Pathfinder Strike Force One

Game Master Ira kroll

Apologies, I saw an "I told you so" and called it snarkey. Talk of that being their only personality trait is going to far though. I didn't intend for all this...

Other note, yay for "Still". Oh no for "in hospice". That's a tough time.

Apologies, I saw an "I told you so" and called it snarkey. Talk of that being their only personality trait is going to far though. I didn't intend for all this...

You didn't do anything wrong, Grunyer.

...huh..
A lot can happen in 24 hours..

Clarius, pointing out rules interactions (like attacking from darkness) is not assisting anyone. It is just pointing out rules. This game isn't adversarial. It has no implication of whether or not anyone wants you playing. Secondly, the GM specifically said that they were new to the 2e rules. Dangerous encounters is an inevitability. Once a GM is familiar with the system, they begin to understand how the system is built to challenge at different levels. A tpk is entirely possible during the learning phase. I've accepted it.

I am grateful that you took up the healer mantle. At early levels (namely 1 and 2, but a little part of 3) damage from enemies can cause hp to be very swingy. This is because hp pools are lower.

GM, I've got no notes.

As for the weapons out thing, I've been playing with that the entire time I've played 2e. There has been various rulings by the GM, essentially in surprise situations or other situations when any wouldn't reasonably have their weapon out.

I can swap characters to a healy oriented witch if need be.

I can swap to a healy wood kineticist if need be.
I have always played that trained adventurers would be carrying weapons out. Which means after first level, being armed in dangerous places is assumed.

I'm still in.
I loved playing a wood earth kin in a home game. Very tanky, very supporty. Kinda bad at damage though... ended up using two action Melee blast with weapon infusion to gain reach. Ended up action starved when I had to move.

Changing from wizard to witch is a big shift as well. I think at least. It's also a lot of fun to play with some big focus spells and shenanigans with familiars.

I don't think either of ya'll will have to change if you don't really want to. Especially if Techno is going to recruit. We can shift the scene into a fighting retreat to make the continuity work.

I can swap to a healy wood kineticist if need be.

I have always played that trained adventurers would be carrying weapons out. Which means after first level, being armed in dangerous places is assumed.

Fair enough. Do spellcasters walk around with a spell ready or do only those who use weapons get this bonus action?

Fair enough. Do spellcasters walk around with a spell ready or do only those who use weapons get this bonus action?

If by spell ready you mean a wand or scroll, absolutely. Or do you mean that normally spellcasters need to use their first Acton in combat to "prepare to do spellcasting" in this hypothetical.

Didn't we already do this?

Scrolls and wands take the same number of actions as the spell… almost all damage dealing spells… two.

Weapon weirder… open door, attack twice.
Spellcaster… open door cast spell.

Or weapon weirder open door, ready weapon, strike
Spellcaster open door, cast spell.

Wands & staves certainly (EDIT: Grunyar also ninja'd me with scrolls :) ) though my witch has a greatsword & my druid had a sling in hand. If they are using the Detect Magic exploration activity, they are already 'casting' a spell before initiative.

Scrolls and wands take the same number of actions as the spell… almost all damage dealing spells… two.

Weapon weirder… open door, attack twice.
Spellcaster… open door cast spell.

Or weapon weirder open door, ready weapon, strike
Spellcaster open door, cast spell.

How about: spellcaster open door, retrieve scroll/wand, cast spe.... oh no

Listen to Jason Buhlman… game designer run Shadows of Otari and see who is correct.

I am not arguing for the rules one way or the other. I will accept my limitations there. :) I am only letting you know how I have always played.

also: Do you have a link?

Depends on who opens the door and what they wield.

1h weapon wielder with no shield: open door, stride, strike
2h full build: open door, draw weapon, stride

caster: open door, cast spell

...seems to me like the caster has the better go of it...

Even if the martials get to keep their weapons in their hands: open door, stride, strike.

caster: open door, cast spell

Yep...caster is still ahead of the game.

Who wins initiative and the tactics of the team is almost always what matters.

I'll take your word for the Jason Buhlman thing. That doesn't change my opinion. It just changes your RAI argument to be stronger. There are plenty of rules/rulings that I disagree with.

Scrolls and wands take the same number of actions as the spell… almost all damage dealing spells… two.

Weapon weirder… open door, attack twice.
Spellcaster… open door cast spell.

Or weapon weirder open door, ready weapon, strike
Spellcaster open door, cast spell.

Ninja'd but I'm keeping it anyway...

More Accurately:
Weapon wielder... open door, stride, attack
Spellcaster... open door, cast spell.

Or
Weapon wielder... ready weapon, open door, stride
spellcaster... open door, cast spell

And the above in both is ignoring the fact that initiative wouldn't have started with the door being closed. Otherwise, you're in a Shrodinger's cat type of state where the encounter has begun because someone has decided to engage the enemy by opening the door but they could change their mind to not open the door but they are in initiative already so they must have opened the door already and see the enemies but the door is still closed... encounter mode has both begun and not begun but you don't really know. And if you don't know which state you're in, how can you know if you have the correct grip on your weapon!? If the encounter hasn't begun, you can't be ready to swing a stick much less a sword. But if it has, you can be sure you're holding on to the sword correctly...

Or you can assume adventurers know how to use the weapons they're at least trained in. Why am I still arguing about this... I have a problem.

I also can't find said video of Jason Bulmahn running Shadows of Otari but I did find this video on his youtube page of people playing the playtest way back in the day. That link should start at the time stamp where they are rolling initiative. If you hang around another couple mins you can see them attacking in the first round without readying weapons.

Even if I did find said video though, a person running their own game (even if it is a designer of said game) does not a rule make. In other words, they can run their game how they like. That doesn't mean the printed rules match the way they run their game.

-_-
...you 1 up'ed me....

well played

Depends on who opens the door and what they wield.

1h weapon wielder with no shield: open door, stride, strike
2h full build: open door, draw weapon, stride

caster: open door, cast spell

...seems to me like the caster has the better go of it...

Even if the martials get to keep their weapons in their hands: open door, stride, strike.

caster: open door, cast spell

Yep...caster is still ahead of the game.

Who wins initiative and the tactics of the team is almost always what matters.

I'll take your word for the Jason Buhlman thing. That doesn't change my opinion. It just changes your RAI argument to be stronger. There are plenty of rules/rulings that I disagree with.

I get it... but you can make any situation work with your viewpoint. How about a ranged weapon user. Crossbow has the load action so it should take two actions to fire... (Or a heavy crossbow 3-actions) do you allow a loaded crossbow to be carried around giving (2) Actions (And ruining the crossbow with stretching out the string). Or a bow user... open door, attack, switch weapons or attack again. And what if the spellcaster is using a ranged touch spell. He can't even cast one this round. All this is averted by making someone spend an action (2-seconds BTW) before attacking. I don't understand why using the balanced math of the system is so provoking. Is there a reason you're playing PF2e instead of 5e or PF1. (And I'm not trying to be snarky here as previously accused, just having a debate and trying to understand why the ready weapon action is such a big deal.

If only I hadn't spent so long browsing his youtube page... hah! My bad.

You don't enter encounter mode till the door is opened...and initiative is rolled, but you already have if you've readied a weapon. Perhaps the person behind the door is open to negotiation until armed people come storming in.

And my bad on who ran the game it's James Rodehaver... but it is Paizo sanctioned and on their channel.

Troubles in Otari

There are feats, and items especially for the swashbuckler and rogue that allow drawing weapons as free actions. letting everyone do this nullifies these items and feats. Why would they exist if they weren't useful?

I get it... but you can make any situation work with your viewpoint. How about a ranged weapon user. Crossbow has the load action so it should take two actions to fire... (Or a heavy crossbow 3-actions) do you allow a loaded crossbow to be carried around giving (2) Actions (And ruining the crossbow with stretching out the string). Or a bow user... open door, attack, switch weapons or attack again. And what if the spellcaster is using a ranged touch spell. He can't even cast one this round. All this is averted by making someone spend an action (2-seconds BTW) before attacking. I don't understand why using the balanced math of the system is so provoking. Is there a reason you're playing PF2e instead of 5e or PF1. (And I'm not trying to be snarky here as previously accused, just having a debate and trying to understand why the ready weapon action is such a big deal.

There are no rules about carrying around a loaded crossbow and strings getting ruined so yes, before combat a person can have a loaded crossbow in hand. Strike, Reload, Strike -- Reload, Strike, Reload --- ect..

Technically there's no rules about having a loaded crossbow stowed but I would think it unreasonable to assume that. A very generous GM can allow it though.

A bow is 1+ hands. They absolutely could open a door (or interact with anything else) and strike twice.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the spellcaster using ranged touch spells but not being able to do so. I'm not understanding the premise. No such thing as touch spells in 2e. Ranged spells would still require you to beat the ac or force a save and still only take (usually) two actions to cast.

You state your assumption that requiring an action to "ready" a weapon is part of the math of the game. I don't agree with that statement.

I'm playing 2e as I like the three action system and there's a bunch of character builds I still want to try. I find 5e to be broken beyond enjoyability and I am still in a couple 1e games.

It's a big deal to me as the incongruity of a trained warrior not having his weapon ready as he explores a dangerous place just doesn't make sense.

ADENDUM

NPCs being willing to negotiate or not has nothing to do with being able to swing a weapon without having to ready it. That argument brings nothing to this situation.

So your claiming of the lead designer doing it this way turns out to be, "It's sanctioned by Paizo and on their page."

Giving it a fair shake though. I'm listening to the video you linked and I'm not getting the same thing you did from them. In the first combat, the adventurers are exploring a cellar, not an obviously dangerous situation. In the second combat vs the spider (@ about an hour 40), Gristle comes face to face with the spider and using her sword as a light source. Her first action(s) that combat was to power attack. No mention of using an action to "ready" a weapon.

There's.... hours of video, do you have a specific video or timestamp I should see?

The use of those feats, quickdraw or something like it I assume, is to be able to change weapons mid-combat more efficiently. There's still a use for them outside of the notion that everyone needs to spend an action to ready a weapon.

My 2 cents regarding the closed door situation:

If the party understands there might be a threat beyond the door, I believe it can reasonable that everyone would prepare their item (weapon, staff, etc) for when the door opens.

Also, since, as stated above, the encounter has not begun until the door opens and foes noticed, the PC would not have the 'open, stride, strike' combo (with certain specific exceptions).

Since whatever is beyond the door can be anticipated, but not identified, I would think it reasonable to:

PC Actions 1 & 2) Have a prepared action to move or strike depending upon the trigger after the door opens and the encounter begins.

PC Action 3) Open the door

GM Action: Roll initiative. Begin encounter

The reason the 'open, stride, strike' combo shouldn't work, IMHO, is the difference between exploration mode and Encounter Mode. Of course, there are going to be exceptions. I ran a tabletop game a few months ago, and there was plenty of door openings and closings in the middle of an encounter.

All of that said, there is a glaring imbalance between martial characters and spellcasting characters. RAW has the prepared action can only be a single action -- so, no two-action spells or abilities. The mage can prepare to cast shield or a single-action heal/harm, but, not a regular spell (by regular, I mean two-action). The melee/ranged fighter-type, can use two actions to prepare to strike/shove/disarm, etc.

I miss the days when PCs could carry over a multi-action action across turns. So, for instance, a summon spell takes three actions. In ancient times (AD&D, D&D 3 for example), a PC could start summoning in one turn, and finish the next (worrying about disruption of the spell of course). Alas, that is not in the current ruleset.

===============

As long as we can keep this discussion civil, I have no problem with the discussion -- even with the Appeal to Authority. BTW, I often write my longer diatribes, then reread them, then edit them to remove anything personal or nasty. Sometimes, I write nasty stuff, then edit it away. It makes me feel better <<grin>>

I don't understand the appeal to the balance of math. Opening a door or readying a weapon doesn't really change the math a whole lot. It is the third action concept. As long as an individual gets one attack off, they do so with no MAP. Getting a second off is nifty. And a third is generally useless. In the current combat, I had Arc not have his staff out because he was reading the book.

As Grunyer pointed out, there are certainly uses of quick draw even when a weapon can be ready outside of combat. And, as previously stated, it is sensical that weapons would be ready when knowingly entering dangerous situations.

It certainly changed the math for Clarius that round. If the enemy had to ready their weapon the Archer wouldn't have had a second attack which damaged him, and the swordsman wouldn't have had an action to attack which criticaled him. Then Grunyar wouldn't have had to spend an action to "Lay on Hands", and no actions would have to be spent to rise from prone and pick up weapon. That (2) Second action changed the whole encounter.

Also, you can't just pick and choose imposing reality on the encounters. It's been said many times that it is sensical that weapons would be ready... but it's not sensical to assume that carrying a loaded crossbow is not only dangerous, but WOULD stretch out the gut strings, stress the wooden arms and make the weapon both unreliable and weaker. Imposing "Sensical" on a Fantasy Role Playing game with monsters and magic is at best an exercise in futility. This is a "rules balance" issue not a reality issue.

The Ready Action allows you to spend two actions to prep a reaction or single action... so you can't ready an action to attack, then open a door and attack. There aren't enough actions left.

◆◆ Ready Action
◆ Open Door (The Ready action is sacrificed since it wasn't triggered). So, in this instance before entering encounter mode and using no published exploration activity the character has.

◆ Ready Weapon (Heavy Crossbow)
◆◆ Load Weapon
◆◆ Ready Action to strike when the door is open
◆ Open Door
◆ STRIKE

All before initiative is rolled and anyone acts. If all the characters do this and all the enemies, it turns into a mess.

Got to get some work done, but later I'll post a deluge of examples as to why this does impact the game.

Real quick, I believe there is a conflation of issues going on.

The action Ready (Big R) takes two actions to prepare to use a single action and a trigger and then a reaction when the trigger is fulfilled. This should only be done inside initiative in encounter mode.

Having a weapon readied (little r) means having a weapon ready to use when combat starts. This is outside initiative and combat.

I agree that Ready shouldn't take place before combat. PF2e doesn't work that way with surprise rounds not existing any more. Doing that will definitely change how the game plays and the expectation of balance.

><><><

I'm not engaging with the discussion about the first round because I think that was just bad luck. You are correct that there would be fewer attacks if they did have to ready weapons. That doesn't change the math of the game though. It changed the outcome for sure. The archer still had a -10 on their third attack. Swordsman still had no map on their first. Math is working as intended.

><><><

You're right, we can't just pick and choose when to impose sensibilities. So when I'm presented with the rules about the wear and tear on crossbow strings, I'll reconsider my stance on professional combatants carrying around loaded ranged weapons. In fact, everyone should be able to have a loaded crossbow strapped to their pack. There's no rules about accidental firings or when the bolt falls out of the crossbow.

In that same line of thought, I can't find the rule requiring the first action of combat to be drawing/readying (little r) a weapon. Or rules that a character can't have a weapon readied to use outside initiative.

Sure, the math is/was different. But why is round 1 special? Should we have such hindrances the other rounds? Should I have to draw my weapon again round 2?

My mother passed yesterday... so I'll be AFK the rest of the week.

That is terrible news. Please accept my condolences for you & the family, I was there a year ago. :(

Sorry for your loss.

The Gameplay post is completely screwed up. I got called away in the middle, and all the numbers are different now. And, I can't edit it.

In the original post, Khajuna got a critical success on the Recall Knowledge, and burnt the Wight for a little.

The Wight missed, then crit on Arc.

Just ignore the numbers you see on the weird post.

Hooray level 3!

12 hp gained though drained 1 makes my max 41.

I considered getting both fleet and divine speed to go from 25 to 35 move speed.

Succeeded instead to get divine shield to be on theme.

Now my shield has 64 max hp and hardness 8.

I'll update my sheet asap.

Make sure to update the Macros spreadsheet also, thanks.

Congrats!

Both my home games have reached a level up too :) it might take me a day or two to choose all the level 3 goodness :) The math is easy though :)

Make sure to let us know when you're updated. I'd rather not progress in the dungeon until then.

Everything is all updated including the macro sheet.

42 HP, Willpower saves now expert (6), thievery now expert (9).
I took improved initiative so I will take front line a little more often and use four winds to reposition people earlier in any combat get behind me... errr Grunyer!. I might have messed up the initiative entry of the macro, as I updated the number manually, and undo did not work for a google doc.

Now to pick an 9th level ancestry feat (dwarf/dromaar) for my marriage counselor/thaumaturge in Sky King's Tomb :)

Thanks, I fixed it.

+6 HP
Arcana -> Expert
General Feat: Weapon Proficiency
Spells gained: Floating Flame, Translate

How do I spend build points?

Macros adjusted

If you want to take (or buy) something that is not Common, then 5 build points for an Uncommon or 10 build points for a Rare.

So, for instance, if you wanted to take the Irezoko Tattoo feat, it would cost five build points.

If you wanted to buy a Mnemonic Feather, it would cost an additional 10 build points.

Ah, in that case, I am ready to proceed.

Also, thanks Grunyer for recording. I was planning on doing it when we had finished with the mission or the level, whichever came first.

Thanks Grunyer:)

Since I am not carrying a weapon, I offer to carry everything that someone does not specifically want on them. Please state if you want to be carrying something specific. This is just so we know where everything 'is'. :)

I'm okay too pause and heal up. We've got Grunyer that can do 12 every 10 min on top of Medicine checks.

Medicine checks for those missing more than 12 hp. I can do lay on Hands to top the others off?

Can I repair my shield to refocus? It's only missing 2 hp out of 64 but as a follower of Torag, it makes sense to want to make it right. And I have quick crafting so it only takes one min to do it.

It seems a small thing but I appreciate the note about when treat wounds and battle medicine are avaliable again.

Can I repair my shield to refocus? It's only missing 2 hp out of 64 but as a follower of Torag, it makes sense to want to make it right. And I have quick crafting so it only takes one min to do it.

Sure.

Cool on the refocus bit. Also, I've moved myself on the map from four winds.

Totally misread the restrained part as Restrained the condition. I forgot the drained lowered my fortitude DC enough for that to be a crit success. Although 29 is high enough that it would have been a crit success anyway... reading comprehension fail.

Happens to me all the time...

I blame it on my glasses.

(NOTE: That's all the healing magic Khajuna has.)

I was going to recommend retreat after this fight as well. Drained 2 is starting to impact a lot.

I appear on September 5th to have taken an additional 8 HP from Pneuferro. I have returned them. I went through all the actions since then, and I have adjusted the HP. I also corrected HP for other PCs. That took me about 30 minutes... <<sigh>>

Your status update posts contain a CRAZY amount of information and are very helpful. Your time & efforts are noticed and appreciated! :)