Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
I try to stick to this principle when designing PFRPG content by trying to restrict my references to the core rulebook, and NEVER make references to material from softcover books. Even though we're blessed to have the PRD and several wiki sites and PDFs with hyperlinks, it can still get really annoying to have to look up something in an obscure book.
elcoderdude |
My father spent many years in the military. But at the risk of being wildly unpopular, I'll say I've never fully understood this.
For a card like Defensive Stance, sure - you'd have no idea what to do otherwise. But for locations, villains and henchmen - if you don't have the right card, you can substitute another. It won't be the intended experience, but it's doable.
As it is, the principle creates a less rich experience for the vast majority of players, in order to solve a problem that might happen for a small minority.
ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 |
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While I understand the idea behind this principle, I've also seen it backfire. You have to be very certain your supplementary material is strong enough to stand on its own, because this principle means you don't get a chance to go back and enhance things with expansions later. We saw a lot of this with WotC 3.5 materials, where each sourcebook could contain new and exciting things for core PHB classes, but any new classes introduced had to sink or swim in their own books. That led to there being so many terrible 3.5 classes that could never see any future support to lift them up.
Mike Selinker Lone Shark Games |
Mike Selinker Lone Shark Games |
Arkos RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 |
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The Afghanistan Principle is not without its detractors or its problems. And obviously, there's a very popular roleplaying game that doesn't (and basically can't) follow it completely.
Even so, it's a design choice I absolutely appreciate in both board games and RPGs. And I'll have to remember it when I'm sorting out my PACG box for later adventures. Great post!
Jim Landon |
I'm definitely seeing the advantage for a lot of games though I must say the pathfinder card game doesn't seem like one of them.
Playing Descent Delve recently made me aware of the usefulness of this concept (or at least a similar-ish one).
For those unfamiliar, normally Descent requires the core box and then to play an expansion campaign it also requires that expansion box. Carrying two game boxes...pretty mellow.
Well the delve's a different story, there's an app which much like PACG it's about mixing up what we've already got, to quote the promotional material:
"Collect loot and gain skills as you advance through a collection of randomly selected stages. As you expand your Descent 2nd Edition collection, you unlock new maps, monsters, and boss fights—untold combinations of heroes, classes, monsters, stages, and loot await."
It's awesome, a bunch of people were begging for it....But the moment I started playing it I noticed a downside.
When playing this I'm stuck bringing my collection to every session. It's not a matter of we'll need this one expansion to play this stage tonight. I'm kind of stuck filling my trunk full of boxes.
This experience has converted me, I really do buy into the Afghanistan principle as a general rule but I don't see that it provides any utility to the Pathfinder card game. To me it seems like a base set and it's expansions ARE a single game in seven boxes. So much so that the base set is built to hold the rest of the campaign.
If it wasn't, if I was carrying around seven large boxes to play a single game, I'd be singing a different tune. But it's not like that, everything for the campaign goes into and stays in the one single box.
The game works as a campaign where I DO need the equipment I've acquired in the previous adventures to play the subsequent ones. So I'm really missing the advantage of trying to maintain this isolation on the location side of things when it isn't and blatantly shouldn't be present on the character building and story side of things. And isn't an issue on the transportation and setup side of things.
Vic Wertz Chief Technical Officer |
This experience has converted me, I really do buy into the Afghanistan principle as a general rule but I don't see that it provides any utility to the Pathfinder card game. To me it seems like a base set and it's expansions ARE a single game in seven boxes. So much so that the base set is built to hold the rest of the campaign....And isn't an issue on the transportation and setup side of things.
The Afghanistan Principle isn't about ease of transportation—it's about availability. Your game store hopefully carries all the Mummy's Mask Adventure Decks, but a military PX in a war zone might not be so well stocked. If all you can find is the MM Base Set and Adventure Deck 6, our use of the Afghanistan Principle means you've got yourself 15 very playable scenarios.
The game works as a campaign where I DO need the equipment I've acquired in the previous adventures to play the subsequent ones.
There's need and there's NEED. If I have that Base Set and AD6 combo, I can play through the Base Set as designed, then give some AD6 boons to my characters, check off a handful of feats, and move on to those higher level scenarios. It may not be exactly as intended, but it'll be close enough for fun. Which is to say, you don't NEED AD2–5 boons to play the game.
If we *didn't* use the Afghanistan Principle, though, and put Defensive Stance into MM4 (the first place it's actually used), then when you hit that AD6 scenario that NEEDS Defensive Stance—as in "you won't know what to do without it"—you won't be having much fun.
Mike Selinker Lone Shark Games |
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There's a side benefit on Defensive Stance especially: It allowed the designers of our organized play campaign Season of Plundered Tombs to debut its use in their second adventure. So our most invested players got a special experience that purchasers of the base set won't see in use till next month. The Principle may seem restrictive, but often it gives us options we wouldn't otherwise have.
Vic Wertz Chief Technical Officer |
The Afghanistan Principle is not without its detractors or its problems. And obviously, there's a very popular roleplaying game that doesn't (and basically can't) follow it completely.
Pathfinder RPG rulebooks do build on one another—for example, Ultimate Intrigue offers new archetypes for Bards, Druids, Rangers, and Rogues from the Core Rulebook; Alchemists, Cavaliers, and Inquisitors from the Advanced Player's Guide; Investigators, Skalds, and Swashbucklers from the Advanced Class Guide; Mesmerists and Spiritualists from Occult Adventures, and for its own Vigilante class, which in turn will be built on in future books. As ryric points out, a "fire and forget" approach on that sort of thing doesn't work very well.
But when it comes to RPG adventures, the Afghanistan Principle is a bit more workable. When we feature an NPC from an advanced class in the story, or a monster from a later bestiary, we'll give you a short stat block that has the basics so you can run the adventure without needing those rulebooks. (You won't have the details to use all of their capabilities, but again, there's need and there's NEED—even if you end up playing that vigilante NPC like he's a rogue, you'll still be having fun.)
All this is further mitigated by the fact that the mechanics from all of the books in the RPG line are online (and completely FREE!) in the PRD.
Vic Wertz Chief Technical Officer |
Jim Landon |
The Principle may seem restrictive, but often it gives us options we wouldn't otherwise have.
It only seems restrictive to me because you bring it up and have mentioned how you needed to be talked out of it for PACG. If you hadn't said anything I'd have remained completely ignorant on the subject.
Thank you guys for talking to us by the way, it is appreciated.
Mike Selinker Lone Shark Games |
It only seems restrictive to me because you bring it up and have mentioned how you needed to be talked out of it for PACG. If you hadn't said anything I'd have remained completely ignorant on the subject.
I needed to be talked out of it for the OP program. It remains firmly in place for the boxed games.
Shade325 |
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I've noted this principal (if not by name) since RotR and its always bugged me a little. I guess I'm a detractor. The game is designed to play from B to 6 in a particular order. If I'm in AP 3 I should have played through AP B, 1 & 2 and have those cards. Why not use them... especially if their appropriate and thematic. Instead those cards (locations, henchmen, villains, etc.) become worthless for the remainder of the campaign.
As for the argument about a store only having the core and AP 6 and getting 15 fun scenarios... I understand this but two things.
#1 - It isn't the intended game play. The ratio of boons and banes will be way off. You're either getting a short sword or a runechill hatchet without anything in the middle. Same goes for banes. Its either a zombie or a dragon nothing in between. Sure you can play and have fun but its not the designed intent and that version of AP 6 will probably be too easy by comparison.
#2 - In the comment by Vic he readily admits that the players will have to make some adjustments. They'll need to add some AP 6 cards and gain some feats in order to make AP 6 playable. They players in this situation are already house ruling the game to make it fun under the given circumstances. How hard would it be to house rule a location. (Well we don't have the Temple of God #1 but maybe we can use this Chapel of God #2.)
So I'm a detractor. I'd love to see locations, henchmen and villains from earlier APs used in later ones. It would be awesome to return to a location and have to deal with a villain a second time only now he's really more of a henchman for a greater villain. That adds great story to me.
(Note - Sorry I don't have my collection with me to look up specific card names.)
Scott Hall |
The Afghanistan Principle is not without its detractors or its problems. And obviously, there's a very popular roleplaying game that doesn't (and basically can't) follow it completely.
I didn't have a name for it, but I recall seeing this principle in FFG's Descent. One expansion introduces sustained orders? Well, only dungeons from that set would use them. Road to Legends would give the Overlord a choice of monsters to use, but would never have monsters from two different expansions in one choice.
At the time, I was annoyed- I'd paid for all the expansions, why didn't they integrate them better? Learning the other side of it, I'm more accepting of the choice.
Frencois |
Now an annoying frenchy would wonder whether it is now politically correct in the Deck-3-Shifting-Sands webpage to forget Afghanistan
This deck requires the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game: Mummy's Mask Base Set and Empty Graves Adventure Deck.
But luckily for us there is no annoying frenchy in this forum :-)