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Just to be clear. Since the language in the Guide says characters have access to all common spells via tutors at the Grand Lodge, all one has to do to add them to a spell book or repertoire is, what? Be of high enough level to cast the spell and pay the appropriate cost? Or do the Learn a Spell rolls need to be made in front of a PFS GM?
Does it work on mobile phones? This looks pretty great. Are there any plans for a version using Excel for Macintosh?
I'm sorry that I don't have anything productive to add to the question at hand, but I just want to say I love the title of this thread. It seems like it should be an early EP from Factory records by Joy Division or the Durutti Column.
If my response seems ungentle to you, please know that was not the intent. Written comments can be interpreted a number of ways, I was just trying to understand and answer your questions. I hope you will view my words in that light. Thank you, sincerely!
According to Table 11-3: Scroll Statistics at p. 565, which compares spell level to item level, there's no such thing as a second level scroll, hah!I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously there are scrolls with second level spells, but since a second level spell is something that becomes available to a character only upon reaching third level, scrolls and other items granting access to second level spells and effects are normally third level items, and so on for higher level spells. You may be confused between spell level and character level. Not at all, heh. I just think the number of different ways the word "level" is used in these games is hilarious. It's something that has sometimes mystified but generally amused me since 1983 or so. You folks really didn't take that bit about being gentle if there was an answer I'd overlooked at all seriously, did you? Peace to all!
Okay, I see where you're coming from. But where's the actual written rules support for that? My immediate reaction is that the notion you've reported suggests that if all 1st level scrolls depend on the same formula, then, by extension, all light armors depend on the same formula, all martial weapons, all of any craft-able family of items sharing a trait you can name. Additionally, the example provided under the "Items with Multiple Types" header at pp. 293-294 suggests to me that formulas are way more specific than what you're suggesting, don't you think? as for where to find those formulas, they should be the exact same as any other, equal level, formula. Well, that's just the thing, isn't it? What is the "exact same?" The only references I can find anywhere in the CRB regarding formula sources for anything beyond the common items in Chapter 6 are to the "free" ones you get in a few of the Crafting related skill feats. Edited to Add: Hilariously, the free formulas that are earned by taking the Magical Item Crafting feat are for second level or lower items, so they're of limited use for scrolls anyway. According to Table 11-3: Scroll Statistics at p. 565, which compares spell level to item level, there's no such thing as a second level scroll, hah!
My apologies to the ghost of Herman Melville. Your thoughts and opinions about crafting scrolls are humbly solicited. Unless, of course, as the man said (over and over!), you “prefer not to.” An astonishing amount of overthinking about Crafting scrolls: I’ve been trying to understand what’s involved in scribing a scroll in Pathfinder Second Edition according to the rules and information found in the Second Edition Core Rulebook. This post codifies what I believe to be all the information provided in that book about the subject at hand. It is structured as a set of questions, the rules I believe address that question, and my suppositions or tentative answers to those questions. Following, I sum up with my opinions about scribing scrolls. Please note: Because of the complexity of both my suppositions and my general “findings,” it is my hope that I am wrong about some or all of this—even to the point to hoping that one or more responders simply say something along the lines of, “You’ve neglected to take into account the third paragraph on page 681 of the CRB,” or something along those lines. If that’s true, please be gentle![b][I] All page numbers are references to the [I]Core Rulebook. So, here we go. — [b]Question #1: Do the rules and other information suggest that the scribing of scrolls is expected to be a common and relatively simple downtown activity? Supporting rules and information: In the general description of the Sorcerer class at p. 191, the first sentence in the “In downtime…” paragraph reads: “You craft magic items or scribe scrolls.” In the general description of the Wizard class at p. 203, in the “While exploring…” paragraph says that wizards “probably have a scroll” to overcome obstacles. Similar to the Sorcerer entry, the “In downtime…” paragraph for Wizards reads: “You learn new spells, craft magic items, or scribe scrolls for your party…” Somewhat less germane, but suggestive; the “Crafting a Scroll” information at p. 565 begins with this sentence: “The process to Craft a scroll is much like that to Craft any other magic item.” Supposition: The scribing (or “Crafting”) of scrolls is meant to be a relatively straightforward and common activity. — Question #2: Where and what are the rules for Crafting a scroll? Supporting rules and information: Crafting (skill) at pp. 243-245 in Chapter 4, Skills; Magical Crafting at p. 263in Chapter 5, Feats; Magical Items and Formulas at p. 293 in Chapter 6, Equipment; Level-Based DCs at p. 503 in Chapter 10, Game Mastering; Craft at p. 504 (Chapter 10); Craft Requirements at p.535 in Chapter 11, Crafting and Treasure; Crafting a Scroll and Sample Scrolls at p. 565 (Chapter 11); and possibly other relevant rules I’ve missed. Supposition: The complete rules for Crafting a scroll are not in one place, but are spread across at least five chapters throughout the Core Rulebook. This lends lack of clarity. — Question #3: Is a formula necessary for the Crafting of a scroll, as it is for all other crafted items, including magic items? How much does such a formula cost? Supporting rules and information: Magical items, including scrolls, require a formula for their Crafting, just as mundane items do according to the information under Items With Multiple Types at pp. 293-294, which uses bags of holding as the example for required formulas. Supposition: A formula is required to Craft a scroll, and the price for the formula is to be found by comparing Table 6-13: Formulas (p. 293) and Table 11-3: Scroll Statistics (p. 565). For example, the formula for a 3rd level spell compares its level (5, per Table 11-3) and the price for a formula of a particular level per Table 6-13, yielding a price of 8 gp. Note well, the price of the formula necessary for Crafting a spell scroll is independent of and different from the price for the actual scroll, if such a scroll was even found available for sale. In this example, for instance, the price of purchasing a scroll of a level 3 spell is 30 gp, compared to the 8 gp for the formula for the same scroll. Despite the example above using a 3rd level spell, the rules support throughout the CRB only extends to 1st level spells, since they are the only ones listed as common items in the Equipment chapter. The price for a 1st level spell’s formula is 1 gp (p. 293). — Question #4: What is the specific process for Crafting a scroll and what are the material and monetary requirements to do so? Supporting rules and information: The most basic rules for Crafting an item are covered in four bullet points at page 244. In sum, the requirements listed, understood through the prism of scroll scribing, are these: (1) the item must be the Crafters item or lower (levels of scrolls are in Table 11-3 Scroll Statistics at p. 565); (2) the Crafter must possess the formula for the item (formulas for common first level scrolls are, by implication, available in the same manner as any other common item in Chapter 6—see Table 6-12: Magical Gear and the Formulas information with supporting table at p. 293; (3) the Crafter must have an appropriate set of tools and a space to work—the 1 gp Writing Set described at p. 292 specifically mentions scroll scribing; presumably any place where writing and casting can be safely done will do as a scribing “workshop,” and: (4) raw materials worth at least half the item’s price (though this is a little misleading). Prices for scrolls of all levels are to be found in Table 11-3 at p. 565. Crafting an item takes 4 days, at which point a Crafting check is made against a DC determined by the GM (note that this is a little loosey-goosey for purposes of organized play). Guidance for setting DCs is at pp. 503-504 in the Game Mastering chapter, with information specifically covering Crafting to be found on p. 504. As consumables, scrolls can be scribed in batches of four with one Crafting check to determine success for all four. Four castings of the spell and whatever constitutes the material costs (special inks and papers, presumably, plus any specific costs for components listed in the given spell’s description). There are additional rules on how much needs to be spent of the 4 gp for a common first level scroll that mostly adjust the price down (or takes the full amount to finish the crafting immediately). Supposition: The rules for crafting are much better suited for common items and non-consumable magic items than they are for scrolls (and presumably potions and other magic consumables). — Question #5: Where and what are the rules for Crafting a scroll of at level higher than 1st? Supporting rules and information/supposition; The rules remain the same except for progressions in Crafting costs and difficulty classes. However, there is no information about how to gain access to formulas for higher level scrolls anywhere I can find in the CRB. — Question #6: What is the minimum character level at which a character may Craft a scroll? Supporting rules and information: The crafting rules at page 244 state that characters need “the Magical Crafting skill feat to to create magic items…” Magical Crafting is a 2nd level skill feat found at page 263. It has the General and Skill traits (the associated skill is Crafting). The feat has a prerequisite of expert level training in Crafting. In addition to enabling the Crafting of magic items (like scrolls) and a character taking the feat gains four formulas for common magic items of 2nd level or lower. The key thing here is that a character must be expert at Crafting. As near as I have been able to determine, there is no way for any spellcaster to meet the prerequisite before 3rd level. Assuming a spellcasting character takes training in Crafting at 1st level during character creation, or at 2nd level when when they receive their first Skill feat, the earliest that they can achieve expert level with the skill increase at 3rd level. Supposition: The minimum level a spellcasting character can Craft a scroll (or any other magic item) is 3rd level. — Final Thoughts I believe that the rules for scribing/Crafting spells are too diffuse and insufficiently clear. In the case of Wizards, I believe having a given spell in one’s spell book should be considered as having that spell’s formula. In the case of Sorcerers, I believe that having a given spell in one’s repertoire should be considered as having that spell’s formula. I don’t know enough about the other spell casting classes to have an informed opinion. I believe there should be rules support by which 1st level characters capable of the Cast a Spell activity may scribe/Craft scrolls. My beliefs don’t count for much, and I will of course follow the rules as I understand them, even if they do seem to be kind of unwieldy.
For the purposes of using the Cast a Spell activity to cast a spell from a scroll, the rules dictate that the spell must be on the caster’s list. What exactly constitutes “your list” in this context, and where are the relevant and clarifying rules? Does the “your list” language mean any wizard can cast any spell from a scroll, so long as it’s on the arcane spell lists? Surely not, as that would throw spell levels right out the window. Or are there further limitations? As I imagine there’d have to be. Does “your list” only include spells you would be able to cast yourself (so, only first level spells for my exemplary wizard)? Is it even more granular than that—you can only cast spells in your “repertoire” (a word I find has somewhat slippery usage in the CRB), which might mean first level sorcerers could only cast a couple of spells from scrolls. Obviously that doesn’t seem right. I also have questions about exactly how scribing scrolls works, the apparent tradition-neutral nature of spells scribed on scrolls, and whether or not you can learn spells from found scrolls (for wizard's that would be transcribing to spell books, I guess) but I’ll save all those for another post. (I think I just about have a handle on scribing/Crafting, though I'm hoping I'm wrong about a couple of things). Cheers!
Hello! It's been a minute! I just recently picked up the Pathfinder Second Edition line of products (well, the rulebooks and the Age of Lost Omens line) and have been merrily making my way through them. I used to be a quite active organized play participant and I'm looking to get back into that (online, of course, in these days), but find myself a bit bamboozled about a couple of things. I was going to ask about finding games, because the Events tab in the Organized Play dropdown doesn't bring much up. But then I remembered Warhorn, and that seems to be the place to check. Now I just need to master D20 and Discord, I guess. I'm still a bit confused about getting started from a character generation and campaign tracking point of view, however. Is there an actual Guide to Organized Play available as a pdf? I've followed links here to a few webpages that I suppose all add up together to what I need, but it seems like I'm probably missing something somewhere. Anyway, I'm excited to be back, and look forward to exploring, reporting, and cooperating!
Well, I wrote GM Zimmer a PM. Hoping against hope there's a simple explanation and that all's well and this is just a delay, however small the chances of that are.No response yet, eh Alys? Afraid not.
Well, I wrote GM Zimmer a PM. Hoping against hope there's a simple explanation and that all's well and this is just a delay, however small the chances of that are.
Alas, this isn't looking very good, is it?
Hope all's well with everybody.
Sorry I took so long responding to the last post. I was at the Winter Residency for my low-res MFA program and was swamped with work. But things are back to normal now and I should be up for posting as frequently as might be required.
Alys casts her eyes hungrily over the bookseller's wares, hoping to spot volumes of history she hasn't already read. A good browse of the stall would take quite some time, she realizes, and that might mean missing the chance to introduce herself to this local expert on the ruin she's come to explore. "Master Quink," Alys says, her voice high and pure as a reed pipe compared to those of the humans bargaining around her. "Master Quink, if I may be so bold. I am Alys Kindletrick, late of Whistledown. I'm told you are the man to bring any questions about Old Light."
Hey-o. Just checking in.
Alys holds out her tiny hand to be engulfed by the captain's. "Perfectly understandable!" she says. "And I'll make it a point to try Master Jargie's food come noontime. Thank you for the safe voyage!" Ever a light traveler, Alys steps onto the board that's been run across to the dock and picks her way daintily across it, not burdened by anything but the pouch at her belt and the dozing white weasel wrapped around her neck like a stole. So here I am, she thinks. Now to see what the locals know about this Old Light!
Excited and grateful to be chosen! Looking forward to the game!
The level of interest in this game is extraordinary, and heartwarming. Best of luck to all!
Presenting Alys Kindletrick! Character sheet info is in her profile. Background: Alys Kindletrick was born just over half a century ago in the gnomish town of Whistledown on the western shore of Varisia's Lake Syrantula, where the Yondabakari River forms. From an early age, she was fascinated—overly fascinated even some gnome elders said—with two things, magic and history.
These two pursuits dovetailed nicely into her seeking apprenticeship with one of the town's human residents, a retired adventuring wizard named Talia Sortiz. This stern Chelish woman had spent much of her career exploring the ancient Thassilonian ruins that dot Varisia, and she made the study of that ancient empire as much a part of the ad hoc curriculum she and Alys developed together as the learning of wizardly magic. Their shared passion for the subject was such that Alys had been serving as Talia's apprentice for almost a decade before either of them noticed that Alys had not learned to cast so much as a cantrip. There followed an anguished period of testing and experimenting, which eventually proved to neither woman's satisfaction that Alys had no wizardly aptitude whatsoever. Alys, always excitable and frenetic even when bent over the outsized tomes of ancient lore Talia lent her, was heartbroken. Pitying her, Talia allowed her to stay on to continue her studies of history and the Thassilonian language, and it was on a rainy autumn afternoon that the wizard observed Alys absent-mindedly gesturing over a particularly dense volume in the poorly-lit room that served as the cottage's library. A bright light magically appeared, shining forth from the ink pot at Alys's elbow, and the gnome nodded at the improvement and contentedly settled back to her reading. Alys Kindletrick's fascination with magic was thus revealed as perfectly natural. She might never be a wizard, but she was a spellcaster, a sorceress in fact. Alys and Talia had, at some point in their relationship, set aside their mistress and apprentice roles in favor of being friends, so the wizard was able to overcome her instinctive distaste for the wild and untamed form of magic that now proved to be Alys's true vocation. With the help of a few treatises sent for from Korvosa, Talia was able to point Alys in the right direction, and the gnome quickly developed her sorcerous skills. Among the first things Alys learned to do was attract a familiar. This was no difficult task, because it simply meant magically expanding her already close relationship with her beloved pet, a snow white weasel named Lenore. Unusually lazy for a weasel, Lenore is usually to be found curled around Alys's neck like a living stole. Soon after the revelation of her sorcerous powers, Alys began to develop the wanderlust characteristic of her people. She had read every book to be found in Whistledown on the subject of ancient Thassilon, and grew anxious to see some of the remnants of Varisia's precursor civilization for herself. With the blessings of her kin and of her former mistress, Talia, Alys took passage on a boat heading downriver to Magnimar, the City of Monuments. Alys spent days wandering the city in amazement. The buildings, the crowds, and the enormity of the ancient ruined bridge known as the Irespan were all completely outside of her experience. She quickly came to realize that as much as there was to learn in the metropolis, she would be better off beginning her career as an itinerant scholar in a smaller place, where she would not be jostling elbows with dozens of others seekers after secrets. Browsing a volume in a bookstall that purported to list all of the historical ruins in western Varisia, Alys came across mention of the Old Light, a ruined lighthouse of ancient provenance that had been little studied despite the fact that it was only a day or two's journey from Magnimar. Taking ship once again, this time to sea, Alys has made the short journey up the coast, seeking knowledge and adventure. And so she finds herself in Sandpoint… |
