Adyton's page

To be absolutely clear, I think you're falling into the classical cognitive bias where you believe your experience is more universal than it is, and there is not a big market for more SF1, but what do I know?

No, at the beginning I believed, as soon as PRPG2 was released and played in playtest, that my experience and that of my group was only a reaction of old players not supporting change. But five years later I talked so much at RPG conventions, read so much on the subject, listened to so many videos on reviews, talked so much with salespeople in specialized stores, that I realized that this opinion was very spread worldwide (at least in Eurasia, the rest I don't know, but I suppose yes). Even on this forum I see that some people don't like the PRPG2 system.

Putting aside whether or not PF2 and SF2 are factually good or bad, the idea that Paizo is going to abandon SF2 after its release in 2025 in anything significantly less than 8 years is shockingly unrealistic. The idea that they would then switch gears to go back to SF1 is arguably even more unrealistic. Among the many factors at play is that the people working at Paizo don't seem to be interested in going backward, and it would take a massive organizational change that could sink the company to make it even remotely possible for them to do an about- face like you're imagining.

There is logic in what you say. I can't contradict you on that. And I understand the threat that WOTC/Hasbro poses to all things OGL. But without talking about PRPG1 or PRPG2, let's just focus on Starfinder 1E (which is still alive, Starfinder 2E is not here yet). That's what I meant :

Starfinder 1E's rules system managed to achieve the perfect balance between the simulationist side of old-school role-playing and the quick, intuitive learning side of recent games. It is the holy grail so sought after by role-players, game masters and role-playing game creators. With these rules PAIZO has something huge.

Much like the Savage Worlds System, the Starfinder 1E system could be adapted in many ways, just by changing the classes and a few details.

We could imagine a Medieval-Fantasy version of Starfinder (which many of us expected for Pathfinder 2E).
We can imagine a version to play in a contemporary fantasy universe (with vampires, aliens and superheroes).
We can easily imagine a version to play in a Cyberpunk universe (Shadowfinder?).
Or even a version that would take place at the beginning of the twentieth century with Lovecraft's monsters.
Or why not a version that takes place far in the future of an interplanetary universe permanently at war (Warhammer 40,000).
And all these versions would be compatible with each other, but also with Pathfinder 1E and the old resources of 3.5. Pure genius.

The Starfinder 1E rules even escape the OGL threat of WOTC/HASBRO.
Since the rules of Starfinder 1E are far enough away not to be threatened, while still being close enough to Pathfinder 1E and 3.5 for possible compatibility.

There was still so much to do and develop based on the Starfinder 1E rules system.
With Starfinder 1E's globally acclaimed rules system, PAIZO held the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Not to mention a large number of fans who are impatiently awaiting a Starfinder 1E video game on the same model as Kingmaker or Wrath of the Righteous (but which would not take up 150 GB of space like a certain Baldur's Gate 3).

And surprise PAIZO throws the goose that lays the golden eggs in the trash for a very criticized system of rules which is very, very far from being unanimous ?! Even if I understand and see that there are still diehard fans (but this was also the case for D&D 4).

There are decisions that should not be made under the influence of alcohol, fear or precipitation.

I'm so confused how you're writing this 5 years on from the release of Pathfinder 2e and the massive success its been.

Massive success? Just that ? We probably don't live on the same planet. From my window I see that PRPG2 sells much less well in stores than D&D 5. Which itself sold less well than PRPG1 in the past. The players and GMs I know who tried the adventure with PRPG2 came back to PRPG1 or switched to D&D 5. I'm already amazed that this system managed to last five years when I see the reviews in magazines and on the internet. Even video games based on PRPG2 rules are very, very far from having the notoriety of a Kingmaker or a Wrath of Rigtheous.

And that makes sense. Before with PRPG1 we had numbers on an adventurers sheet that we added to a d20 and it was quick and simple. Certainly the character sheet could take a long time to establish, but then any beginner could play. With PRPG2 we have words instead of numbers like "Untrained", "Trained", "Expert": we must then ask ourselves, depending on the level of the character, the class, its characteristics, what number this corresponds to before even rolling the dice 20. Too long, too pompous, not flexible enough.

As for classes... what can I say... Take the alchemist for example. Even at D&D5 they understood that an alchemist was not only a chemist but also a steampunk inventor (just look at Leonardo da Vinci and many others). In PRPG2 this class is strangely divided into two: the Alchemist and the Inventor. And where did the alchemist spells go in PRPG2? For example, you want to play a Tinkerer (alchemist) of PRPG1 with the rules of PRPG2, you must already multiclass twice: with an archetype of Inventor and another of Wizard (to recover spells and the possibility of summoning mechanical creatures). Since you have to wait until you have taken two class feats in a selected class before multiclassing again, which are only obtained every two levels (not forgetting the dedication feat), you will not be able to play your character until 'at level 14?!!!

Seriously, is this that you want for Starfinder?

Adyton wrote:

Totally agree with you. I would continue with the first edition. Still so much to test, to read, to play.

Rejoice, your game is now complete.

Oh, but I'm rejoice about the money I'll save while the second edition rules last. My game is not really complete. Given that the release of this second edition discourages the translation of half of the products which have still not yet translated.

You're going to patiently wait 8+ years for a third edition starfinder that has less than a snowball's chance in hell of being compatible with an edition that will have been 16 years old at that point?

I think you'd be WAY better off making your own branch of SF1 that meets your needs.

Loooool! Honestly, given the number of former players who will continue with the first edition I don't believe that the second edition will last all this time. Since this edition is a too inspired by D&D4 (which didn't last long), D&D5 (while being less good, offering a different alternative like PRPG1 rather than doing something identical was better) and the Forgotten Chronicles (but less well), there is no reason for it to last long. The second edition is the PAIZO's D&D4.

Man, people love a lost cause, huh.

Like, I get that the game you love is ending (at least as far as you're concerned), but firstly, Pathfinder 2e is so clearly derived from a lot of concepts first touched on in Starfinder 1e that it almost looks like a stealth playtest of early PF2e. Secondly, there is no way a hypothetical Starfinder 3e would be directly compatible with Starfinder 1e, that's just not how this stuff works.

The Starfinder rules were perfect as they were (or almost, combining the Climb and Swim skills in a single skill was not a great idea, implying that a fish can climb or that a chameleon is a swimming champion, I'm not talking about starships combat rules). And when you mess with something perfect, the result can only be catastrophic. And that is the case here. As the maxim goes: the best is the enemy of the good.

Moreover, when I was part of the PRPG2 testing groups, with my group we were clearly expecting a medieval-fantasy version of Starfinder 1. It was a cold shower.

As far as a lost cause is concerned, persisting with the rules of the second edition, despite the number of 3.5/Pathfinder 1 fans who are still very very numerous and making an outcry, is a lost cause (WOTC/Hasbro already made this mistake with D&D4, which led to the success of Pathfinder 1). I'm not angry no way. I'm just warning that the boat is heading towards the iceberg, when others imagine it to be unsinkable. I don't care, I'm already in my rescue cannot (with my group, with our PRPG1/3.5 books and all the fans who agree with me) and I'm patiently watching the disaster arrive from a pair of binoculars. My seniority allows me, I am already anticipating what happens next and I imagine what can happen next.

Frankly, after going through all the playtest pdfs, I am not interested in this new edition. Especially since it gives me Pathfinder 2E vibes with ancestries, class feats, the skill system, and other things that dumbed down the prior edition.

For those who are looking forward to this, I wish you the best of luck and fun in your games. I will be cheering you on, back here playing 1E.

Thank you for reading this and have a good day.

Totally agree with you. I would continue with the first edition. Still so much to test, to read, to play.

I hate and always have hated the second edition rules. This indigestible mix between rules from D&D5, D&D4 and Forgotten Chronicles. So I'm not really excited about this news. It's a shame because I love Pathfinder and Starfinder first edition. I will wait patiently for the third edition, hoping that it is compatible with the first.

I'd be surprised if a PF3 was on the way anytime soon, especially at a time when PF2 is seeing such massive success.

We certainly don't live on the same planet. Or was it an ironic joke?

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Starfinder Unchained! So, SF2 is not far behind :)

God, I hope not.

It would be catastrophic!

Ravien999 wrote:

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Starfinder Unchained! So, SF2 is not far behind :)

God, I hope not.

Why? A SF2 based on PF2 and fixing some of the biggest issues with the rules (lack of scaling cantrips, starship combat, Ivory Tower design) is quite a frequent call around here.

SF with the rules of PF2, horror, horror! This new system had some good ideas, but so many many more bad ones. These rules are indigestible.

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Ravien999 wrote:

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Starfinder Unchained! So, SF2 is not far behind :)

God, I hope not.

Why? A SF2 based on PF2 and fixing some of the biggest issues with the rules (lack of scaling cantrips, starship combat, Ivory Tower design) is quite a frequent call around here.

The same is true on the other side of the house. Not wanting a 2e because the design philosophies don't match up with the flavor.

I agree with that. With my group we attempted the Pathfinder second edition adventure. We couldn't even convert our PF1 characters to PF2 characters, no conversion was possible. Even an adaptation of character concepts was either unfeasible or only at very high levels.

This book will likely address a lot of the above, but still, give me PF2-based SF2, maybe with some small differences (Stamina system and ABP as default in SF2?). This will also let Paizo have one engine for both games, meaning designers no longer would have to switch between PF2 and SF1 thinking.

So a very very imperfect engine, rejected by a majority of fans of PF1 and 3.5 but compatible with two games, would it be better than two different engines, one of which having had the biggest success in thirty years in the Science Fiction/Cyberpunk RPG and compatible with Star Wars D20?

I'm rather waiting for a PF3/SF3 fully compatible with PF1 and SF1. As well as derived rules for playing in a contemporary universe. And a PC video game from Owlcat Games on Starfinder 1E. Until then I would keep my money, rather than investing in PF2 or SF2. I will probably not be back until PF3/SF3. Or Shadowfinder?

I could see Starfinder surviving a lot longer on patches than PF1 could. The system is a lot more stable than PF1 was.

While some of PF2's innovations are great, not all of them fit what Starfinder needs.

Not all of them fit what Pathfinder's needs either.

Personally, if I found out that SF 2E was definitely coming in 3 years I'd just be relieved to be secure in the knowledge that SF 1E would still be going until then.

Nighthorror888 wrote:

It's sad looking back at this. Enhanced seemed like such a glimmer of hope, like Paizo was fixing Starfinder and breathing new life into it, without needing to jump editions.

I offer a more optimistic perspective. We are doing both. This book will empower Starfinder First Edition play for years to come.

I love Starfinder 1E too and hope it lasts a long time thanks to the Starfinder Enhanced supplement, which I would probably buy.

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sidk?Starfinder-Second-Edition-is -Coming

so after all the "no SF2e" SF2e is now announced. And will be based on PF2e. So where does that put Starfinder Enhanced?

Wow! So soon after the release of the last class: the evolutionist? So soon after the last campaign? So soon after the last alien races released? So soon after Starfinder Enhanced? Commercially speaking, it's like shooting yourself in the foot. Especially if it's a Starfinder with PF2 rules.

Pathfinder 2e shares so much DNA with D&D 4e it's almost 4.5

So PF2 shares as much DNA as the worst-selling version of D&D in D&D history? Will PF2/SF2 share the same fate?

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened.

I am sad about this announcement, but I am not crying. Because for four years PF2 allowed me to make savings in my role-playing budget, to be able to concentrate my purchases on Starfinder 1E. So I'm smiling because the release of SF2 will allow me to save more while waiting for the release of PF3, SF3, Shadowfinder and the possible release of a Starfinder PC video game.

Androids have metabolisms of some sort, although it is a setting mystery how they digest anything, since they don't breathe in any chemicals to react with their food - they need to eat, and they regenerate slowly, just like a human does. Spoiler from Dead Suns 3. ** spoiler omitted **

It's probably nanites in their digestive system whose function is only to digest/transform food into an energy source. This is to allow an android to survive in a place without electricity. These same nanites allow them to “heal” like a human being would. The androids in Starfinder remind me of the androids from the "Alien" film series, but also the cylons from Battlestar Galactica who could easily pass for humans.

I still can't fathom how "retaining your soul"="Need to eat, breath, and sleep." One of these things is not like the other. These two things have never been tied to one another in any other monster or race.

I checked the pathfinder wiki to be sure, and intelligent undead in PF have always "retained a bit of their souls" and according to the SRD they don't need to eat, breath, or sleep. So I'm not sure where this idea is even coming from.

Is that the explanation in the PW book, or is that just everyone's head-canon for why? If that's the book explanation, I know exactly what the first thing I'm changing is.

The borais remind me of the dhampirs from Pathfinder 1, the half-undead Special Subtype from the Advanced Race Guide and the revenant from the films and comics "The Crow" : that is to say a half-undead more alive than dead. But due to the fact that a borai can be an ancient android and the fact that borais mostly live on Eox, a Borai should not need to breathe, nor fear radiation or other environmental effects.

I have a player who thinks he's playing an anroid borai, according to the concept of a very old android "roughly brought back to life" after being discovered in an old junkyard (inspired by Gunm, Battle Angel Alita). But according to the description a borai is supposed to breathe. Which does not fit either with an android (which does not breathe), nor with life on Eox (in the description it is said that a majority of Borai live on Eox, which has no more atmosphere and is irradiated). Isn't there something wrong with this? A Borai should not breathe and not suffer the normal environmental effects of vacuum. Right?

Shukkaro wrote:

Plus they're not really undead.

Yes they are. It says so right there in their Type.

(But I know what you mean.)

The borais remind me of the dhampirs from Pathfinder 1, the half-undead Special Subtype from the Advanced Race Guide and the revenant from the films and comics "The Crow" : that is to say a half-undead more alive than dead. But due to the fact that a borai can be an ancient android and the fact that borais mostly live on Eox, a Borai should not need to breathe, nor fear radiation or other environmental effects.

There are several cases in Pathfinder 1 where switching a race from Medium to Small poses no problem. Like the aasimars halflings (Blood of Angels) or the tieflings gnomes (Blood of the Fiends).

From the Boria description:

Quote:

Borais still need to eat, breathe, and sleep, just like any living creature, but they age at radically slowed rates, allowing them to live for a few additional centuries.

Honestly, Boria have a lot more in common with the living than the undead.

And weirdly, make Androids have to breath.

The borais remind me of the dhampirs from Pathfinder 1, the half-undead Special Subtype from the Advanced Race Guide and the revenant from the films and comics "The Crow" : that is to say a half-undead more alive than dead. But due to the fact that a borai can be an ancient android and the fact that borais mostly live on Eox, a Borai should not need to breathe, nor fear radiation or other environmental effects.

Wait. Who told you that borais don't breathe?

I have a player who thinks he's playing an anroid borai, according to the concept of a very old android "roughly brought back to life" after being discovered in an old junkyard (inspired by Gunm, Battle Angel Alita). But according to the description a borai is supposed to breathe. Which does not fit either with an android (which does not breathe), nor with life on Eox (in the description it is said that a majority of Borais live on Eox, which has no more atmosphere and is irradiated). Isn't there something wrong with this? A Borai should not breathe and not suffer the normal environmental effects of vacuum. Right?

I come back to this story of drinking dragon blood, in relation to this:
https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dragon's%20blood

This seems extremely cheap at all to me as a way to remove negative levels. Because the only other way to remove negative levels is the Restoration spell, which in addition to being a level 4 spell requires 1000 gp of component, with the same limit of 1 negative level per week. Hence my surprise! Where is the trap with the dragon blood?
https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Restoration

Haaaaa ok, I understand much better. Thanks.

I didn't realize that was a clarification on Familiar archetypes. Yes I understand that adding a Familiar archetype on an Improved Familiar might be a bit too much.

OK also for Improved Familiars like the Lyrakien Azata with the discovery tumor familiar. It seems logical to me.

Although one can imagine, for example, a Bramble Brewer (alchemist) with a Brownie. Or a Dragonblood Chymist (alchemist) with a Pseudodragon or Faerie Dragon. But I imagine that in this case the alchemist will be able to use the Eldritch Heritage feat (arcane) or the Familiar Bond feat.

thanks again.

Ok thank you very much, that clarifies a bit for me. But it also makes it more confusing.

For example it is strange for the tumor familiar : a rogue or a Blight Druid could have a Clockwork Familiar and not an Alchemist without an archetype? While the Clockwork Familiar would correspond more to an alchemist?

Unless the alchemist goes through the Eldritch Heritage (arcane) feat or the Familiar Bond feat? Strange that the alchemist should use feats when a discovery could fulfill this function. Would an alchemist have to make more sacrifices than a rogue or a Blight Druid to get a Clockwork Familiar?

On the other hand, a priori an alchemist could have a Ioun wyrd or a Petrifern as a tumor familiar?

According to some supplements, the Alchemist might have a homunculus but not a Clockwork Familiar? It's very, very strange. With the Promethean Disciple discovery an alchemist without an archetype could build himself a Shield Guardian Clockwork golem, but would be unable to build a familiar for himself ?

I don't quite understand this sentence.

In other cases, treat Improved Familiar as if it was an archetype to see if it stacks with other familiar options: since the two things it alters from a regular familiar are that it removes the ability to speak with animals of its kind and it prevents changing the creature type for non-animals, you couldn't make a familiar that changes the creature type of non-animals or alters or removes speak with animals of its kind an Improved Familiar.

Does this mean that it is possible to have an Improved Familiar as long as it is not a non-animal type? This means nothing since 99% of Improved Familiars have non-animal type. Similarly 90% of Improved Familiars do not speak with animals. Finally, familiars are not animals, since normally they all get the magical creature type. Some base familiars don't even have the animal type. Like vermin familiars, plant familiars. So I don't understand this sentence at all.

I have a question regarding the Improved Familiars feat for some characters with a familiar. For example to have a Clockwork Familiar for an alchemist concept without an archetype, or Coral Capuchin for a Pirate (rogue).

Is it possible to get it with the Tumor Familiar discovery?
With the Familiar Bond feat?
With the Eldritch Heritage feat (arcane)?
With the rogue talent Familiar?

When I read some supplements I feel like yes. But may be this may only apply to the Homunculus.

Starwars D20 works great with Starfinder. The Solarian makes a good Jedi. His Solar Manifestation can be a Jedi saber.

We can complete with the themes: ESPer, Dream Prophet. And/or the archetypes: Sage Arcane, Divine Champion, Phrenic Adept, Star Knight. Without forgetting the (chains of) Feats: Connection (limited, major...), Eldritch Lore, Stage Magic, Psychic Power, Technomantic Dabbler, Mystic Strike.

An old Jedi would be a Mystic (more mental than physical). A smuggler would be an Agent or an Envoy, or a Mechanic.

Yes I thought about it. That's why I also looked at what was possible to do "For the other levels" (third line of my message). In fact the puzzle is in three parts :

1 / Do at least one of my proposals work ?
2 / Otherwise, how is it possible to have a psychogun (or something that looks like it) ?
3 / What is the lowest level at which one can get there ?

I would like to create a character concept for Starfinder and it's Cobra (Cobra Space Adventure). I'm hesitant to figure out how to simulate his Psychogun with Starfinder rules. At level 1, for example, it seems impossible to me because of the laser weapons with big damages and the augmentations are too expensives.

For the other levels, I thought about Hideaway limb augmentation with Quickdraw. Should I add to that the price of Prosthetic Limb with Storage ? Or does Prosthetic Limb with Storage already include Hideaway limb with Quickdraw ?

At level 1, if I take a Laser rifle azimuth with the Glamered fusion, can I say that the weapon is transformed into Prosthetic Limb ? In this case would the weapon be considered grafted to the character's arm ? If so, no more Hideaway limb with Quickdraw.

Yes I know, the Laser rifle azimuth is handled with two hands, but Cobra always uses his Psychogun with both arms (he uses the other hand to stabilize the weapon).

I find it disturbing that the possibilities to have an arm-gun are very vague in the Starfinder's rules, contrary for example to Shadowrun.

Cobra also has some sort of web-shooters (like Spider-man) at his handles. But to simulate this in Starfinder is very expensive: the grappler alone costs the price of a Basic Enercycle (and you still have to buy a Needler pistol and a cable line of 100 ft.) !!!

But I go astray the subject, the question is especially how to simulate the psychocanon.