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Well, I'm looking at a (Mainly) Ranged Rogue character that takes two levels of Synthesist. That would allow the following two evolutions:

Shadow Blend (Su)*

In any condition of illumination other than bright light, the eidolon disappears into the shadows, giving it concealment (20% miss chance). If it has the shadow form evolution, it instead gains total concealment (50% miss chance). The eidolon can suspend or resume this ability as a free action. Source: Advanced Race Guide

Shadow Form (Su)*

The eidolon's body becomes shadowy and more indistinct. This shadow form grants the eidolon constant concealment (20% miss chance), and its melee attacks affect incorporeal creatures as if it had the ghost touch weapon property. The eidolon's melee attacks deal only half damage to corporeal creatures. Source: Advanced Race Guide

It's just an idea fermenting in my head, but as I looked around, I could find what happens when you attack someone with concealment, just not what happens when you have (total) concealment and are the attacker.


Hi - was looking at the term "Concealment", and have a character that can be in "Total Concealment" all the time - what then happens when I attack from that? If I was a rogue, would I get sneak damage?


Mojorat wrote:
If you take a to hit penalty it applies to all your attacks unless specified otherwise.

Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.

Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)

Pretty sure TWF/MWF are only talking about Weapon/UAS attacks - natural attacks are something different, and not applied. If they were, then any time you had a single natural attack along with a weapon attack, you'd be walking into the realm of TWF, along with the associated penalties.

"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."

So, as I've read and seen played, natural attacks are never considered off hands, but either primary or secondary, with a flat -5 to the attack if secondary - TWF/MWF has penalties that only apply to primary hands and off hands.

As for the free maneuver and the penalties that you would apply to that, I'm actually unsure the rule on that. It's a free maneuver, and doesn't have to be from any determinate source (primary/off hand/secondary/whatever), so I would assume you apply the -2 from Flurry of Maneuvers, add BAB and STR and other bonuses, to get your CMB. (?)

For the Unarmed Strikes, I am pulling from the Monk information:
"At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."

This seems, as RAW and RAI, a Monk, regardless of body-type, gets one normal UAS, can take another with an appropriate limb and using TWF rules, and by adding more limbs, move into the MWF rules.


Mojorat wrote:
A few things. All your attacks suffer from the twf Penalty. Also eidolon cannot have claws on their hind legs.

Are you certain about this? I thought TWF/MWF only effected iterative attacks, and that natural weapons were either, on their own, primary or secondary, and if secondary, you would only apply a -5 penalty to hit. And I looked around A LOT - it seems that you can have claws on hind legs - but only once can you apply them to a limbs (legs) - so either front or back legs, but that's it.

Mojorat wrote:
Lastly your maneuver from maneuver master would be +2

I hadn't gotten to this yet, but I thought you had a -2 to begin with (assuming with a Flurry of Maneuvers), but no penalties from TWF/MWF should be applied (I thought) - would I be wrong here?

Mojorat wrote:
Also I think the ability to strike with any part of your body was a feature of the original flurry of blows which you no longer have. also you no longer have the class feature making your offhand UAS do full str damage. So your damage for offhand is half.

I'm pretty sure that's the Unarmed Strike feature of the monk, which I should still have. The any part of your body is just the fluff on the attacking - well, kinda - but I'm trying to sift through the fluff for the actual game rules and mechanics :) And remember, I'm not doing a Flurry of Blows, I'm trying to use TWF/MWF with extra limbs (arms).

And Choco, true, if I was going to duplicate Liono (which I though of :)
but I'm just looking in that general direction, not a specific cat.


And just as a follow-up, would this be the way that a Synthesist/Monk, quadruped form, with a single Limbs (arms) evolution and using Unarmed Strikes, with TWF, look, upon a full-attack?

Head / Bite / -5 to hit, 1/2 Strength

Left front limb (leg) / UAS / -2 to hit, full Strength
Right front limb (leg) / UAS / -2 to hit, full Strength

Left back limb (leg) / Claw / -5 to hit, 1/2 Strength
Right back limb (leg) / Claw / -5 to hit, 1/2 Strength

Left middle limb (arm) / UAS / -2 to hit, full Strength
Right middle limb (arm) / UAS / -2 to hit, full Strength


Hey all - thanks for your help! Trying to make a quasi-Thundercat kind of character, not terribly optimized (I like some skill evolutions and flight plus other fun stuff), but I do want to make sure what I have is solid.

My character will ideally be a 1st level Monk (Maneuver Master)/Synth, quadruped form. I start with the Bite and Limbs (Legs) and Limbs (Legs) evolutions for free.

So some questions - I've checked the forums, and still don't have definitive answers - any help appreciated.

1. Assuming no other evolutions, can I make an Unarmed Strike? I would assume that I can make exactly one (with a knee, a foot, an elbow, whatever). I am assuming yes on this one, say Unarmed Strike w/ left knee.

2. If #1 is yes, then can I take a second attack with the opposite limb, say Unarmed Strike w/ right knee, with all the appropriate penalties for multi-weapon fighting?

3. Next add the evolution: Claws (Legs/Paws). Again, can I make an Unarmed Strike? Can I make a second attack as in #2? And, for either, can I make all of my natural attacks (Bite/Claw/Claw, secondary and at -5)? Again, I'm assuming yes, as long as each limb/head only makes one attack, so I'm thinking Unarmed Strike w/ left knee, Unarmed Strike w/ right knee, Bite w/ head, Claw w/ left paw, Claw w/ right paw. (so with penalties and TWF that'd be -2/-2/-5/-5/-5)

3. Can I add the evolution: Limbs (Arms), to a quadruped, and use both hands for off-hand (though with full Strength damage bonuses) Unarmed Strikes? I know I could put a light weapon in each hand and have an attack w/ each hand (at appropriate penalties), and you treat Unarmed Strikes as light weapons, so this seems viable.

4. Can the evolution: Reach be taken with a weapon (for example, Greatsword), and thus you stretch out whenever using that particular attack? If it is taken for an evolution: Claws, would it apply to both claws?

5. Massive tangent - what happens when you, the Synthesist, cast Unfetter on your Eidolon? Does it stay in form, but now it can be effected by regular healing spells, while you can no longer access its temporary hitpoints nor heal it via yours? (I would think this situation.)

Like I said - thanks! I'm not trying to screw the other players or min-max to the extreme, but I really like the concept of the class and want to make sure I'm playing it correctly via the rules of the game.


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Just wondering on people's opinion if these two 'archetypes' can be incorporated with one character? I'm not sure if "class feature" is supposed to be considered the same as "class's eidolon ability".

Thanks for any replies/help!!

(Wild-caller wording)

This ability alters the normal summoner’s eidolon
class feature, but is otherwise identical to that
class feature.

(Synthesist wording)

This ability replaces
the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.


Alitan wrote:

Hara kiri

or to be more exact, hara-kiri, and while I do thank you for that bit of spell-checking, it doesn't quite help with the question :)


Hi - quick Eidolon/game rule/questions - thanks in advance for any help.

1. Can an Eidolon commit hara-kiri? ("Spot - I need you gone so I can summon more elementals - take a break!" "K boss - cya!" <gurk>)

(Basically to save you a standard action of dismissing)

2. Seriously - if he kills himself with a knife that he carries, where does the knife go? And when you re-summon him next day, can it be sheathed?

3. Is the assumption of #2 correct - that equipment/items carried by the Eidolon disappear when he is dismissed/killed, and reappear upon its summoning?

4. Could an Eidolon, upon creation, be given Feats that are unknown in the current world (example, gunsmithing)?

5. Can an Eidolon take traits (via the Feat extra-traits)?

(spelling edited :)


Two things though - the abilities and combat maneuver sections at the beginning of each summons have a kinda false sense about them because you add Alternate Summons in there.

I think you should add either an asterisk to any Alternate Summons, or leave them out entirely from the beginning summations.

Also, for the Best Damage and Best Tank, it'd be nice to have a couple numerical stats there (damage and HP/AC respectively) to put them in context. It would also allow a quick basic evaluation on whether to move up a level of summoning or just go with a lower level/multiple summons.

Great guide, though, and thanks for creating it!


Great job Kaptain!


Coffee and plants suck.


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ciretose wrote:

Very simple, if an item detects as magic and has a permanent magical effect

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

If it isn't a magic item, what is it?

A mundane pigeon with disguise self and ghost sound cast upon it.


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No - a magical item is one that has been created over a time, with a process that interweaves magical abilities among its very essence. If that item is broken, then the magical abilities are considered broken as well.

For example, I could make a wand, which I will call a "Light Wand" - use all the relevant crafts, costs, etc, and have a magic item that sheds a light spell continually, ala the Continual Flame spell. Could make it permanently on, or be command-word activated, whatever.

Should someone detect magic upon it, the entire item will radiate magic.

Should that item be sundered/broken, whatever, it would be considered broken, and the magical ability - the light - would stop working, until the item was repaired.

Now, if instead, I cast a Continual Flame upon that wand, I now have a mundane item with a magical spell affixed to it.

Should someone detect magic upon it, it is quite realistic that they could narrow the magical emanations down to the aura itself, and probably center it upon the specific point that the spell was cast upon.

If the item is sundered/broken, then you still have the Continual Flame emanating, only from the piece closest to the specific point that the spell was cast upon. Break that piece down, then that piece down, etc, and you could conceivably end up with but a shard of that wand, with the Continual Flame still merrily lighting up the corridor.


I might have grabbed a point for my int from my str - and agree on the crossbow - better to be shooting something than swinging something, and skills are all pretty useful.

The resistance spell kinda falls to the wayside once you get cloaks - maybe get light as a replacement?

Next, I'm not sure your eidolon makes a great night-time guard - he poofs when you fall asleep.

As for the physical abilities, remember he'll always be 1/2 your level, and he isn't a full BAB anyways, so there will be a time (soon/now) that his attacks just won't hit. Since you have a large party, though, it's not like you really need another main attacker, so making him more of a stealth/ranged is best.

Finally, I'd check your eidolon's stats - I think you added a level (at least) in there. If you are 5th level, then he's still a 2nd level (round down) - so he should only have 2 HD and 4 evolutions, etc.


Actually, can you summon the new elementals? On that link provided, they have linked only the basic 4 elementals - has there been a ruling/something that (by RAW or RAI) says you can expand that listing?


Vendle wrote:
And that's why summoners with flying mounts take Feather Fall.

'And that's why you always leave a note'

Plus, i'm no syentist here, but put me way up high, and you way down low, and we both shoot at each other, and I think I'll win that contest every time. I'll just fly up past your maximum distance and still pepper you (assuming the DM is a syentist and takes all that syence into account).

Or at least I'm pretty sure you won't win - we could both just run out of arrows.

Though I guess you'd have all my arrows on the ground and yours that fell back to the ground, so there is that.


gnomersy wrote:
Attrition wrote:

Flight at first level and just summon eagles. From 200 feet in the sky. Each combat. Rinse and repeat.

Flight just gives you so many movement advantages that early-level monsters and characters can't overcome.

Except you can't use summons with the Eidolon out so fly 200 feet in the sky and do nothing each combat?

Was thinking Master Summoner, but fair enough - I'd still think shooting a bow from that height with basically no way of taking damage yourself is kinda broken :)


gnomersy wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:

Eidolon w/(functional) wings = unlimited fly spell for small summoner; that's why it's not available until 5th level.

As for unlimited flight ... so? I mean really assuming you got it at level 1 you have 3 points 2 for fly and 1 for Mount you are now flying with your eidolon who is extremely fragile with a low AC (somewhere around 12) low hp (around 6) and you are also fragile.

Now if you could rain destruction down on the enemy that might be an issue but the summoner spell list doesn't include destructive raining and they have so few spells per day that you shouldn't really worry about that which means they're pretty much just floating around and maybe plinking away with a bow but if they run into anyone else with a bow they just kill the eidolon and watch the summoner fall to his death.

Flight at first level and just summon eagles. From 200 feet in the sky. Each combat. Rinse and repeat.

Flight just gives you so many movement advantages that early-level monsters and characters can't overcome.


Attrition wrote:
Zephyre Al'dran wrote:

Give it guns? A 4 armed eidolon could wield 2 muskets after using a wand of reloading hands, which you can use on him would give him 3 rounds of 1d12 + point blank +deadly aim withing forty feet?

Okay, yeah, I know I'm reaching here, but it would be kinda cool to see...

But I like where you're thinking :)

So how would you optimize a 1/2 level Eidolon with guns, making him actually useful for the (double level) party?

I'm assuming you'd need EWP Firearms and Multiweapon Proficiency as feats, with a third feat at 12th level (it'll be 6th)

So at 12th level (it at 6th), you have:

3 feats: (Gunsmithing, EWP - Firearms, Multiweapon Fighting)
9 evolutions: Biped (w/ arms, free), 4 X arms, 1 X (tentacle?)

Your BAB is +5, Dex Mod +2

So 10 arms, (1 tentacle?)

That could be 5 x 1d10 touch attack at +5 (you get a -2 from the multi)

or, 10 x 1d8 touch attack at +5. Tentacle is for reloading/extra attack?

Stupidly expensive trying to buy/repair all those guns, plus the ammo costs, true, but damn would that be funny as hell :)


Meophist wrote:
cranewings wrote:
Ray of Enfeeblement is an awesome spell. I love pooping on 7 strength Wizards with it so that they can't hold up their wands. There is nothing better than a metamagic enhanced ray of enfeeblement followed by a quickened R.O.E. enhanced with a metamagic rod, on the same turn, against your crappy 7 strength elven archmage. Yelling "Sit Down! Sit Down Expletive!" just adds to the fun.
This doesn't seem to work. Ray of Enfeeblement applies a Strength penalty to the target, which doesn't stack with itself and can't cause the target to go unconscious. Additionally, the penalty doesn't seem to do anything to the target's carry weight capacity, so using it against an enemy wizard doesn't really seem to be all that useful.

Um, why wouldn't the penalty affect the carrying capacity? (obv. agree on the non-stacking) - but a 1 (lowest it can go) still would have problems with encumbrance, I would think.


I guess the big question/interpretation is whether or not the Imp Servitor is considered a familiar or not.

I would think that the line "grants and possesses all the benefits and abilities of a 1st-level wizard’s familiar" would imply that it does, only with the limitation that it does not advance in abilities.

(And Blackbloodtroll - I don't see any reason you can't acquire this in addition to a familiar you already have.)


Well, first, it says "bind to yourself", so it is binding To You, not you to it.

Secondly, the wording states "grants and possesses all the benefits and abilities of a 1st-level wizard’s familiar", and I'd say that a benefit of the familiar is the "ability to acquire a new familiar" (though this sounds kinda rule-lawyering to me one way, and then makes sense another - I'm kinda new to this game system and its quirks).

As for the level requirement, it is separate from your familiar's level or potential level - all that is determined is whether you have X levels of Arcane spellcasting (for the appropriate familiar).

(And Blackbloodtroll - I would assume it would be in addition. As for Boon Companion, it would then calculate the abilities of the imp as a 5th-level (1+4) wizard’s familiar. No worries about it being a higher level than your character level since you receive the imp at 9th level.)


I asked this in another post, but do you think the Feat: Noble Scion (Thrune) allow a player to then take Feat: Improved Familiar?


Out of curiosity, when do/must/can can you actually take this feat?

It says: Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).

So, if you have a familiar/ability to acquire a familiar at first level, could you technically take this feat at 3rd level, and hold off enacting it until a later level?

My logic is that, at any time once you have a familiar/ability to acquire a familiar, you then have the ability to kill/dismiss that familiar, and thus you have the "ability to acquire a new familiar".

For the sufficiently high level, since the lowest is third, it seems that you could take this from third on.

Or, do you have to kill/dismiss your familiar, then take this feat, and only are able to take whatever familiar your level is "locked" into?

Kinda confused by its wording ;)


Quick question - does Feat: Noble Scion (Thrune) allow a player to then take Feat: Improved Familiar? (relevant text below)

Thanks for any help!

Noble Scion (Local)

You are a member of a proud Chelaxian noble family.

Prerequisites: Cheliax affinity, member of Chelish noble house.

Benefit: You gain benefits based on the noble house to which you belong.

Thrune: You gain Infernal as a bonus language. In addition, at 9th level you may bind to yourself an imp servitor in a ritual that takes 7 days. Your imp servitor grants and possesses all the benefits and abilities of a 1st-level wizard’s familiar.

Improved Familiar

This feat allows you to acquire a powerful familiar, but only when you could normally acquire a new familiar.

Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below)


Zephyre Al'dran wrote:

Give it guns? A 4 armed eidolon could wield 2 muskets after using a wand of reloading hands, which you can use on him would give him 3 rounds of 1d12 + point blank +deadly aim withing forty feet?

Okay, yeah, I know I'm reaching here, but it would be kinda cool to see...

But I like where you're thinking :)


Really can't find a definitive answer on this one. Seems like most threads end up on the 'Yes' side, with the obvious RAW limitation of hands being necessary to wield weapons ("Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient.")

If anyone has a ruling or link on this, much appreciated!


blahpers wrote:

UMD. Give it a wand of summon nature's ally (n). : D

Too bad you can't give the eidolon bard levels. It'd fit really well.

True, bard levels would be nice. As for UMD, it probably is the best way to go, but I'm trying to see what other possible choices there are besides UMD.


ShadowcatX wrote:
You'll spend tons of money for very little return and even then its not being any more relevant in combat than a familiar. (And how is your route any different from the UMD route, other than requiring attack rolls rather than skill rolls?)

Well, I was figuring that a MM wand at 9th level is 123 gp/charge, and hits for an average of 17.5 damage (with the benefit of range).

My character would be throwing 8 vials at +4 to hit, probably avg. touch attack of 10 AC, so a 75% hit rate, for an 18 DPS, at 80 gp a round (charge). Plus splash damage, plus possible continuing damage, and the different damage types possible.

Seems like something to consider at least. I just don't know if there are any rules I am missing or anything that could make this build stronger.


Here's what I was thinking:

Let's just use when I'm 10th level, it is fifth level w/

2 feats, 8 evolutions, +2 Str/Dex

Would it be viable to make it a Splash Weapon master?

Biped, arms (free) 3x arms (6 evo.)

Then either 2 evo for flying, or another set of arms

Feats of Multiweapon Fighting and Splash Weapon Mastery

So you'd have a BAB of +4, a DEX bonus of +2, and 8 (possibly 10) touch attacks at +4 to hit, with range of 20 and -1 to hit for each increment.

Assume a magic item of holding w/ quiver properties, and flasks of acid, alkali, alchemist fire, liquid ice, itching powder, sneezing powder, and tanglefoot bags. Use Craft (alchemy) to defray the costs, which would obviously be relevant.

Is there anything wrong with this build? I'm not great on the rules yet, so advice is welcome.

(And, as far as using it as a scout or skill monkey, I get and am ok with the concept, but trying to see if I can keep it relevant in combat.)


Hi and thanks! Was probably just going to end up turning my (1/2 of my level ) Eidolon into a skilldolon like everyone else, but was wondering if there was any way to actually keep it viable and useful during combat?

By this, I don't mean via the UMD skill - something else, either combat melee or missile oriented.

Kinda new to the system, so any suggestions appreciated!


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Thalin wrote:
If there's one thing the Internet is good for, it's good old fashioned pointless arguments :).

I disagree!


Basically, does Augment Summoning effect other spells that have summon in their spell descriptions?? And if so, how would you rule the "each creature" portion when dealing with a swarm?

Feat = Augment Summoning
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.

Subschool Description:
Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.

Summon Monster I

School conjuration (summoning) [see text]; Level antipaladin 1, bard 1, cleric/oracle 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1, witch 1

Mount

School conjuration (summoning); Level magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1, witch 1

Summon Swarm

School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 2, druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2, witch 2


Maybe this has been discussed in another thread, but it seems that movement is such a HUGE factor in the game, and taking a 10ft penalty for -1RP seems nowhere near worth it.

I understand for flavor, but realistically, I don't see this actually being used in the final product, when you're considering running the race "for real".

And maybe others have suggested, but I feel that a -2RP for slow movement is more viable and likely to be used, and also more reflective of the negative that the lack of movement is imparting upon the race.

Thoughts?


So with all said, do people think that using two feats is worth it, for the player, to acquire a familiar?

And then, to go on, is it worth it for the player to use three feats to get an improved familiar? (We're assuming Skill Focus/Eldritch Heritage/Improved Familiar as the feats necessary.)

And finally, if the initial three are worth it for the player, are there any other feats that relate to the familiar that are worth taking?


Diego Rossi wrote:


Eidolon and extradimensional spaces: as long as there is a open path on the same plane between the summoner and the eidolon the rules about distance should apply. When the extradimensional space is closed, unless both the summoner and the eidolon are in it, there is no path on the same plane and the eidolon is outside the life link range, so he return to his home plane.

My thoughts exactly - but does the Eidolon then incur the 50%/75% hp damage? Here is the appropriate text:

In addition, the eidolon and the summoner must remain
within 100 feet of one another for the eidolon to remain at
full strength. If the eidolon is beyond 100 feet but closer
than 1,000 feet, its current and maximum hit point totals
are reduced by 50%. If the eidolon is more than 1,000 feet
away but closer than 10,000 feet, its current and maximum
hit point totals are reduced by 75%. If the eidolon is more
than 10,000 feet away, it is immediately returned to its
home plane.

I would assume since a Dismissal of some sort only gets rid of the Eidolon, and doesn't seem to damage w/ the 50%/75% part, then if it jumps into a Haversack it would only be returned home, not damaged in the process. But I don't know for sure...


Hey all - trust me, I looked through all the history, but still didn't get a definitive answer to this 'combo'. Doesn't seem really broken, but definitely useful and something to consider. I'm starting a new campaign, new to this system, and just one of the questions that I came up with.

So the question is, if I have the Magical Lineage trait, and apply the Meta-magic feat Merciful to a 1st level damaging spell, what exactly happens? Is it now considered a 0-level slot spell, and thus able to be cast unlimited?

On a different note, and since I have the game-masters here, can a quadruped Eidolon use wands/thieves' tools in its 'paws', thus being able to employ the UMD and Disable Device skills? Could it read a scroll? I know I've seen bears use sticks to snag honey, so my thought is yes, but I couldn't find anything definite on the subject.

Also, if an Eidolon jumps into an extra-dimensional-space (let's say a Handy's Haversack), is it then returned to its home plane? Does it take any of the 50%/75% max hp damage?

And finally, is there any way to add a saving throw to a spell that doesn't have one? I'm looking at the Jinxed Spell Meta-magic feat, and would like to add it to certain spells, but many of them don't require saving throws (for example, Magic Missile). Is there any ruling that allows me to 'weaken' a spell and require a saving throw even if previously there wasn't one needed?

Hey - thanks for all your help!! Please use only official sources if you can.


Check out the Summoner's Handbook - couple good builds in there w/ some descriptions.


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First of all, media has portrayed both guys in different lights - there's not one way, either bad or good. So I've seen some with Zimmerman in an orange jumpsuit, others when he's in regular clothing, Trayvon with a closed smile, one that highlighted his gold-capped lower teeth - that's just the media being a!~@#+%s and trying to sell papers/page clicks.

As far as what happened, here's my take, which is probably pretty close, based on all the testimony that's been garnered.

Both guys are/were probably cool/decent guys. Trayvon lived the life of a teenager with some hiccups, Zimmerman was hoping he'd get into law enforcement somehow/eventually.

Zimmerman saw Trayvon, not as a race, but as a guy in his neighborhood that he didn't know, face hidden by his hoodie - and determined that was suspicious. He called it in (seemed he had a penchant for calling stuff in), and even though told he didn't have to follow, decided to.

Trayvon probably noticed someone was following him, ducked into cover (stealth check), and when he saw the guy going back to his SUV, confronted him.

Something like "Is there a problem? Well there is now" was tossed in there, and Trayvon punched Zimmerman, then started slamming his head into the ground.

My guess is Trayvon probably thought this guy wanted to jump him/steal/ who knows, and figured the safest play was to go head on. Would he have killed Zimmerman? I doubt it, giving his history. But I'm sure he wanted to teach this guy a lesson about following him. There is however the possibility that he saw that Zimmerman was strapped and felt that something more definite was in order.

Zimmerman meanwhile is getting his head slammed into the ground/road, has a bloody nose, is probably dazed and confused as hell, and goes to pure survival mode, pulls the gun out and fires a single shot. Pushes Trayvon off of him, stands up trying to figure out what happens, nudging the body some and realizing what has actually happened.

Note that several witnesses have come forth, hearing and witnessing the commotion, and police were on their way. They show up, check the injuries Zimmerman has, make note of it, and have medical personnel clean him up. They then cuff Zimmerman for questioning, and take him in. Trayvon's body is handled as is the norm for a homicide.

In the video from the garage/entrance to the police station (it's being bandied around everywhere), Zimmerman seems undamaged. Remember that he was cleaned up by the medical personnel on scene, and a little bit of time has passed. He gets questioned/procedured, and gets checked out the next day at a hospital.

Now with a legal overview - and remember I ain't no lawyer :) But don't listen to anyone talking about the "Stand Your Ground" - that really doesn't apply here. That was a statute mainly created to help homeowners protect their possessions after the hurricanes swept through Florida. Its intent was to allow people to defend their home or car from an attacker (aka armed looter), without having to consider the option of retreat. Many people believe it still is a solid statute, and a necessary one for the protection of family/household.

But this is more of a defense - self defense at that. So what Zimmerman will need to do is convince a jury that there was a reasonable belief that his life was in jeopardy, and that the only choice was to kill or be killed. It's hard to do that when you define someone as a kid with a pack of skittles, easier if you define him as someone beating your head against the ground with no end in sight. Trayvon was definitely the first, but who knows if circumstances had turned him into the second.

And this is all assuming that the incident is taken to a judicial venue. It is quite possible that, despite all the public outcry, officials will decide that this is a definite case of self-defense and decline to prosecute.

My guess is that the officials will side with caution and allow a jury to interpret the facts. Then I would expect Zimmerman will take a lesser plea, and probably relocate far away.

TLDR? Probably two decent guys got in a fight, and two lives were destroyed by it.