for your wolf, to let it bypass dr, or just bring the flaming awesome.
What this means is that the pet stays viable for being your dedicated flanking partner as you progress. It could be considered expensive trying to gear the pet in addition to yourself so that's a decision you'd have to make on your own.
As for mounted combat there is really only improved charges that suggests you need to use it. You could simply use your mount as an armored flanking partner. Someone who you can always count on to give you a flanking bonus.
As a cavilir you gain some sweet options for the party without loosing everything of melee value. Outflank, for example, does not say it replaces the standard flanking bonus, so it would be +4 (feat bonus) in addition to the +2 for the flanking you and your pet (who is also your ally) will be regularly doing. You can spread this love to everyone, pet included, in 30 feet of you with your tactician ability.
There are also some party-friendly archetypes that don't cost you your ability to 'hit it in the face a lot' that you may want to look into as well as they benefit you as a part of the party, and the rest of the party as a whole.
Couple of noteworthy spells, Alter Self (Small) and Cat's Grace if buy the wands, then a wizard/sorcerer/bard will generally use them on you on your behalf.
Having Alter-self (small) cast on you increases your dex (+2) without actually changing your size (and optionally you can keep your appearance). Before someone complains at this, the text says "When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type." And there is a Paizo dev clarification that says you can. So, any humanoid, yourself included.
This is a polimorph effect (+2) and would stack with Cat's Grace Enhancement (+4) effect both are obtainable fairly early on.
Man I wish we could find an answer to this, as it is the most relevant search result on the googles.
I was wondering about how the Aasimar's favored class bonus to summoner (DR/Evil) stacks with giving the Eidolon the racial trait of DR/Evil, as they are the same type from race/class combination, I would think they would add together as in your examples.
When looking at the rules for "Armor as DR" It expressly states as an example natural armor, and worn armor are two different sources of DR/Armor, but rather than take the highest they are added together and stack for the purpose of determining damage reduction.
This suggests that all same type DR stacks if it is the same DR/Thing.
Paizo wrote:
If a creature is wearing armor and has a natural armor bonus, the creature adds its armor bonus to its natural armor bonus to determine the amount of DR/armor that it has (see Table 5–2).
For instance, if a creature wearing a +2 chain shirt has DR 6/armor is then subject to a barkskin spell cast by a 6th-level druid (gaining a +3 natural armor bonus), its DR becomes DR 9/armor for the duration of the spell.
I recognise my part I had played in getting off topic and I applogize. As far as the later half of that is concerned, not reading informaitive, research is how the rebuttals went in the circular fashion they did.
Though, on the note of natural spell (and considerably more important Shaping Focus) both are available to the Summoner/druid, and are required to make the build work.
It is more likely that the summoner will start with Extra Evolution to help compensate for knowingly stalling out his Eidolon. Focused Eidolon, depending on whether you consider "inside of" equivilant to "adjacent to" if not, it doesn't hurt to have Vigilant Eidolon as a ready backup. Then you may have to ask yourself if you want to focus grapple, or trip, and the rest of your feats are going to go that direction.
Because I swear to god the original question was about Summoner/Druid who happened to have Augment Summon, and now there's like 40 posts about Augment Summon.
Master_Trip wrote:
Hey guys and gals,
I am a new DM, and not familiar with summoners and druids. Basically I have a PC who wants to augment summon his eidolon (which is living armor) and soon at lvl 5 (4lvl's of druid) be able to beast shape. Will he be getting all the bonuses +6 str +4 con +1 natural armor all on his X temperary hit point living armor eidolon.
I'm concerned I will be unable to even scratch this guy. Although he is reduced to making only his eidolons lvl 1 natural attacks.
This comes, again, infinantly back to your interpratation of "is Treated as" that is expressly built into the class feature, after the feat existed, then play-tested. There was then a ruling during the beta playtest, that again was over-ruled by the publication process.
It is an infinite loop of ignoring the text of the actual class feature, because it has a complicated past, and relying on the text of a feat that was created over a decade before the class that has a class feature that references it directly.
The only way it could get any more directly connected was if the word summoned was freaking italicized.
The spell "summon Eidolon" already was addressed earlier, and I raised the question how that spell is so different from the actual summoning ritual that a feat would apply to the same creature, called by a nearly identical method, with minor alterations like raising it from the dead and healing it.
Ordinarily I would entertain any other suggested scenario you have, but we'd be again, nit-picking semantics of something we've already established is not the job of the player.
And yes, for the purpose illustrating on a crayon-level complexity things overlooked, you could say with absolute certainty that that scenario was cherry-picked and I wouldn't disagree.
What you haven't said so far, with the exception of Augment Summon, that the remainder of the character is mechanically illegal to build, or why that would be true, with supporting evidence.
Augment Summon is still up in the air because of it's reliance on interpretation a non-disputed publication, disputes referenced came before the publication, something I've already gone into in gross repetitive detail, and by consequence am no longer interested in debating. The evidence already exists on this thread.
As for the DR It seems that I fat-fingered it. Reading 12 and typing on adjacent keys came out 23, either way for the illustration more than 6.
It seems Lobolusk we will be intent to agree to disagree. On what that we disagree has already been addressed as the major point of contention. The relative clarity of the meaning behind four little words. I don't see any suggestion that indicates you're talking about something other than Augment Summon as no one was debating the legality of any other point anymore.
At this point, for the reasons I listed, I suspect that there will need to be an official (post production) ruling made before everyone can agree on this point.
As for your particular case with the dragon deciple, I haven't done that research so I wouldn't have an answer for you. Personally as a GM, I allow Rogue's Spontanious Casting from Rogue Talents to meet the prerequisites of "Arcane Caster" as it states that your "caster level is your rogue level" but I'm not certain if that's what you're referencing.
If, according to your logic, I am over-powered for rise of the runelords. Which I myself have not looked into.
Then it stands to reason my GM will take steps to accomidate that by scaling the encounters, and by consequence change what we fight.
Note that, none of the arguments you have presented has been contingent upon this character being mechanically illegal to build.
Now that said, you just conceded that I undermined your entire argument about the damage reduction. And I'll go so far as to say, True-sight has the prerequisites of sight. Enemies can be physically and magically blinded.
At this point we're just nitpicking at semantics, it's not helping anyone, and I'm not doing it with you anymore.
You can't just say apples are better than oranges and then say oranges don't matter.
Displacement, Cover, and Fortification. Class features of the fighter tank (Who also gets a lot Damage Reduction of his own). A fighter puts on his suit of armor when he wakes up in the mornking. Hell, A fighter can sleep in his armor incase he gets attacked in the middle of the night. Summoner can't.
We're talking about entirely different types of tanking. Let's say for a moment, a rogue feigns and backstabs these two types of characters at level 20. You know, Assuming the rogue somehow got through the fighter's laughably high AC from shield (not able to be flanked shield counts against all enemies) and defending weapon.
Fighter:
Roll chance to hit through my Displacement.
Cool, you made it, I take 1d6 damage because max Fortification.
Oh, Scratch that, 23 damage reduction.
Summoner/Druid
OMG 15d6 of back-stab damage!
Glad I got all this Health...
It's not the same and you know it, and if you don't know it, you need to do a great deal more research before you keep talking about it.
Yeah... So you get more from one feat than a fighter with weapon focus, and weapon specialization, and toughness... not broken, oh fighters get more feats, yeah, but they have to spend 3 over 1 and still don't compare.
You also have perfect will, fort, and reflex saves, AC, possible Dr prior to level 17, charge and full attack... Fighters don't get what you're getting, so they don't compare. You can also heal yourself, buff yourself, and essentially immune to poison and disease, as it applies only to the eidolon. Sure, in the rules, clearly not thought t wthrough on Paizos part.
Why don't we all just play summoners? You'll all be invincible.
Fighters get:
Magic armor
Shields (tower shields grant cover)
Magic weapons (multiple for circumstances including "Defending" type weapons.)
Enough Feats to actually waste a few.
There is a Archtype for the Shield Fighter making it very Damage Mittigation heavy. We are talking a total Potential of over 30+ levels of magical enhancements from equipment (not counting alternate weapon options) that the Summoner/Druid literally can not equip. On that armor Fighters can get Displacement (50% chance to avoid a hit) Fortification (immunity to crits and back-stabs) and dancing weapons that grant haste.
Even if a Summoner got Robes of Displacement, it does not help a Synergist because it is classified as an magic armor.
When comparing apples to oranges it is very important that you find similar things to compare.
Fighters focus mitigation via avoiding hits, Sorcerer/Druid focuses mitigation though self healing. Not being a drain on the party is not the same as soloing the campaign setting. A Summoner will take an ass load of hits, and they will need an ass-load of healing, and the cleric is not going to be able to do it all, all the time, and fulfill it's role to the rest of the party.
@Necrovox, Good catch. Your understanding of the question (referencing the other people) seems to be rather correct, and it was I who misread it.
A tangent a moment to reference your other point. Scaling the adventure path to match the players is not the responsibility of the players. Any one, multiple, or all of the players can, at any time, power-game their character. It is not the responsibility of a single player, to power game all player's characters so that there will be balance for his character. Power gaming, while following the expressly written rules, is not cheating.
I am not the player, to my knowledge, being referenced by Master_Trip. I base this on the fact that I specifically Emailed my GM all of the research I have done, with all of the questions I had when I started, and we worked through them together already.
As for overpowering/overshadowing DPS. This has already been addressed. Specifically As addressed above, at mid level the DPS actually evens out. Anyone, with any class, can power game. There is nothing stopping the Healer from doing similar things with his respective class, same with DPS, et cetera.
[Cough, Sorcerer with Leadership making a Craft Wands assembly line Cough Cough]
And, most importantly, as an extremely specialized class build, there are many areas that traditional classes also shine that this build simply does not. Again, already addressed.
The fact is the more narrowed your focus as a player, the more you will outshine other players in that one field, and the less you can compete in other areas. Can I out tank a Fighter? Possibly. Can I build a Fighter that can compete with, or even out-tank this character? Absolutely.
Will that character suffer the same fatal flaw of being useless in other areas? You bet.
Just because a character does one thing really well, doesn't mean it's the best character at the table.
I do see a notable bit of irony in the fact that there are people telling me that I am unequivicallby wrong about one tiny little facet of my response to Master_Trip's question based on how relative you can percieve two tiny little words, even after I went through the work of giving an apples to apples comparison of the Feat-slots to Attribute bonuses for said feats.
While every single aspect of the rest of the question has been proven possible with references to the rules.
Not taking Augment Summon, while unfair as it is legal according to the RAW overturns the one voice decrying it, is not going to be an end of days scenario for the character. Falsely saying that it's not a legal move to take something when it is. That breaks games.
The insane reality is that Augment Summon is actually negligible to the performance of the character.
As the Summoner can take two equally silly feats that do not so highly stressed the nature of being summoned.
4 Constitution amounts to a total of 40 hit-points over the course of a of a Lv.20 character. Half of that is gained by toughness (For half the required feats). 4 Strength amounts to 2 attack and 2 damage and negligible push/lift/carry etc even at level 20.
Do I still think a Eidolon should be able to use Augment Summon? Yes.
Is it worth all this insanity? Yes, as a matter of principle.
The Eidolon Ritual is a supernatural ability as per JB (which he has not retracted in over 2 years). It's right there in black and white. ...Period.
Oh, we're back to this again... Great. Let's just recap so we can move on.
SUPER TLDR RECAP
1: This statement was made before the official RAW was published. Specifically referencing beta-material.
2: Other statements were also made about beta-material.
3: Some changes were implemented in the production and published RAW, and some were not.
4: This one specifically was not.
5: No explanation was given.
6: The over-ruling of the details outlined by JB's statement, of the feature, were printed physically in living color when the material was published.
7: No post-publication material (Errata) has repealed this over-ruling of the statement (by virtue of not adding it) made about the beta-materials that were made official by process of publication.
Your argument that it wasn't overturned in 2 years is wrong, as the publishing of a contrary set of information is a statement made by the company as a whole, because this publishing came out after the statements made by JB, and being contrary (or simply different) to those statements constitutes an over-ruling.
Using your argument, while discounting (but not discrediting) mine, is hypocrisy.
Also, your red-herring argument is bad, and you should feel bad.
As an aside Kazaan. Page 33 of the Game Mastery Guide references the GM's right to "Fudging" or "Cheating" for the sake of the story. According to the book, it's your right as a GM to change the rules to fit your game.
But, Understand...
You are cheating your players. Not the other way around.
@Lobolusk I'm glad someone finally asked instead of blaketly saying, without research or facts, that it does nothing.
As noted above, you end up with wild shape, at the cost of 4 Eidolon evolution points (one for each level you're not a summoner, and some other multi-class taxes as well). Wild Shape takes away your capacity to wield weapons and exchanges it for extra attributes (as a Polymorph effect) and additional creature traits, so long as they don't overlap with existing traits gained by your eidolon. Additionally you can wild-shape into elementals who retain the same shape as your eidolon (but generally don't offer animal traits) and gain other benefits for utility. (In the monster manual, for the pictures of earth elementals, there is a rock dog.)
A fair example would be wildshape into something that has claws and pounce, then strip those traits from your eidolon to gain the evolution point refund, which helps mitigate part of the loss.
The cost of doing this is your spells suck ass, even if you can cast them via natural spell. It shifts the Off-Tank/Utility into a (self stable) Main-Tank/buffer role.
In the above example you may have saved yourself only a couple of points from traits, but you can use them to other benefits. What it does for your remaining equipment slots, is allow you to focus more on one singular thing rather than trying to mix and match as being shoved into multiple roles for the party.
Presently my party is running Rise of the Runelords, we have a Cleric, a Wizzard, and a Rouge. No classical tank, so I volunteered to fill this role as a Summoner/Druid. To build this way, as a main tank, costs all of my feats.
I'm extreamly good at two things.
1: Taking it in the face.
2: Convincing enemies it's my face they want to put it in.
This seems like the summoner steals the limelight, but that is only true in circumstances that focus on how awesome it is to be a tank. If that's a problem for your players, encourage them, or the GM to give the players more variety so it isn't just one crawl after another.
One of the very noteworthy caveats is my character has 19 charisma, which is awesome for a dog, but at the end of the day, it still looks like, and acts like a very pretty dog to most NPCs. While they're all at their wizzard schools, churches, or hanging out with noblemen, I'm basically left at the stables with the rest of the livestock.
That looks quite like it's in your favor at first glance.
But then research happens:
Doing research on that particular post we can see that it was made during the beta playtest, exclusively referencing playtest material, before the rules of the books were formalized and released.
The closing of the play-test, and the publishing of the book, finalizes the rules regarding the class, which overturns this post as the wording that is now RAW is contrary to that beta-post.
Whether or not the words "Treated as" were in the beta version of the game... The final, published book added these words in, with no expression to the contrary anywhere in the book, where in the previous rules of the words "treated as" must be accomidated for the rules to remain consistent.
For what we have to reference, the Publication made without this statement, is the final word because it came after this beta post. There has not been an Errata redacting it since. Nor was the PRD even updated which is a big deal considering the source.
It was the lead designer who closed the beta, and it is the lead designer who updates the information on the PRD. The lead designer updated other aspects of the eidolon class feature during the beta but chose to leave this class feature as is. Therefore what was true then, is no longer true now, else it would have been corrected. The hard copy of the book shipped out with only some of these beta changes being implemented. No post-publication references (to my knowledge) exist to officially overturn this fact, and if they did, I am absolutely certain someone will throw it in my face without hesitation.
here is a quote of him demonstrating that he can recognize and error, and correct it, and the phrasing "treated as" has not be adjusted in such a way. Nor does it expressly state in the Summoner Class that the Eidolon does not benefit from feats that benefit summoned creatures.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
The claws are primary attacks, not secondary. That is an error. Thanks for the catch, I will make sure it is fixed.
Asside:
Darth Grall sourced the following. I'll make sure to update my origninal post regarding this, though I feel it's an optional ruling because it did come out after the source material was published, but it is not in an errata.
In your notaiton of Transmogrifiy I did address that as well.
Sean K Reynolds, 08/03/11 wrote:
When fused, use the eidolon's BAB instead of the summoner's class BAB, and add in BAB from other sources as normal.
This is a correction I am happy to have, as it clearly came post publishing of the material, but I myself will not be using.
No Errata so it didn't happen to me.
Secondary Asside:
Whale_Cancer
The book says "Treated as summoned" not "treated as extra planar ally" or "treated as rain of frogs" or "treated as ..."
Before I even begin to consider that a "legitimate" question, and not an insulting goad, I'll need you to point to a rule stating that "treated as" expressly does not mean "gains the benefits and penalties of."
I'm going to let you be responsible for your own argument. You say mine's wrong without evidence or research, I can wait patiently while you find it.
I'm not changing my position. I have made the statement: Errata or it didn't happen.
The Errata didn't happen.
The wording "Treated As" has context (this intent as you call it) from other locations in the RAW (in the very first book of the RAW to boot), so we use the same context and implications as those accepted postings of "Treated as."
I know exactly what I have said and I have remained consistent.
I will note however, that of all of the responses to the Original Poster's question. I was the only one who brought in all those fancy facts, and silly research, you know, reference links to the rules to build a legitimate case founded on logic for my argument.
How silly of me to forget that this is an argument being had on the internet.
Now we're just going in circles where you ignore the argument I made explaining why what you are saying is inaccurate. So I'll just say again: "Treated as"
Also, the Augment Summon spell was written about 4 books before The Summoner class in terms of it's relation to pathfinder. One of the first rules of multi-book systems, is always go with the most recent publication.
Whether or not a developer stated that it is, or is not how it was intended to function. Somewhere... The developing company Paizo, did not amend the class through an Errata (official document for amending RAW Rules post production) like other class features have been modified post production via Errata.
When we're talking about the RAW rules, that is what the RAW rules state.
Roberta Yang wrote:
If this PC is a Summoner 1 / Druid 4, that synthesist armor should be really weak. It's only going to have 6 HP, three evolution points, and mediocre physical stats for a front-line fighter. How exactly is it posing such an obstacle?
I'm glad you bring this up, because the hit-points and the evolutions are not the obstacle, they are the balance. I'm not saying the class is under-powered. I'm reminding the Original Poster that the class has balances that prevent it from being overpowered. The frailness of the Eidolon Armor is one of those balances.
If the summoner is not careful, or mindful of his HP, there are a couple outcomes that can follow.
1: The summon dies mid fight and the Summoner is denied those bonuses.
2: The Summoner spends himself unconscious (HP wise) trying to keep the low HP Eidolon up, and the Eidolon is dismissed, denying him the benifits of the enidolon.
Let me phrase this in another way that you may better appreciate what I am saying.
We can both agree that Wild Shape is treated as the Beast Form Spell with exceptions? (Something the book expressly states)
That Barbarian Rage is treated as the Rage Spell with exceptions? (Something implied by the nature of the ability.)
The fact of the matter is that the Eidolon is being treated as if it were a summoned creature/monster produced by a Summon Monster, or a Summon Nature's Ally, which gain the benifits of Augment Summon.
Eidolon does not have to be a summoned creature to be treated as a summon monster and that is the body of my argument. Something continuously overlooked in rebuttles.
You may be right, or not, in saying Eidolon class feature is not a spell, it expressly does not say what type of ability the class feature of Eidolon actually is. But it does expressly state that it is treated like a summoned monster, where in the only context can possibly have is "in regards to effects that benefit and hinder summoned monsters" feats included.
The nature of a summoned creature, is a creature that is summoned, it qualifies literally all of the conditions of "Summon Monster" Including duration qualifications, the extra planar nature, et cetera. Even the ritual when cast in combat provokes attacks of oppertunity identically to a spell. It simply has a longer duration than Summon Monster, and as a consequence a longer cast time.
The only difference in your argument is that on the Eidolon class description the words Summoned Creature is not in italics, though it expressly states that it is treated as a summoned creature.
If Italics is the whole basis of your argument, I could point to tens of thousands of grammatical mistakes in the entirety of Paizo's publishings for Pathfinder.
The spell you are expressly referencing also functions like a temporary raise dead spell, should it benefit from the raise dead's bonuses as well?
Raise dead spells, especially this one, technically heal a creature from less than 0 hit-points does it gain heal bonuses to boot?
According to the wording of the ability, Eidolons are expressly considered "Summoned Creatures" (The same as Summon Natures Ally's "Creatures") and thus should benefit from Augment Summon.
Summoner Paizo PRD wrote:
"Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score."
As a player doing this himself, and has done an ass load of research for my GM, who was also concerned about this topic... I thought I'd weigh in on this.
You must remember the consequences that come with multi-classing and how they affect the altered Eidolon from the Synergist.
First, and foremost, the Eidolon is Locked at level one for the first five levels of the character's life (assuming it goes straight for Wild Shape after). It's hit die (for bonus con hp) does not increase, nor does it's BAB (important in a moment) as no other classes grant progression to Eidolon, nor is their a feat for Eidolons comparable to Shaping Focus. If your player hasn't mentioned this yet, he's building up to it. As this pertains to Augment Summon, two feat slots will only give it +2 Hit points, and +2 attack/damage for the duration of this dip.
What this means for the player:
His attributes are always based on this Level 1 Eidolon. Including Base Attack Bonus, even if his BAB exceeds the Eidolon's 1.
Synergist Class Feature wrote:
The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores.
Note how it doesn't say "Oh, hey, if it's convenient..." or "use the higher of the two." It expressly states, with no uncertain conditions, that it out right replaces. This means the Four levels of Druid will not increase his base attack bonus while the Eidolon is alive or summoned. While not present, continue as normal.
That means: At level 5, when the Synergist/Druid has gotten it's 4th level of druid for the purposes of wild shape, and met the requirements for, and taken Shaping Focus. It will still have a base attack bonus of one, and it will still have a base 3-4 Evolution point pool to select from. In fact, the Eidolon is still mechanically locked into the the evolutions selected at level one because they can only be changed on summoner class level up.
Eidolon Class Feature wrote:
Whenever the summoner gains a level, the number in this pool increases and the summoner can spend these points to change the abilities of the eidolon. These choices are not set. The summoner can change them whenever he gains a level (and through the transmogrify spell).
Second the Wild Shape:
Synergist Eidolon is a form merger changing the base form. Wild Shape is a polymorph effect cast expressly as though it were a spell with a few conditions. This is different form people's gut reaction (based on 3.5) as it does not replace your attributes with the creatures. It instead gives you a Polymorph effect granting you a bonus. This effect expressly resolves as the spell,(see below) where the druid is the caster (see further below).
Druid Class Feature wrote:
This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here...
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Effect of spell via spell text.
Exception Notations made by wild shape class feature:
Druid Wild Shape wrote:
he effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.
Beast Shape Spell wrote:
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 hour./level (D)
Being Ex, that does not provoke attacks of opertunity, removes casting verbal, somatic, and material components.
This is a Polymorph effect. (Discussed below)(source)
Something we will be seeing, and discussing a lot in regards to this particular unholy union is the attribute on the magic page in the Players Handbook outlined as "Rendering Useless."
Having something that replaces stats does a lot of hinky things that iron themselves out. According to the Magic Section of the Players Handbook we have the Rendered Ineffective cluase under the stacking effects explanations.
Magic Stacking Effects wrote:
One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.
What does this mean for the attributes if they both gain benifit? Simple, the Eidolon still over-writes the summoner's attributes while it is summoned, but the other effect is not dismissed, simply rendered irrelevant under those conditions. Should the Eidolon die, or be dismissed during Wild Shape, the base attributes of the summoner would still benefit from Wild Shape.
Eyeball Friendly Numeric Example:
Player has base stats of 10 str, 10 dex, 10 constitution.
Eidolon (Quadraped for example) has base stats 14 strength, 14 dex, 13 constitution. Beast shape I Grants bonus to strength and dexterity of +2.
Newly Adjusted stats become:
Summoner 12 Strength, 12 Dex, 10 Constitution
Eidolon: 16 Strength, 16 Dex, 13 Constitution.
Third the Proficiencys:
Weapon Proficiency: According to the explanation of Synergist, when wearing the Eidolon the Synergist may manipulate it to wield a weapon because his base form is capible. However when the synergist uses wild shape to change is base form, via polymorph, he looses the ability to wield weapons if the new form is not capable.
Synergist Class Feature wrote:
The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
In regards to synthethis and the druid's Polymorph effect the summoner and the Eidolon are the same base creature that forms the druid. Their physical stats are factored seperatly, but as the target of the spell is the caster, and the summoner can not be targeted seperatly from the eidolon they both benifit from the Polymorph effect of Wild Shape.
Synthesist Class Feature wrote:
The synthesist directs all of the eidolon’s actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature. ... Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature.
Condition from Synergist Class: While Eidolon is alive, use Eidolon's Attributes. Thus the player only gains the benifit once, in spite of it being active on him twice. Because of the condition that the Eidolon could be dismissed or die, forcing the player to revert to it's base stats, that are still modified by the Polymorph effect of being in Wild Shape, but rendered irelevant by the superseding bonus.
Armor Proficency:
Druid class grants the Summoner an additional armor and shield proficiency, but at the cost of non-metalic armors as noted below.
Druid Proficiency wrote:
Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only those crafted from wood.
This is important to druids, and to a lesser extent summoners when we consider the Wild (Armor Property) magical enhancement for armors. This enhancement grants the armor bonus to the druid in wild shape. Except the Synergist still will not benefit from it per the rules of Eidolon Synergy (also noted below).
Synergist Class Feature wrote:
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor.
This establishes that the summoner (synergist) neither benifits from weapons or armor, and the powerful enchantments that come from those slots. Nor can the Synergist use a shield for the same reasons.
Attacks Per Round and Base Attack Bonus:
Now that we've established slot limitations countering attribute bonuses we must address the next obvious balk. Attacks per round given by natural attacks and a "higher than normal" attacks per round via natural attack.
Through this route the Synergist has be mechanically locked into three natural attacks per round, with the natural weapons it started with. If it was smart that Synergist would have started with Natural Armor (+2, costing 1 evolution point) (Claws costing 1 evolution point) and (Pounce costing one evolution point). Thus starting at level 1 with 3 natural attacks after a charge.
The problem is, they do not get a 4th natural attack until summoner level 4, which means character level 8. At character level 8, all primary and secondary attack characters can get 4 attacks a round through raw base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting feats. The same two feat slots that the Summoner put into Spell Focus(conjuration) and Augment Summon. Or [for apples to apples] The same two feats spent into Extra Evolutions and Shaping focus (if you perfer).
This means Bards(source) Clerics(source) Monks(source) et cetera. Though, keep in mind, the Eidolon's base attack bonus is 4 levels lower than a Fighter, or Barbarian, making it even lower than a Bard/Cleric/Monk and at this point the Eidolon, even with Augment Summon, will likely have lower attributes than a Fighter or Barbarian. As Quadraped starts with 14,14,13 would gain +4/4, and likely spent it's level up point into con to even it out. Meaning base physicals of 18/14/18. The Wild shape is then on Par with Rage (barbarian), or Heroisim (fighter).
Alternate Ruling:
Darth Grall sourced the following. I feel it's an optional ruling because it did come out after the source material was published, but it is not an errata.
Sean K Reynolds, 08/03/11 wrote:
When fused, use the eidolon's BAB instead of the summoner's class BAB, and add in BAB from other sources as normal.
This is a correction I am happy to have, as it clearly came post publishing of the material.
My opnion, and GM's like me, is Errata or it didn't happen. Which is kind of important to a lot of the bickering about minor wording differences here and there.
In conclusion the natural consequences of dipping Druid on a Summoner balance themselves out and nothing need be done except remain mindful that these costs are there.
