Kingmaker: Crowns of Flame and Sorrow

Game Master The Dread Pirate Hurley

Welcome everybody! This Discussion Thread will probably be as much a part of the game as the actual game thread (once that gets up and running). Aside from being the OOC break room, this is also where we'll hash out a lot of the scene-by-scene details and decide on where the story is headed.

I'll be posting relevant links and documents in the Campaign Description so that we'll have them on hand. Was the Google Doc with additional info helpful, or was the structure too difficult to use? I'm still trying to find the best tool for campaign documents like that, if anybody has recommendations for tools that have worked for them I'm all ears.

I need to go back through each of your backstories one more time in case I have any lingering questions, clarifications that should be made, or adjustments or alterations to fit the vision (or alterations to what I have already provided to fit your vision!)

With the recruitment done, I am informally stepping down from "GM" to something more like "first among equals". I see myself as sort of a director, but this is a shared venture, and I relinquish the authorial control typically reserved for GMs. I'll still be performing the regular duties of posting for the world and the NPCs, but once a given scene gets going you're all encouraged to take control and ownership as you feel led. In order to facilitate that, I'll post certain expectations and conditions for scenes and for NPCs here in our Writer's Room to make it easy for us to all stay on the same page. I'll reserve the right to make final decisions if we can't form a consensus on an issue should a clash of visions occur. This whole thing is a big experiment for me in trying a new approach to PbP, and maybe it won't work, but I'm excited that you've all decided to join me in trying it out!

Also, just a thing to be aware of, I tend to post and then make edits. So if you see me post something, just know that if it's been less than an hour since I posted it there's a non-zero chance that my post will have changed sometime after you've read and responded to it. I'm going to try very hard to make sure all my posts in the IC thread will be final before posting, but I make no such promises for the Writer's Room thread. This paragraph is already the second/third edit I've made to this post since making it XD

Some other stuff I've got to be upfront about - this is my first Pathfinder game in...probably a decade. I would have pitched this in a totally different system if I had thought I'd be able to attract attention with it. I have something of a disdain for the tactical combat board game that lives at the heart of D&D and Pathfinder, but I promise not to take that out on all of you. I'm going to do my best to run the battles in a fair and consistent manner, but I'm not here to "win" the fights. But if it ever comes across like I don't have a ton of respect for the mechanics of the system - well, it's because I don't! That's why I do things like give you all 900gp to start with so that you can have the equipment you need for your vision. The party was not selected with combat balance in mind - if it becomes apparent that the game has expectations that the party can't meet for whatever reason then we won't worry about those mechanics. By RAW young dragons don't have the ability to take human form, and I have knowingly ignored that with Chorazulanthus and Caelyndraxis. Because Plot, it's certainly possible to contrive a reason why they do have that ability in a unique fashion, but at this stage I'm not super worried about those details, and I'm totally fine with suspending the RAW to allow it.

I'm a big fan of Golarion as a setting, and I'm excited to play in it with all of you. That said, I transitioned away from Pathfinder around the time of the transition to 2e. For the purposes of this game, we're playing in a "clean slate" version of Golarion. Assume that none of the other Adventure Paths have happened, unless it becomes fun for us to include some details. At this stage, I didn't see anything in the character backstories that would imply a need to have had any of the other APs already happen, so for now I'm assuming they haven't. Kingmaker typically takes place in 4710; that seems like a fine starting year for me, and even if any of the other APs have/are happening, Golarion is a big place and sometimes it takes awhile for regional events like the re-emergence of Thassilon out in western Varisia to be noticed or have a major impact on a place like Brevoy which is at the far end of the continent away from it.

o7

Very excited to be part of this!

Hi there!

I often make edits after posting too. Sometimes I go back and read the last few posts of a thread again to make sure I didn't miss anything that got added after I saw it posted.

I don't mind if everyone calls my character "Zsofia" or even "Sofia", so that you don't have to copy and paste the special "ó" symbol. I'll probably try to be consistent about using it myself, but depending on how quickly I need to put a post together I might ignore it occasionally. I'll assume everyone's pronouncing it correctly unless anyone says otherwise. :)

I didn't mind the way the Google Doc was broken up into different files, though I generally prefer one complete document. It is certainly good information to have on hand!

Hi everyone! Very glad to be here!

The Google doc was good, if a bit overwhelming with the level of info. I think it could be formatted more simply; as long as you use headers it can auto-create a navigation menu.

GM when you are ready, could you mind attaching a gameplay thread? Even if we're not ready to start we can post in it and then delete that post; it will still register us as players and that way we can see the game in our campaign tab.

I agree having the Gameplay thread started is really useful!

Hi everyone! Thanks for selecting Trillium!

So I've never listened to the podcast or anything, but I binged the released episodes of The Mighty Nein last Sunday. I started sweating seeing how close I've come to inventing an alt-Jester with Trillium. It really is kinda freaky.

I've added the Gameplay thread, go ahead and delete after you've posted. Once everyone has done that, I will go ahead and remove my initial placeholder post as well.

A major thing we need to clear up for continuity before beginning is the framing of getting the party together. Standard Kingmaker has the party as members of an expedition with a charter by the Swordlords. Trillium, your backstory implies that you've got an Aldori friend with a charter. Zsofia, your backstory provides an alternate beginning entirely, with you having a separate but substantially similar starting point as you're acting to claim "ancestral lands" for yourself separate from the Swordlords. Now, if we had had a few more submissions and I thought I could manage it, it almost could have worked to have two parties initially competing, but that's not where we're at.

I'll leave it to the party to deliberate if you all want to go the standard Swordlords route or if we want to revamp it to follow Zsofia's lead and play as Surtovan allies instead. Personally, I think the latter option is enticing for a number of reasons. Remixing the plot is fun, and it creates opportunities for us down the line to have your neighbor to the north be a hostile Rostland instead of a friendly one. If we go that route, there will still be an Aldori-chartered NPC group doing some exploring as well. Additionally, it would shift the initial objective of the game away from clearing out bandits and taking down the Stag Lord as a precondition to establishing the kingdom to making it to Zsofia's seat of power, clearing it, and proving you can hold the territory.

@Jack Good idea about using headers in the Google Doc. I'll try reformatting it.

I'd been assuming that Zsofia has been sent by House Surtova to join the Swordlords' expedition, not to establish her own competing expedition. We could still do that if we don't want to change the established framing of the campaign: that is, we say Zsofia is here with the blessing of the king-regent, but she is not working for him directly. And likewise, the others might have been hired by the Swordlords, but they aren't necessarily working for them directly either.

It might be interesting in any case if just as Zsofia has obligations of gratitude to the Surtovas, someone else (maybe Trillium?) has obligations of gratitude to the Swordlords, and so there is some diplomatic tension once we establish a kingdom and begin having to deal with our northern neighbors. We might initially be unsure if we're all on the same team, even.

I should say that I really dislike actual inter-party conflict, where it feels like players are working against each other, so if we set up some of us as competing with each other I think we should establish as a group that we the players aren't actually working against each other, and while our characters may have conflicting secondary goals, our primary goal is cooperative. Our characters are making their own kingdom, and I think it should ultimately feel like it belongs to all of them. It's worth emphasizing that. :)

I do really like the idea of doing something different with Kingmaker, and if folks are game to change the framing, I am too. Another idea is we could split the group to start. Like, three (or four, or five) of us are from Restov and have a charter from the Swordlords, and the others have a charter from the king-regent, and we happen upon each other at Oleg's?

Rival expeditions is something that I remember being mentioned early on in the adventure path, but I don't think anything is ever done with it. Regardless of what we do with our characters, I definitely think there should be others out there who also have a charter from the Swordlords. I could even see the Surtovas hiring another group of explorers and pretending to be the Swordlords when they give them a charter, to muddy the political waters and make the Swordlords look bad.

I think Malylev's background describes him living in the Stolen Lands at the beginning of the campaign, right? Friends with Bokken? Some of us could be friends of Oleg's who have arrived to help with the bandits. Or maybe there's an elven delegation, since several of us are elves? Maybe there's a huge gathering of different groups with different agendas who all converge at Oleg's, a bit like the Fellowship of the Ring? ;)

I'm fine with either scenario. I don't know the standard plot in any real detail, so I wouldn't be bothered by running it largely as written. On the other hand, I also have no expectations for any particular things to happen so if something else happens instead I probably wouldn't know the difference.

Trillium is basically apolitical as her starting default. As far as she's concerned politics is ugly, boring, and in the end the people on all sides are essentially the same. Why get caught up in something that would only fracture her future potential client base?

Her background is even quite modular in all this. Trillium's background could be changed to occurring in New Stetven without needing any alteration.

It might be interesting in any case if just as Zsofia has obligations of gratitude to the Surtovas, someone else (maybe Trillium?) has obligations of gratitude to the Swordlords, and so there is some diplomatic tension once we establish a kingdom and begin having to deal with our northern neighbors. We might initially be unsure if we're all on the same team, even.

Trillium's background mentions her getting a charter from the Swordpact. But I don't see Trillium thinking that detail would make her beholden to the Swordpact. What she sees is a hot guy doing her a favor because she's a hot girl and they're sort of into each other. Maybe she owes that particular guy a little something, but that's the extent of it.

Trillium is just used to living in a world where she gets lots of attention and people like her. People will do things for her if she asks, or drops hints, or they think she'll like them more for it. That's just how her world is, and she doesn't think too much about how people around her are always sanding the sharp edges of life down so she can move about in comfort. It's callow, but Trillium is young and has never known things to not work that way for her.

Sure, she's working for the Swordpact and she'll do a good job for them. But it's because there is an agreement, not because of loyalty.

Hello, everyone! (I’ve dotted in and out in the Gameplay thread.)

It’s nice to see some old friends here, and new, I hope. :)

Just out of curiosity, GM, what systems might you have preferred to Pathfinder? I’m not particularly enamoured of the tokens on a map angle, and the numbers can get silly, but I do like the fiddliness of things, and I haven’t found a lighter system that works as well for me, yet, for that.

The Google Doc was fun, and though (like Jack said) the formatting could have been simpler, I thought it was fine as is. I’m happy with denser text, so something like putting the OOC and IC descriptions of the Brevic houses together would be fine (with the latter in italics, maybe?), for example. I did love the snippets from Madame Morrozi’s diaries, and am trying to decide if it would be a good or a bad thing if she and Tsia were able to meet. :)

I'd been assuming that Zsofia has been sent by House Surtova to join the Swordlords' expedition, not to establish her own competing expedition. We could still do that if we don't want to change the established framing of the campaign: that is, we say Zsofia is here with the blessing of the king-regent, but she is not working for him directly. And likewise, the others might have been hired by the Swordlords, but they aren't necessarily working for them directly either.

It might be interesting in any case if just as Zsofia has obligations of gratitude to the Surtovas, someone else (maybe Trillium?) has obligations of gratitude to the Swordlords, and so there is some diplomatic tension once we establish a kingdom and begin having to deal with our northern neighbors. We might initially be unsure if we're all on the same team, even.

As far as getting the party together goes, I like the idea of splitting the difference along the lines Zsófia’s suggesting: everyone’s got their own patron, but few of us are in a position to make a big play in their interests yet, or even be sure what those might be. (I’m not sure how close we’re meant to imagine House Dobós is to the Surtovas: enough to deal directly, but what keeps them together? Blood ties? Honour among pirates? Rank calculation and quid pro quo?) Even in our most optimistic forecast for the Surtova yahoos, we’re not imagining they can just step in and tell the swordlords, “No, our vassals are handling it / hold those lands. Knock it off.” That suggests rather interesting things about just how unstable finely balanced Brevoy is right now.

Malylev seems to be further removed from the messiest politics, at the moment, as the scion of families subject to a couple of the great houses (rather than a member of either Lebeda or Medvyed directly), and Ta Bayang’s backstory seems to suggest that their relationship with their adoptive mortal family is a bit tricky for the Medvyeds to use them for the purposes of faction: they seem to still be getting used to much more basic aspects of how the Second World works.

Jack, Trillium, and Tsia all have weak ties to Brevoy generally, whether to Rostland or Issia. They’re also very different sorts of elves, and I think only Tsia has a strong link to anything that we would call elven geopolitical interests, and those are to the canonically vague weirdos in Iobaria. (It would be very easy to add a layer of conspiracy if we wanted, even if only at the level of rumour. “Sure, she says they’re independent, and that her obligations to her liege won't compete with her word to the Prima, but what do we really know about her people? And there are those elf gates! Bet you Iadara’s calling all the shots.”)

Anyway, by the time any of the bigger players, and especially the Surtovas and the swordlords, think to take a serious look south at what “their” people are up to and use them (us!) against one another, we could be doing quite our own thing.

The Surtovas are too close to the Rogarvias for Tsia to think much at all of the idea of allying with them, but she’s an elf and a courtier, so playing the long game and going along with Zsófia for now until she sees the light (or Tsia decides Brevoy is hopeless and goes back home) is definitely a possibility if we want a more cynical campaign.

(I’m not sure how close we’re meant to imagine House Dobós is to the Surtovas: enough to deal directly, but what keeps them together? Blood ties? Honour among pirates? Rank calculation and quid pro quo?)

I can elaborate a bit on what I envisioned, but we can always change things to work better if there's a snag. Zsofia's father is descended from a distant cousin of Choral the Conquerer, who according to legend was a good friend to the king and was granted "all the lands of the Shrike river" by his royal relative. The Surtovas know who he is and consider him a sort of bannerman of House Surtova, but his titles aren't common knowledge because until recently the king-regent has been unwilling to show his hand in the game of the Stolen Lands, waiting instead for the Swordlords to make the first move. Since Zsofia's father can't live a life of luxury in the capital city, he's chosen instead to become a pirate on the Lake of Mist and Veils, reasoning that if he is caught the king-regent will help him disappear to avoid making his plan public. It is an uneasy relationship: both of them hold something over the other and they both push the boundaries to test what they can get away with. "Friendship" they call it.

So Zsofia didn't grow up with any titles; she has lived in Rostov as long as she can remember and her wealthy father has paid a priest of Shelyn for her education and room and board. When she decided she wanted to attend the Aldori academy, her father arranged for her to receive a barony. I imagine this involved asking the king-regent to approve it, but it's possible he just forged the necessary papers and the king-regent's seal. Anyway, now that Zsofia's father has told her about her inheritance and the king-regent has decided to send Zsofia on an expedition to thwart the Swordlords' plans, he has granted her the title for real. But since the title ultimately derives from Brevoy, Zsofia might only have it as long as she serves the Dragon Throne. So that will keep her loyal, the king-regent thinks. By doing this, he also keeps Zsofia's father happy, which in his mind will keep the pirate loyal to him as well.

Another wrench in the works is that I imagine at least the king-regent's sister is aware that Zsofia might be a very eligible match for her brother's hand if the new Baroness of the Narlmarches can manage to establish a kingdom in the Stolen Lands. Of course there's no reason for them to get formally engaged yet, but it is probably one of the Surtovas' plans that they can easily expand their kingdom through marriage. That is likely another reason why the king-regent is being so accommodating of her.

I've cleaned up the Google Doc a bit, still more to do but it's going to take a while to reformat the journal entries. Velimira is a fun character -- she's a vapid social climber who thinks she's two steps ahead but is usually more like three steps behind. In her own mind she's the greatest court gossip in the Inner Sea.

Regarding Brevoy's culture-
Given that the Inner Sea maps loosely onto the Mediterranean region of our own world, and taking into account the various influences that can be inferred from the text, I imagine Brevoy's flavor to be some mix of western Russia, waning Ottoman Empire, and Italy. That should be reflected in human names, when you do end up introducing new NPCs. Obviously that doesn't always apply the same way to non-human races who have their own culture. If it wasn't clear enough, there are tensions that run deep and will eventually erupt into a civil war when Rostland inevitably tries to regain their independence. I borrowed heavily from Redcelt's "Game of Thrones in Brevoy" notes here on the Paizo forums to flesh out the Houses, and any resemblance to ASOIAF is likely intentional. That being said, I must confess that I only read the first book and couldn't get through the second, and had much the same experience with the show.

Regarding ancestry that traces to Choral-
Choral the Conquerer was and is a red dragon in human form. Choral was said to have two red dragon allies, but in truth the two red dragons were him and his sister, Chorazulanthus and Caelyndraxis. This is a major secret and virtually nobody in Breovy knows this. Any rumors that have been swirling for the last 200+ years have little to no evidence to support them. Whether Choral's heir was his child with Myrna Surtova or if it was actually the child of Caelyndraxis is currently undecided, but any and all true blood relation that any of the descendants have to Choral is through that heir. After 10 years of sitting on the Dragonscale Throne, Choral and his sister left and were never seen again. The heir was at most 9 years old, so there was certainly some kind of Surtovan regency until the heir came of age at 15 and ascended the throne himself.

Regarding the intro setup-
We could definitely keep it as being chartered by the Swordlords if that's what's preferred. In that case, we might have something like a Gambit Pileup with a bunch of different factions inserting their own people into the Swordlords' play for the Stolen Lands. It would be a situation where the Swordlords are suspicious that it's happening but may or may not be able to prove it, but they also can't veto it without tipping their hand to Surtova. It's a game of "everybody knows what's happening and everybody is going to pretend it's not happening and nobody's going to say anything about it or acknowledge it." This positions the PC kingdom as being a linchpin to the whole barely-contained pressure cooker.

The party will be starting off as one single party together; I just don't have the bandwidth to run two separate parties and it avoids padding the early game too much. This game in particular is going to use most of the new game momentum on figuring out the setup and I want to be mindful of the nigh-inevitable slowdown after 2 weeks or a month, so I'm not a fan of creating more hurdles at the start.

@Tsia How old is Tsia? Elves have long lifespans and she grew up in Iobaria. It's possible she was alive and around when the human warlord Choral Rogarvia showed up out of nowhere and started assimilating multiple tribes under his banner only to disappear just as suddenly when he took his army across the Lake of Mists and Veils. Certainly the dragons noticed that he seemed to have the cooperation of two of their own number who might have been known (among dragons) to be young upstarts with too many schemes.

As for lighter games, I decamped from d20 stuff for Powered by the Apocalypse (PbtA) games around 2016 and haven't really looked back. Masks is my favorite, but there are plenty of great games in that space, they're just usually not trad fantasy games. For my home game I'm currently hacking an obscure new game called Grimwild into my preferred shape for a rules-light trad fantasy game. I could go on at length about design theory, but the short of it is that D&D/PF1e are games that are mostly about killing things and taking their stuff with a tactical board game at their core, and the games I like more have mechanics that more actively work with you to create stories. There's a good chance I'm going to get more experimental with things like exploration mechanics and the kingdom management rules; those are low-hanging fruit for tinkering since the official PF rules for them are widely considered to be basically unplayable. I haven't tried Draw Steel yet, but I've run a bit of Daggerheart and I like it well enough. It runs a lot like a PbtA game from the GM's side, but the players' side is still a lot like D&D. So currently Daggerheart has my vote for "the game that's best for playing Cultural D&D" even if it's not the one I most want to run.

@Ta Bayang Does she go by Ta? Is it always Ta Bayang, like a Tribe Called Quest? You say the whole damn thing! In any event, she was much closer to the events surrounding Nyrissa and Count Ranalc than almost anyone. You background leaves it ambiguous, but I would suggest that she was not directly present when The Lantern King banished Count Ranalc to the Plane of Shadow and punished Nyrissa. It provides for there to be some mystery left.

@Zsofia House Dobos can be whoever you'd like. Surtova and Lodovka are both outright pirates. They certainly don't have to be the only pirates on the Lake of Mists and Veils. But they're powerful enough that the other houses can't do anything about it, and the rest of the nobles are smart enough not to openly acknowledge it at court or in polite society. You don't necessarily have to change anything about her father's interactions or relationship to the Surtovas if you don't want to, but I thought I would open that door.

Brevoy politics and starting point

Agree with keeping it one party, potential competing goals might be interesting. Ta Bayang has a vague idea that they should be helping the Medvyeds, but so far all talk of human politics has gone into one ear and out the other. This may very well change in the future, as intrigue and politics are fun to play with, but they definitely won't get serious about it. The Medvyeds might send Ta Bayang as their representative in the Swordlords' expedition as someone who might serve the interests of their house, but would be no great loss if they perish.

Ta Bayang's name and pronouns

Yes, it's the whole thing, always. :)

"Ta" is the romanization of the Mandarin personal pronoun which can mean he/she/it, and it's all pronounced the same (tā), only the characters are written differently (他，她、它). "Bayang" means "shadow" or "shade" in Malay.

Ta Bayang goes by they/them, which I feel best reflects the lack of definite gender (which is a bit I really liked in my initial choice of ancestry and I want to keep).

Them not being present when the big plot points happened works perfectly fine for me, it might provide a chink in their conviction for someone to potentially exploit later.

Okay, noting a lot of folks post when I'm asleep. Hope that doesn't make me look inattentive. :)

Jack has three personal interests in joining an expedition:
Learn more about the Hollowborn and find their source
Find Briar
Help protect people from bandits and raiders.

The last is going to be the most immediately relevant to what he'll want to do from the start. He doesn't care much about politics; a lot of strutting and posturing that all just changes in mere couple of decades anyway. It might even be IC for him to forget what faction he's working for; it's all a means to a better end for him.

He is (was once) a skilled caravan scout and why he'd join folks is obvious: he has skills useful to them. Perhaps one of you recruit him or encourage him to join your particular group?

Hey everybody. Thanks for picking Mal. I'm quickly skimming all the profiles and what's been posted so please forgive me if I miss anything important. Just off the top of my head, I find the following interesting and/or have questions about:

-Really interesting that you picked Zsofia and Mal, since they've both got the last lost heir of Choral bit in their background. Could be interesting if the dragon comes looking for his blood heir and finds 2 of them, maybe the auguries got confused because they're both in the same location.

-I use Czech for Brevoy names so I'll have to work to remember we're using Ottoman/Turk/Italian names for that.

-Looks like Ta Bayang and Mal have a lot in common. They might even know each other before joining the group, but maybe that makes the universe too small.

-Lots of long-lived PCs here. That could have implications for how the human kingdoms/nobles to the north and south view the upstart kingdom. Idk how Surtova or the petty kings in the River Kingdoms would like to see a Duke or Duchess who might rule for 700 years right on their borders.

-Like I said in the recruitment thread, I like to lean heavily into the Brevoy politics and shamelessly crib from ASoIaF/Redcelt's GoT in Brevoy thread. I am a pretty big nerd when it comes to the Song of Ice and Fire books. I would prefer to keep the normal Charter setup for the background because (like you said) it makes the PC kingdom a potential trigger for the upcoming civil war. In my head canon, this gambit into the Stolen Lands is the thing that eventually/soon kicks off a hot war between the Swordlords and Surtova/Lodovka/Orlovsky with Medved/Garess/Lebeda being forced to pick sides, since Surtova can't allow the Swordlords to establish an ostensibly separate kingdom to the south and possibly create a bridge between the Swordlords of Restov and the Swordlords of Mivon that might lead to a Swordlord kingdom that could rival "Brevoy" (which was forced together by Choral and is already coming apart at the seams).

-Re a Gambit Pileup, that makes a lot of sense when you look at all the competing expeditions. The PCs are the least likely group to be successful and I think in the original AP lore they're the most beholden to/reliant upon the Swordlords. I could be wrong about that, I've been running a years-long Kingmaker game and might be conflating my lore and the AP lore. Regardless, you've got Maegar Varn to the east, closest to Restov and more experienced than the PCs, and the Drelev expedition to the west, headed up by a connected and well funded nobleman. The PC expedition, in contrast to the others, is a bunch of randos who just get thrown together and told to, like, go kill some bandits or whatever. So if you assume Drelev is backed by Surtova and Varn more directly by Restov (or Lebeda, who in my game is very rich) then it looks like the PC expedition is kind of a Hail Mary. Sorry this one kind of got away from me, lots of thoughts about the politics of it.

I'll definitely have more thoughts as I get more familiar with everyone's backgrounds and ideas.

Thanks for letting me play!

One thing I should probably add in case it wasn't apparent, my sense of humor tends to be very dry and understated a lot of the time, is that everything Trillium is doing and thinking to bring her into participating in the expedition is really dumb and/or misguided.

That budget she put together for investigating the Rogarvian disappearance is ludicrous. Her idea of the expedition being a good way to make a bunch of fast money is very poorly informed to put it in the gentlest terms. Trillium doesn't have the slightest idea about what she's doing in real world terms.

Trillium will have to do a lot of learning quickly. This, and her lack of any strong ties to the various expedition-specific goals in the broader sense could make her a very persuadable character within the group. She might be a wild card character.

Just linking the Google Doc here for my own ease of reference.

This is coming along together very nicely! The Swordlords were initially going to charter just one group (Maegar Varn's group) but they were caught out by the Brevic nobles and had to charter multiple groups as a result. The Swordlords are heavily banking on Varn to succeed and the PC group will be the disfavored group. In truth, you're really only there to save Maegar Varn the trouble of dealing with the Stag Lord, and if you get killed in the attempt, so much the better (is the Swordlords' thinking). You're the group of weirdos that they couldn't really fit on any of the other teams they were putting together. You're disposable. Which also feeds into why you have to clear out the bandits before they'll even consider giving you actual landholding rights.

@Maylev Yeah, we can have some Czech in there! An Eastern European mishmash for sure. Probably even have some stratification by social class and lineage if we want to get fancy with it. I'm not intending to be too strict about it, that's just my observations from what's already been published. We've got a good group here, I don't expect it to be a huge issue.

I'm leaning toward having Choral's heir be the legitimate offspring of Myrna Surtova. I had originally been toying with the idea that Caelyndraxis might have eaten Myrna on the banks of the Lake of Mists and Veils the very night she and Choral were wed and proceeded to impersonate Myrna for the next ten years, but the more I think about it, the more I like the two dragons as bickering siblings rather than incestuous. Caelyndraxis likely wasn't keen on taking human form and certainly had no interest in carrying or birthing a child. As far as the two dragons are concerned, the whole royal line are disposable tools in their quest to amass wealth and power. But the Rogarvians were still dragonblooded and probably had a high incidence of draconic sorcery in their line, and probably an above average incidence of illegitimate offspring with various other magical heritages.

@Jack In the default game of Kingmaker, Briar winds up in the possession of the king of Pitax, and I'm not even sure Nyrissa is aware of it. I'd need to check the book to make sure of this, I could be wrong. In any event, the latter parts of the AP are...ripe for being rewritten. I don't have a specific location or resting place in mind for Briar at the moment, that might very well be something we all discover together in play.

As a caravan guard, Jack is probably pretty familiar with the geography of the Stolen Lands, or at least a few well-traveled routes. He knows where bandits are likely to set up, etc.

@Ta Bayang Thanks for sharing, good to know!

@Trillium That all tracks. Though I am interested in giving Trillium the chance to do some real research work; there are Pathfinders in Brevoy who have been working on piecing together the true history of Brevoy for centuries at this point. And the Stolen Lands is dotted with ruins of past kingdoms (not to mention the Cyclopean civilization).

@Zsofia Do you think Zsofia would herself consider vying for marriage to Noleski Surtova? That would make for some interesting court politics, it's a stacked field. As far as I can find, there aren't established ages for any of the Brevoy NPCs, so for now it's a lot of relatively young nobles running things in New Stetven. The Surtovas might be early 20s, Elanna Lebeda is probably around 18-20, Lander is still 12 and his mother Dame Saronna is currently head of House Lebeda until Lander comes of age at 15.

I like to think that most of the older nobles have put some distance between themselves and the court at New Stetven; the older adults are presiding over their estates personally and keeping their thumb on business and real feudal politics as they prepare for the inevitable war while their children play at being in charge in the capital. If the Vanishing happened in 4699 AR, that puts it at 7 to 8 years ago if we start in 4707. Perhaps the former head of House Surtova, Noleski and Natala's father, secured Surtovan regency over Brevoy but died somewhat recently, so the fragility rests on a young and brash Surtovan regent.

@Trillium That all tracks. Though I am interested in giving Trillium the chance to do some real research work; there are Pathfinders in Brevoy who have been working on piecing together the true history of Brevoy for centuries at this point. And the Stolen Lands is dotted with ruins of past kingdoms (not to mention the Cyclopean civilization).

Oh Trillium is completely serious about the solving the mystery of the Rogarvians' disappearance. She just lacks the project management and budgeting skills that she thinks she has.

We could definitely keep it as being chartered by the Swordlords if that's what's preferred. In that case, we might have something like a Gambit Pileup with a bunch of different factions inserting their own people into the Swordlords' play for the Stolen Lands. It would be a situation where the Swordlords are suspicious that it's happening but may or may not be able to prove it, but they also can't veto it without tipping their hand to Surtova. It's a game of "everybody knows what's happening and everybody is going to pretend it's not happening and nobody's going to say anything about it or acknowledge it." This positions the PC kingdom as being a linchpin to the whole barely-contained pressure cooker.

...
@Tsia How old is Tsia? Elves have long lifespans and she grew up in Iobaria. It's possible she was alive and around when the human warlord Choral Rogarvia showed up out of nowhere and started assimilating multiple tribes under his banner only to disappear just as suddenly when he took his army across the Lake of Mists and Veils. Certainly the dragons noticed that he seemed to have the cooperation of two of their own number who might have been known (among dragons) to be young upstarts with too many schemes.

Oh, I like this. ;)

Tsia is 133, so old enough to have fairly clear memories of rumours of humans going into a tizzy with the death of Aroden, but it’s her parents’ generation that would have been keeping an eye out for what was going on with Choral the Conqueror. Much closer to home, and around the same time (from an elven perspective), there was the Drakeplague, which did a number on Mavradia in Iobaria as a bunch of panicking diseased dragons descended on the city. I had a thought that Tsia’s liege lost one of her step-parents in the mess, which would bring it much closer to home to her, and inspire her concerned interest in local draconic doings.

If the Vanishing happened around 10 years before the start of our game, depending on how stable Brevoy looks on the surface, she’s probably not going to be impressed that people are just … taking it in stride? I figure she’s been travelling in the area long enough to have made some connections and get into a bit of trouble here and there already, so she might well have been in Brevoy or one of the nearer River Kingdoms to see some of the immediate fallout.

In terms of getting the group together and the Gambit Pileup, Tsia would naturally gravitate towards Maegar Varn’s expedition, since that region’s closest to her home turf, but as a largely unknown, outside quantity, the Swordlords might find it convenient to fob her off on Zsófia, who, in turn, might think – at least at the outset – that this way she can deprive the Swordlords of a potential sympathizer. (The less political folks’ eyes glaze over. :p ) Despite how “current” Brevic history is to Tsia, and so worth keeping an eye on, to start with, it’s just another safety issue as she swans about as a gentlewoman antiquarian whose local interests are about much, much older periods.

Okay, noting a lot of folks post when I'm asleep. Hope that doesn't make me look inattentive. :)

Jack has three personal interests in joining an expedition:
Learn more about the Hollowborn and find their source
Find Briar
Help protect people from bandits and raiders.

The last is going to be the most immediately relevant to what he'll want to do from the start. He doesn't care much about politics; a lot of strutting and posturing that all just changes in mere couple of decades anyway. It might even be IC for him to forget what faction he's working for; it's all a means to a better end for him.

He is (was once) a skilled caravan scout and why he'd join folks is obvious: he has skills useful to them. Perhaps one of you recruit him or encourage him to join your particular group?

I was thinking that Tsia might have ended up in Restov most recently by way of what will eventually become the general neighbourhood of Varnhold. If Malylev was mentored by Bokken, maybe he picked up on the rumours of plans brewing for the Stolen Lands and decided to look into things when a trip to resupply on some town-ish materials presented an occasion, and he and Tsia met (at least briefly) en route, and they (and possibly some other folks travelling together for safety) picked Jack up along the way? Malylev might well look like someone who can take care of himself, but Tsia almost certainly looks like someone in over her head on dangerous roads.

This is coming along together very nicely! The Swordlords were initially going to charter just one group (Maegar Varn's group) but they were caught out by the Brevic nobles and had to charter multiple groups as a result. The Swordlords are heavily banking on Varn to succeed and the PC group will be the disfavored group. In truth, you're really only there to save Maegar Varn the trouble of dealing with the Stag Lord, and if you get killed in the attempt, so much the better (is the Swordlords' thinking). You're the group of weirdos that they couldn't really fit on any of the other teams they were putting together. You're disposable. Which also feeds into why you have to clear out the bandits before they'll even consider giving you actual landholding rights.

Yeah, that tracks. Experienced group to the east, connected leader to the west, and Zsofia the obvious Surtova plant gets the dregs that showed up and just volunteered out of the blue. Hopefully they quietly die and Varn can pick up the pieces in a couple of years. ;)

I'm leaning toward having Choral's heir be the legitimate offspring of Myrna Surtova. I had originally been toying with the idea that Caelyndraxis might have eaten Myrna on the banks of the Lake of Mists and Veils the very night she and Choral were wed and proceeded to impersonate Myrna for the next ten years, but the more I think about it, the more I like the two dragons as bickering siblings rather than incestuous. Caelyndraxis likely wasn't keen on taking human form and certainly had no interest in carrying or birthing a child. As far as the two dragons are concerned, the whole royal line are disposable tools in their quest to amass wealth and power. But the Rogarvians were still dragonblooded and probably had a high incidence of draconic sorcery in their line, and probably an above average incidence of illegitimate offspring with various other magical heritages.

That's interesting since neither Zsofia or Mal are currently the legitimate descendants of Myrna, unless I'm reading Zsofia's background wrong. Zsofia's descended from a cousin of Choral and Mal is descended from an illegitmate child of Choral's heir and Mal's 5x great-grandmother (wife of the founder of House Rath, which is a reskinned House Mormont from Game of Thrones). Did you want one of us to change that or is it not a big deal either way?

In terms of getting the group together and the Gambit Pileup, Tsia would naturally gravitate towards Maegar Varn’s expedition, since that region’s closest to her home turf, but as a largely unknown, outside quantity, the Swordlords might find it convenient to fob her off on Zsófia, who, in turn, might think – at least at the outset – that this way she can deprive the Swordlords of a potential sympathizer. (The less political folks’ eyes glaze over. :p ) Despite how “current” Brevic history is to Tsia, and so worth keeping an eye on, to start with, it’s just another safety issue as she swans about as a gentlewoman antiquarian whose local interests are about much, much older periods.

This sounds good. You've got Zsofia as Surtova's representative, Ta Bayang representing Medvyed, Tsia nominally representing the Swordlords, and Mal, Jack, and Trillium as neutrals.

I was thinking that Tsia might have ended up in Restov most recently by way of what will eventually become the general neighbourhood of Varnhold. If Malylev was mentored by Bokken, maybe he picked up on the rumours of plans brewing for the Stolen Lands and decided to look into things when a trip to resupply on some town-ish materials presented an occasion, and he and Tsia met (at least briefly) en route, and they (and possibly some other folks travelling together for safety) picked Jack up along the way? Malylev might well look like someone who can take care of himself, but Tsia almost certainly looks like someone in over her head on dangerous roads.

Yeah, that works for me. It also looks like Mal and Jack might also have a good reason to know each other since Jack has been living in the Stolen Lands and Mal has been apprenticing with Bokken and both of them are the helpful type, so this trio could have met up on the way to Restov?

And if Mal and Ta Bayang knew each other from the Medvyeds court, that's 4 PCs that know each other at least well enough to nod hi in passing. Though Mal isn't currently going by his given name he'd still probably be recognizable.

@GM Hurley, I'll answer the questions you asked in a little bit, but it occurs to me that maybe it would be better to not have Zsofia related to Choral at all, to better distinguish Mal's story? With the bloodline as you've described it, I think Zsofia's relative granted the lands of the Shrike river would have to have been related to Myrna Surtova. That probably means they don't have any dragon in them. Zsofia's got a lot of story hooks already without that. What do you think?

@Zsofia Do you think Zsofia would herself consider vying for marriage to Noleski Surtova? That would make for some interesting court politics, it's a stacked field. As far as I can find, there aren't established ages for any of the Brevoy NPCs, so for now it's a lot of relatively young nobles running things in New Stetven. The Surtovas might be early 20s, Elanna Lebeda is probably around 18-20, Lander is still 12 and his mother Dame Saronna is currently head of House Lebeda until Lander comes of age at 15.

I like to think that most of the older nobles have put some distance between themselves and the court at New Stetven; the older adults are presiding over their estates personally and keeping their thumb on business and real feudal politics as they prepare for the inevitable war while their children play at being in charge in the capital. If the Vanishing happened in 4699 AR, that puts it at 7 to 8 years ago if we start in 4707. Perhaps the former head of House Surtova, Noleski and Natala's father, secured Surtovan regency over Brevoy but died somewhat recently, so the fragility rests on a young and brash Surtovan regent.

Whether or not Zsofia seriously considers courting Noleski Surtova for marriage probably depends on what is best for our new kingdom. I don't think she has any aspirations for his hand currently, though she found him charming enough and certainly appreciates his family's deviousness. I imagine the subject was briefly broached by Noleski's sister, basically privately telling Szofia "Don't get married any time soon, just in case." I'm sure they think whether or not a marriage happens is up to them, not to her. If they did send her a proposal, I think she would try to delay or refuse as long as she could get away with it. However, if our fledgling kingdom is in desperate need of northern aid for some reason, that's certainly a bargaining chip we'd have available to us.

Politically, marriage to the king-regent might be a way for the Surtovas to soothe some of the current instability in Brevoy, but I'm not sure it benefits House Surtova to bring House Lebeda into their family. It might be the expected path to an heir, and it might help to mend the widening rift between Issia and Rostland, but it basically gives away the throne, and it might lead Issia to boil over into revolt. And maybe Noleski doesn't want to get married for whatever reason? The king-regent might be privately countering that instead his sister should marry Lander Lebeda when he comes of age, with the same effect. And maybe she doesn't want to get married either. :)

That's interesting since neither Zsofia or Mal are currently the legitimate descendants of Myrna, unless I'm reading Zsofia's background wrong. Zsofia's descended from a cousin of Choral and Mal is descended from an illegitimate child of Choral's heir and Mal's 5x great-grandmother (wife of the founder of House Rath, which is a reskinned House Mormont from Game of Thrones). Did you want one of us to change that or is it not a big deal either way?

We really gotta get Choral's heir a name. Charles feels way too on-the-nose but it's good enough as a working name for now.

I'm pointing out the canon I had in place when I started recruitment. For backstories that conflict, we'll have to massage the details unless they're crucial to the character, in which case we'll find a compromise. In Zsofia's case, the minimum would be that she would trace ancestry through "Charles", Choral's heir. Alternatively, we could have a situation where the first generation of House Rogarvia are largely made up of Choral's warband with "Charles" as their eventual leader. So maybe Choral did have a "cousin" and there could be legal lineage that connects them, but that wouldn't establish an actual blood relation of the sort that is relevant to the foul magic of the Vanishing. If there is such a blood connection, it would have been a result of breeding in subsequent generations. So you've got the first generation of House Rogarvia freely intermingling with the other noble houses, and especially the Surtovas and their bannermen.

@GM Hurley, I'll answer the questions you asked in a little bit, but it occurs to me that maybe it would be better to not have Zsofia related to Choral at all, to better distinguish Mal's story? With the bloodline as you've described it, I think Zsofia's relative granted the lands of the Shrike river would have to have been related to Myrna Surtova. That probably means they don't have any dragon in them. Zsofia's got a lot of story hooks already without that. What do you think?

That's fine with me if you want to eliminate that angle entirely. I don't think we would need to, but I'll leave that up to you. I wasn't going to put a limit on the number of "Choral descendants" I was taking. Being a descendant of Choral is fine, being related to a "cousin" is fine. We haven't really established what happened with Myrna after Choral left, so it's possible she could have had other semi-legitimate children later on.

Regarding Noleski and Natala, he's not keen to get married but he's not actively avoiding it. Natala relishes her position as de facto queen and is in no hurry to give that up. I could definitely see her hinting to Zsofia that she might be eligible to marry Noleski, but as a ploy to create more drama and piss off/distract the other would-be suitresses.

The Lebedas are molded at least somewhat after House Tyrell. They're in an awkward geopolitical position and marrying into the throne would be a great move for them if Elanna could pull it off. The Surtovas have Issia under their thumb, or at least they think they do.

That's fine with me if you want to eliminate that angle entirely. I don't think we would need to, but I'll leave that up to you. I wasn't going to put a limit on the number of "Choral descendants" I was taking. Being a descendant of Choral is fine, being related to a "cousin" is fine. We haven't really established what happened with Myrna after Choral left, so it's possible she could have had other semi-legitimate children later on.

I feel like on reflection that adding the dragon descendant plot to Zsofia's story is gilding the lily, so I'll remove it.

If Zsofia's ancestor Zoltán Dobós was Myrna Surtova's uncle, he could still have been Choral's cousin by marriage, and that is enough of a connection to justify Zsofia's claim. I don't know what he could have done to impress Choral enough for him to grant his cousin a title, but maybe the dragon just didn't care about any of the lands south of Brevoy, so it seemed like a valueless gift. Maybe he had heard that the Stolen Lands were under the sway of a powerful faerie and unlikely to be conquered? Or maybe Zoltán made himself valuable to Choral in some other way, like providing powerful magic or something. I suppose Choral could have even just liked Zoltán, as improbable as that sounds, and they were actual friends! Whatever the reason, it might still get Zsofia involved in the plot, as Choral would probably recognize Zsofia as Zoltán's descendant.

Lots to ponder but a couple quick things:

@Malylev: Jack's been in his village in Brevoy for a decade or four (he's lost track) but IIRC Bokken (he's the herbalist hermit, right?) is old enough Jack could have come across him in his travels. Perhaps he occasionally goes to check on him and trade for potions. So certainly perhaps he's run into Mal and discussed the opportunity to join an expedition together.

@Trillium: With what you say about her boldly striding forth into foolishness, I could see this sparking a protective instinct in Jack who might offer to watch your back. Not in a weird hovery way, but just an oof, this girl needs all the help she can get. Would that make sense?

Other stuff: I think Jack is a lover of stories. He might not pay attention to a lot of politics and history but knows local folk tales and the like. People's history. He's got no skill points in lore or knowledge local so it's not going to be coherent or super immediately useful stuff but I might try to come up with some tales he's fond of (which may or may not be accurate) that could feed into some of the world events. If that makes sense.

So if Zsofia is the de facto leader of this ragtag bunch of wildcards, she might have had a say in who is on her "team", right? I think she certainly would have leapt at the idea of hiring Jack and Malylev, for their experience with the area and their wilderness skills in general. She is painfully aware of what a "fish out of water" she is outside of Restov. I don't think she'd know what to think of Ta Bayang, Tsia, and Trillium (the three Ts!). They certainly have useful abilities for a budding new kingdom, and I think their personalities would really appeal to her. She would think she can get along with them, and would hope that she can learn more about their different agendas as they learn more about hers.

I don't think she'll let on yet that she considers the whole kingdom her inheritance-- she'd rather wait until it matters. For now, her title is simply "Baroness of the Narlmarches," and she intends to find out all she can about her estates while following the conditions of their charter. I imagine that as she gets to know and rely upon the other PCs that she will come to think of the kingdom as "ours" rather than hers, and herself as more of a figurehead for their collective endeavors.

So if Zsofia is the de facto leader of this ragtag bunch of wildcards, she might have had a say in who is on her "team", right? I think she certainly would have leapt at the idea of hiring Jack and Malylev, for their experience with the area and their wilderness skills in general. She is painfully aware of what a "fish out of water" she is outside of Restov. I don't think she'd know what to think of Ta Bayang, Tsia, and Trillium (the three Ts!). They certainly have useful abilities for a budding new kingdom, and I think their personalities would really appeal to her. She would think she can get along with them, and would hope that she can learn more about their different agendas as they learn more about hers.

Perhaps Jack and Mal arrive and Zsofia hears of them and seeks to hire them, then the others fill in as we encounter them--whether because they are helpful or to keep them from getting themselves into trouble (per my comment to Trillium). ;)

Zsófia Dobós wrote:

So if Zsofia is the de facto leader of this ragtag bunch of wildcards, she might have had a say in who is on her "team", right? I think she certainly would have leapt at the idea of hiring Jack and Malylev, for their experience with the area and their wilderness skills in general. She is painfully aware of what a "fish out of water" she is outside of Restov. I don't think she'd know what to think of Ta Bayang, Tsia, and Trillium (the three Ts!). They certainly have useful abilities for a budding new kingdom, and I think their personalities would really appeal to her. She would think she can get along with them, and would hope that she can learn more about their different agendas as they learn more about hers.

Perhaps Jack and Mal arrive and Zsofia hears of them and seeks to hire them, then the others fill in as we encounter them--whether because they are helpful or to keep them from getting themselves into trouble (per my comment to Trillium). ;)

That works very well, too!

Whether or not we imagine snowcaster elves as typically fostering their kids out to other families (in keeping with the Celtic and Arthurian vibes our GM suggested we might want to play with in this game, and given that snowcasters are big on community), I’ve been thinking that, one way or another, Tsia’s been more or less brought up in the court(s) of her feudal superiors. (To the extent that folks as chaotic as elves fret about such things. Probably very cliquey, more than an easily understandable chain of command.) When she’s not in the thick of tromping through the woods, she’ll do her best to attach herself to a similar situation, because that’s how she knows her life works. Helping to get a new barony off the ground is likely to result in culture shock. o.O

Which is to say, since I imagine she’s been through Restov before, there’s probably a spot she can easily slip back into in the shadow of the Aldori sponsors of our expedition, as one of their hangers-on. If anyone else has had dealings with them before – Ta Bayang on behalf of the Medvyeds, or Malylev if he occasionally comes into town to see what the nobles are up to, even incognito, for example – they might recognize Tsia from there. That way we can still work in the possible nodding acquaintances Malylev suggested, if anyone wants.

“Many are my names in many countries,’ he said. ‘Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.”

Also, just because it’s a fun canon quirk that I took and ran with, I’m imagining that among non-elves, and even those elves who aren’t familiar with some of the more obvious foibles of ilverani, Tsia mostly goes by “Silver Dawn,” with a couple of other aliases acquired in a few specific places. (People cozying up to the king of Pitax probably refer to “Bittertree,” with a few other choice – although not well-considered – words attached.)

I imagine all that will get sorted quite quickly as our characters get to know one another - maybe Jack is the one to put things together and bring Tsia’s actual name to light for the group? or anyone who might acquire weird anthropological factoids about the cultures on the other side of the mountains? – but if anyone wants to run with the idea that their character knows (of) her already, what name they know her under might provide an outline of the ground they or their circle are starting from, with Tsia. :)

I think the Medvyeds have not deemed Ta Bayang fit to be in any sort of polite society, but perhaps they might hire Tsia for a double role - as a tailor and tutor of etiquette?

I think Malylev and Ta Bayang are enough alike that they would know each other from one of Mal's visits to Stoneclimb.

I'm pointing out the canon I had in place when I started recruitment. For backstories that conflict, we'll have to massage the details unless they're crucial to the character, in which case we'll find a compromise. In Zsofia's case, the minimum would be that she would trace ancestry through "Charles", Choral's heir. Alternatively, we could have a situation where the first generation of House Rogarvia are largely made up of Choral's warband with "Charles" as their eventual leader. So maybe Choral did have a "cousin" and there could be legal lineage that connects them, but that wouldn't establish an actual blood relation of the sort that is relevant to the foul magic of the Vanishing. If there is such a blood connection, it would have been a result of breeding in subsequent generations. So you've got the first generation of House Rogarvia freely intermingling with the other noble houses, and especially the Surtovas and their bannermen.

Yeah I think it might be tough to have a legitimate blood heir to Choral outside of some weird Rogarvian exception to the Disappearance, especially after 6 generations of noble intermarriage.

@Malylev: Jack's been in his village in Brevoy for a decade or four (he's lost track) but IIRC Bokken (he's the herbalist hermit, right?) is old enough Jack could have come across him in his travels. Perhaps he occasionally goes to check on him and trade for potions. So certainly perhaps he's run into Mal and discussed the opportunity to join an expedition together.

Sounds good!

@Trillium: With what you say about her boldly striding forth into foolishness, I could see this sparking a protective instinct in Jack who might offer to watch your back. Not in a weird hovery way, but just an oof, this girl needs all the help she can get. Would that make sense?

Mal would be happy to get in on that too.

Other stuff: I think Jack is a lover of stories. He might not pay attention to a lot of politics and history but knows local folk tales and the like. People's history. He's got no skill points in lore or knowledge local so it's not going to be coherent or super immediately useful stuff but I might try to come up with some tales he's fond of (which may or may not be accurate) that could feed into some of the world events. If that makes sense.

Mal isn't a big storyteller but he likes meeting people and would potentially know a lot of random hunters, charcoal burners, trappers, etc. who just live in the area. It would be nice to have someone along to tell stories around the campfire at night.

I don't think she'll let on yet that she considers the whole kingdom her inheritance-- she'd rather wait until it matters. For now, her title is simply "Baroness of the Narlmarches," and she intends to find out all she can about her estates while following the conditions of their charter. I imagine that as she gets to know and rely upon the other PCs that she will come to think of the kingdom as "ours" rather than hers, and herself as more of a figurehead for their collective endeavors.

Oh that's interesting. So she has a legal title from the Dragonscale Throne of Baroness to this land already? That might put her on the same social level as Drelev to our west. I wonder how that might affect the possibility of non-Surtova allies.

I wouldn't be surprised if Swordlords or other Houses try to bribe/suggest that maybe Zsofia not surviving would be the best for the other members of the expedition. It would be pretty embarrassing for Surtova if their assigned expedition leader fails/die.

Hmm, would that mean anyone politically savvy knows Zsofia might put a target on their expedition's back? Maybe. Cool! :)

Which is to say, since I imagine she’s been through Restov before, there’s probably a spot she can easily slip back into in the shadow of the Aldori sponsors of our expedition, as one of their hangers-on. If anyone else has had dealings with them before – Ta Bayang on behalf of the Medvyeds, or Malylev if he occasionally comes into town to see what the nobles are up to, even incognito, for example – they might recognize Tsia from there. That way we can still work in the possible nodding acquaintances Malylev suggested, if anyone wants.

Yeah, that works. Jack and Mal show up and Mal recognizes Tsia from his visits to Restov and they all agree to help each other?

I imagine all that will get sorted quite quickly as our characters get to know one another - maybe Jack is the one to put things together and bring Tsia’s actual name to light for the group? or anyone who might acquire weird anthropological factoids about the cultures on the other side of the mountains? – but if anyone wants to run with the idea that their character knows (of) her already, what name they know her under might provide an outline of the ground they or their circle are starting from, with Tsia. :)

Sure, what name would she go by in Restov? Not among Swordlords, since Mal would try to stick to the working class folk.

I think Malylev and Ta Bayang are enough alike that they would know each other from one of Mal's visits to Stoneclimb.

Perfect!

Mal knowing half the party already really goes with his high Cha and the idea that he likes talking to people (angling for the Counselor leadership role).

Sounds good, Mal! (Which sounds a bit like “Junior” in my head, given how you’ve constructed the name, now that I think of it. :) )

Anyway, re: Tsia's aliases, I don’t want to overcomplicate things from the outset, it was just a thought. It’s not a class thing, except to the extent that some commoners might be wary of how they talk to knights and still more pretentious folk than that. “Silver Dawn” is Tsia’s default alias among non- ilverani/snowcasters. Once we start posting in gameplay, I can even try posting accordingly until she opens up to everyone, unless that would be too confusing.
Or I can just find other, more direct ways to highlight that Tsia is a bit cagey around people she doesn’t know, even when, technically, she’s the (potentially somewhat dubious/suspect) outsider, as an Iobarian elf crossing over from the edge of Casmaron into Avistan.

I think the Medvyeds have not deemed Ta Bayang fit to be in any sort of polite society, but perhaps they might hire Tsia for a double role - as a tailor and tutor of etiquette?

I think Malylev and Ta Bayang are enough alike that they would know each other from one of Mal's visits to Stoneclimb.

That could definitely work, even if it’s a new development as the game takes off. Something like Ta Bayang’s family wondering what to do with them while the family is doing very serious mortal business, spots an elf quietly at her needlework in the background, and tells their adopted kayal something like, “Why don’t you go bother / try to be more like her now?” :/ And the rest is history? :)

Definitely planning on taking Craft Wondrous Item eventually, and if folks don’t ask Tsia to personalize their cloaks of resistance and whatnot, she’ll be just a little hurt. ;)

@Trillium: With what you say about her boldly striding forth into foolishness, I could see this sparking a protective instinct in Jack who might offer to watch your back. Not in a weird hovery way, but just an oof, this girl needs all the help she can get. Would that make sense?

@Jack: This sounds good to me. I don't think Trillium would find anything at all unusual about it. Like I've mentioned before, she is sort of used to people helping her out or doing her favors.

In broader terms regarding the party, I think Trillium will start to some degree as the odd person out. She really shouldn't be there at all considering her background. But, ta-da! somebody did her a favor.

Trillium won't be bothered by it. She will just get to work trying to figure out how to make everyone like her and implementing whatever steps she needs to win them over because that's her currency for making it in life. She's very entrepreneurial about such things.

I kind of think of it like this: some people go to wilderness survival camps and such so they will know how to survive if they ever get stranded away from civilization or whatever. Trillium has spent her whole life in a social survival school that has provided her with the skills and knowledge to meet people, make connections, and build social networks.

Trillium might sound kind of awful as she's been described by me so far. But really she isn't at all. She's absolutely willing to put in the work and earn goodwill and friendship. She's really a total sweetheart. You'll all love her.

Oh that's interesting. So she has a legal title from the Dragonscale Throne of Baroness to this land already? That might put her on the same social level as Drelev to our west. I wonder how that might affect the possibility of non-Surtova allies.

She has a title granted by the Dragonscale Throne to a smaller part of The Stolen Lands. I've been saying it applies to the Narlmarches, but since that's a pretty big chunk of land-- more like a county or duchy-- it might be better to say she's the Baroness of Candlemere instead, and for her to believe that her estates should also include the wild lands to the west.

Anyway, re: Tsia's aliases, I don’t want to overcomplicate things from the outset, it was just a thought. It’s not a class thing, except to the extent that some commoners might be wary of how they talk to knights and still more pretentious folk than that. “Silver Dawn” is Tsia’s default alias among non- ilverani/snowcasters.

I wonder if Tsia (being an occultist) will start to associate her different items of clothing with her different names? E.g. "Today I'm doing lots of Evocation, so I'm specifically wearing my 'Tsia The Burninator' hat." :)

I imagine all that will get sorted quite quickly as our characters get to know one another - maybe Jack is the one to put things together and bring Tsia’s actual name to light for the group?

He might or might not gain insight into her many names, but you might be assuming a lot about an elf who goes by the name "Jack." ;) He had another name once and never brings it up, so ...

Jack also ran away from his Kyonin-bound kin quite young so his knowledge of elf lore would be pretty spotty. He may have never even heard of the snowcasters. So Tsia's going to be something of a mystery for him. In a way that hopefully creates some openings for conversation eventually.

@Trillium sounds good.

If I haven't spoken to other characters (Zsofia, Ta Bayang) I'm not ignoring you, just still taking everything in!

I wonder if Tsia (being an occultist) will start to associate her different items of clothing with her different names? E.g. "Today I'm doing lots of Evocation, so I'm specifically wearing my 'Tsia The Burninator' hat." :)

o.o

Oh no. What have you done? XD

I hadn’t thought all that far ahead, but I guess something like that must be inevitable, mustn’t it?

It would be great if I could think of technical terms for particular motifs / styles in embroidery that I could press into service, but I’m blanking on suitable at the moment, unlike, say, quilting. (“Good heavens, no! With Dove in the Window? Evocation calls for Grandmother’s Flower Garden, to be sure.”)

But at least now we can guess what it might look like if Tsia gives in to evil. Will it take a few hundred years for “ready-mades” to catch on in Avistan? Maybe, but flash-forward to:

Lights go off. Paparazzi shout awkward, but eminently inconsequential questions about that one model and accusations of encouraging unhealthy body image. This one sticks to the script ("I'm grateful for the opportunity to show off so many designers for great lines, of course. But "Silver Dawn" always makes me feel more ... evocative."), smiles, flips her hair, and sashays down the red carpet for the opening night of the Oppara Fashion Show. A forest of wands of minor image waves to capture the scene for the papers and the plebs. Herself is already in her VIP seat, unruffled, as always. Impeccable. After all, everyone knows, Demons wear Troian.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Fortunately, quite apart from other considerations keeping her on the side of the angels, Tsia’s reasonably devout, and Findeladlara seems like a deity that would strongly favour craft traditions over mass production and … wait, have I rolled up an elven May Morris?

@GM Hurley: Do you need anything else from us before we can get started? It seems like we have a pretty good framing device worked out, so I would imagine we should be able to begin in media rez traveling from Restov to Oleg's. Presumably we can have been briefly introduced to each other, but hurriedly sent off and left to get to know each other on the road?

Yeah at this point I feel like I would establish more character work RPing with the party IC. If you're not easy to fully start, GM, could we talk amongst ourselves IC?

@GM Hurley: Do you need anything else from us before we can get started? It seems like we have a pretty good framing device worked out, so I would imagine we should be able to begin in media rez traveling from Restov to Oleg's. Presumably we can have been briefly introduced to each other, but hurriedly sent off and left to get to know each other on the road?

You mean you don't want to play out a highly fraught meeting with all the weight of Zsófia and the Swordlords' competing plots and ambitions carried by (mostly) polite insinuations, meaningful pauses and sidelong glances, and the murmurs of Rostland's eagerly eavesdropping glitterati? Seeing the machinations of the powers that be roll over our poor 1st-level heads? XD

Is that an option? :) As fun as it might be, I worry it would leave other players bored and uninvolved for a large stretch of time. But maybe we could use some of those tools the GM envisions where we have concurrent scenes in the present and in flashback?

I was looking forward to playing the banquet scene and the meeting with the Swordlords (although we can maybe fast-forward through the encounters sandwiched between those).

Does Kingmaker the AP start in the same way as the video game version? Banquet that turns to chaos?

I've been in two (ended prematurely) versions of Kingmaker and in both the settings were changed and started differently. I'm in another version but joined the party later than at the beginning (and that character is dead currently, so her adventures may be short lived).

I know the original didn't but the 10th anniversary edition was updated with stuff from the CRPG so it might have gotten that start. Unfortunately I don't have that one.

She has a title granted by the Dragonscale Throne to a smaller part of The Stolen Lands. I've been saying it applies to the Narlmarches, but since that's a pretty big chunk of land-- more like a county or duchy-- it might be better to say she's the Baroness of Candlemere instead, and for her to believe that her estates should also include the wild lands to the west.

Surely if they're just making up new titles out of whole cloth they'd at least go for the alliteration of Countess of Candlemere. ;)

Is that an option? :) As fun as it might be, I worry it would leave other players bored and uninvolved for a large stretch of time. But maybe we could use some of those tools the GM envisions where we have concurrent scenes in the present and in flashback?

It may be the chaos faerie in me, but I guess it depends on how complicated the planning stages of the scheme were, when our characters got involved, how much tolerance folks have for characters pinballing in and out of conversations, and how large and open we imagine those discussions would be.

Based on what Hurley said about how the major players might consider the PCs disposable pawns, for now, I think that suggests an interesting irony between how the more pretentious of our characters see the start of the expedition and the reality. Is the mustering, with presentation of charters and all, a grand occasion that recognizes their importance and abilities, or is it adorable barbarians playing at princesses about backwaters in ways that would make even the peasants in actual civilization titter behind their sleeves? (What did they say about it in Iadara? Egorian? Almas? Oppara? “Quelques arpents de neige,” I imagine, if they even noticed.) If we set the opening scene at the official announcement of the expeditions south, that could play out in all the characters (PCs and otherwise) milling about to glean some last-minute intel about what all everyone’s planning to get up to, and where, in a chaotic, pirate kingdom sort of way, rather than the pageantry of more established realms. (All while doing their best to be the sorts of people that would be taken seriously in more cosmopolitan parts.)

Hopefully that would let people carve out a space to flesh out something that piques their interest and dip in and out of responding to similar in everyone else’s addition to the scene. I do worry about boring Trillium and Jack and Malylev, but maybe that would make it more accessible? (Especially if Ta Bayang makes the proceedings less boring. :) ) A post or two to establish everyone’s mood about the announcement, then someone rings a glass, our Swordlord hosts (and our GM) herd the cats and shoo them off to try not to get murdered by bandits?

Or, absolutely, cutting in flashback scenes in spoilers and the like while we’re en route to Oleg’s works too. They could be nominally independent, too, if we imagine that some of us might have correspondence to keep up with, keeping friends and allies apprised of our activities, but actually play off what we see in everyone's character's recollections of events.

Zsófia Dobós wrote:

She has a title granted by the Dragonscale Throne to a smaller part of The Stolen Lands. I've been saying it applies to the Narlmarches, but since that's a pretty big chunk of land-- more like a county or duchy-- it might be better to say she's the Baroness of Candlemere instead, and for her to believe that her estates should also include the wild lands to the west.

Surely if they're just making up new titles out of whole cloth they'd at least go for the alliteration of Countess of Candlemere. ;)

Oh, and quite by coincidence, the background generator from Ultimate Campaign decided that Tsia's liege back home is a countess, so that would set up perhaps too perfect a chivalrous dilemma for later. :)

Granted Zsófia has never been there, but from what I remember Candlemere is a small island that is fairly easily separated from the lands surrounding it, so it would have been easy for her father and the king-regent to declare it a single barony without having to include other estates in the package. The Narlmarches is big enough for its lady to be a marchioness, but I think giving her such a grandiose title would have been too much when it was just intended as a way to get her in the door at the Aldori Academy as a girl newly come of age. It should at least have seemed plausible that she was a young aristocrat that no one had ever heard of before, and "countess" would certainly have raised eyebrows. It probably doesn't matter, because the Swordlords were so well-informed that they knew immediately who she was and who her father was working with, and so they shut her down completely. But I still think her father would have tried to be subtle.

Also granted Zsófia likes raising eyebrows, and if she hadn't been asked specifically to keep her father's inheritance quiet for now, she might be declaring to everyone that she is the rightful holder of the lands of the Shrike River. She could have negotiated with Noleski Surtova to get him to "bump up" her title in exchange for her agreeing to go on this mission for him. So if we really want her to start as "Lady Candlemere, Marchioness of the Narlmarches," I don't think it breaks verisimilitude. I wrote something in her background where she thought disparagingly of one of the ladies of House Orlovsky and in her mind used the word "countess" as a slur. I imagine she's thinking of someone in particular whose behavior has struck her as particularly "countessy". So it might be particularly amusing for everyone if the party chooses it as a nickname for her, because she will try to be gracious and laugh it off but it will drive her crazy. It makes sense, because most people don't know what a marchioness is, and as Malylev pointed out "Countess Candlemere" sounds better than "Lady Candlemere".

Hurley? You still with us?

I do worry about boring Trillium and Jack and Malylev, but maybe that would make it more accessible? (Especially if Ta Bayang makes the proceedings less boring. :) )

I'd be happy to have a scene where the important nobles in the group are hobnobbing while Mal is trying to guess whether anybody recognizes him (since he was Wyman Manderly's recognized heir) and he's sneaking off to the kitchen to try to unionize the help and preach the glory of socialism. Say what you will about the Swordlords but at least they understand class struggle. ;)

I wrote something in her background where she thought disparagingly of one of the ladies of House Orlovsky and in her mind used the word "countess" as a slur. I imagine she's thinking of someone in particular whose behavior has struck her as particularly "countessy". So it might be particularly amusing for everyone if the party chooses it as a nickname for her, because she will try to be gracious and laugh it off but it will drive her crazy. It makes sense, because most people don't know what a marchioness is, and as Malylev pointed out "Countess Candlemere" sounds...

Aaaaand done. :D Mal will be calling Zsofia "Countess Candlemere" as long as they're not around actual nobility where it would be confusing.

Hurley? You still with us?

Still here! Busy work week followed by busy weekend. The first post is taking a little bit as I tweak formatting and such; I'm trying to establish precedent for consistent posting, it takes a bit of work on the front end is all.

It sounds like there is interest in doing some RP with the Aldori banquet (Owlcat game/2e campaign), I agree that could be interesting. I think the best compromise for that is to open on the road to Oleg's to give you all a chance to RP together and capitalize on the starting energy. RP pertaining to the Aldori banquet can be handled in spoilers alongside "current" RP, I'm working on getting a first post up to demonstrate what that format will look like.

@Zsofia
The Narlmarches is a large stretch of territory, but that doesn't pose a major problem; Brevoy is willing to play fast and loose with titles to the Stolen Lands because they know that neither they nor anybody else has the power projection to make good on any claims. If a would-be count wants to set out to try to enforce their claim of any title they may have, all the better for Brevoy should they succeed.

I was curious if the AP officially started that way, but it doesn't make a difference to me where we start. Jack's reaction to unfamiliar terrain (a noble's party) would be amusing but there's plenty to do on the road.

I would love either way to hear Zsofia's official pitch to the party to pull is together tho. :)