Arcane Trickster Question Surprise Spell

Let's take a Rogue3/Sorcerer4/Arcane Trickster 10
The character has a Sneak Attack of +7d6.
The Surprise Spell Class Feature allows him to add his Sneak Attack damage to any damage dealing spell if the target is flat footed.
Would this bonus apply to each instance of the damage dealing spell if the target would be flat footed?
For example, magic missile would grant him 5 magic missiles, each one dealing 1d4+1 of force damage normally.
Would thus the damage per missile increase to 1d4+1+7d6 points of damage?
Add in a quickened magic missile and he would be able to deal about 290 points of force damage per round. Which would be rather impressive unless the target had shield or spell resistance.

Also, would his draconing bloodline arcana also apply to the bonus damage dice granted by sneak attack. Would thus a scorching ray deal 11d6+11 points of fire damage or only 11d6+4?

Let's take a Rogue3/Sorcerer4/Arcane Trickster 10

The character has a Sneak Attack of +7d6.
The Surprise Spell Class Feature allows him to add his Sneak Attack damage to any damage dealing spell if the target is flat footed.
Would this bonus apply to each instance of the damage dealing spell if the target would be flat footed?
For example, magic missile would grant him 5 magic missiles, each one dealing 1d4+1 of force damage normally.
Would thus the damage per missile increase to 1d4+1+7d6 points of damage?
Add in a quickened magic missile and he would be able to deal about 290 points of force damage per round. Which would be rather impressive unless the target had shield or spell resistance.

Also, would his draconing bloodline arcana also apply to the bonus damage dice granted by sneak attack. Would thus a scorching ray deal 11d6+11 points of fire damage or only 11d6+4?

Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy

descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline’s energy
type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.

Let's subsume it,

matches your draconic bloodline’s energy type: "...and the
additional damage is of the same type as the spell."
---------------------
Yes, you can apply the bonus damage to the sneak attack dice.

Let's take a Rogue3/Sorcerer4/Arcane Trickster 10

The character has a Sneak Attack of +7d6.
The Surprise Spell Class Feature allows him to add his Sneak Attack damage to any damage dealing spell if the target is flat footed.
Would this bonus apply to each instance of the damage dealing spell if the target would be flat footed?
For example, magic missile would grant him 5 magic missiles, each one dealing 1d4+1 of force damage normally.
Would thus the damage per missile increase to 1d4+1+7d6 points of damage?
Add in a quickened magic missile and he would be able to deal about 290 points of force damage per round. Which would be rather impressive unless the target had shield or spell resistance.

Also, would his draconing bloodline arcana also apply to the bonus damage dice granted by sneak attack. Would thus a scorching ray deal 11d6+11 points of fire damage or only 11d6+4?

This question was answered in the Complete Arcane Handbook. On page 86 under Sneak Attacks Multiple hits. "Some weaponlike spelss spells can strike multiple times per round. When the caster gets abonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage) the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether it hits or not

Normally Magic Missile is not considered a weaponlike spell because its an automatic hit and therefore no sneak attack damage. However the Surprise Spell ability alters that rule. Following the above example only the first missile would get sneak attack damage the rest do not. So it would be 5d4+5 + 7d6

Now in your scorching ray example the damage caused by his arcane draconic bloodline is added on to the spell not the sneak attack damage.

This question was answered in the Complete Arcane Handbook. On page 86 under Sneak Attacks Multiple hits. "Some weaponlike spelss spells can strike multiple times per round. When the caster gets abonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage) the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether it hits or not
For example, a 7thlevel/sorcerer/3rdlevel rogue with point blankshot makes a Scorching Ray attack at less than 30 feet (two rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing 4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits it deals 6d6+1 ponts of fire damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack +1 fpr Point Blank Shot, while each subsequently ray deals only 4d6 points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not."

Normally Magic Missile is not considered a weaponlike spell because its an automatic hit and therefore no sneak attack damage. However the Surprise Spell ability alters that rule. Following the above example only the first missile would get sneak attack damage the rest do not. So it would be 5d4+5 + 7d6

Now in your scorching ray example the damage caused by his arcane draconic bloodline is added on to the spell not the sneak attack damage.

But that only applies to the sneak attack a normal rogue would do.

At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

So, I'm not sure if it would still apply to a 10th level arcane trickster.

Also, it seems strange to cite non-core 3.5 books to fix rules that seem a little bit broken in Pathfinder.

Im citing the complete Arcane because it was an issue that was reolved there. Unfortunately the players handbook didnt offer the guidelines on how such attacks should be handled. Lots of confusion being created as to whether a weapon like spell can cause sneak attack or critical damage. Anyway the fireball would cause 10d6 normal +10 from draconic bloodline+7d6 from sneak attack. A better example is scorching ray. The first ray hits and is a confirmed critical that ray would cause 8d6+8(Critical Spell Damage)+7d6(sneak attack)The remaining two rays are your normal 4d6 Im not sure how the Arcane draconic bloodline power works with multiple spell attacks does the damage apply once or does it apply to every seperate attack.

Frostflame wrote:

This question was answered in the Complete Arcane Handbook. On page 86 under Sneak Attacks Multiple hits. "Some weaponlike spelss spells can strike multiple times per round. When the caster gets abonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage) the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether it hits or not
For example, a 7thlevel/sorcerer/3rdlevel rogue with point blankshot makes a Scorching Ray attack at less than 30 feet (two rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing 4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits it deals 6d6+1 ponts of fire damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack +1 fpr Point Blank Shot, while each subsequently ray deals only 4d6 points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not."

Normally Magic Missile is not considered a weaponlike spell because its an automatic hit and therefore no sneak attack damage. However the Surprise Spell ability alters that rule. Following the above example only the first missile would get sneak attack damage the rest do not. So it would be 5d4+5 + 7d6

Now in your scorching ray example the damage caused by his arcane draconic bloodline is added on to the spell not the sneak attack damage.

But that only applies to the sneak attack a normal rogue would do.

At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

So, I'm not sure if it would still apply to a 10th level arcane trickster.

Also, it seems strange to cite non-core...

Well the way I see it boils down t a matter of precision in finding the vital spot. Once being hit the target reacts instantly to the first ray shifting causing the spell caster to loose the vital spot just as the other two rays hit.

Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

Surprise spells is obviously intented to work against multiple targets.

Quote:

Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

Surprise spells is obviously intented to work against multiple targets.

If the sneak attack damage is of the same energy type like the one you chose for Bloodline Arcana you obviously get extra damage on this as well.

Quote:

Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

Surprise spells is obviously intented to work against multiple targets.

When its an area of effect spell yes, now with weaponlike ray spells the rule in 3.5 has always been the first ray gets the extra bonuses. Paizo should give an official answer to clarify exactly how the mechanic works and where the sneak damage and any other bonus applies

Jadeite wrote:

Quote:

Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

Surprise spells is obviously intented to work against multiple targets.

If the sneak attack damage is of the same energy type like the one you chose for Bloodline Arcana you obviously get extra damage on this as well.

So in this example: (10d6 + 10)+(7d6 +7) to all effected by the suprise spell fireball. There can't be an issue, because the wording is clear. But I doubt that this was intended.

The sneak attack damage does not receive extra damage from anywhere else. It counts as 7d6

"This additional damage
only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the
additional damage is of the same type as the spell."

If it is the same energy type you do get bonuses from bloodline arcana.

"Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy
descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline’s energy
type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled."

"This additional damage

only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the
additional damage is of the same type as the spell."

If it is the same energy type you do get bonuses from bloodline arcana.

"Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy
descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline’s energy
type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled."

Sneak attack has always been exception to this rule because it is extra damage in and of itself.

Paizo should give an official answer to clarify exactly how the mechanic works and where the sneak damage and any other bonus applies

That's what I would like to happen. While I may seem rather antagonistic, I'm not in favor of RAW argumentations at all. I was pleased when they removed the possibility of sneakattacking with acid flasks and somehow shocked, when I realized the potential brokeness of the arcane trickster.

Frostflame wrote:

Paizo should give an official answer to clarify exactly how the mechanic works and where the sneak damage and any other bonus applies

That's what I would like to happen. While I may seem rather antagonistic, I'm not in favor of RAW argumentations at all. I was pleased when they removed the possibility of sneakattacking with acid flasks and somehow shocked, when I realized the potential brokeness of the arcane trickster.

Also, Magic Missile isn't a weaponlike spell, so the rulings from Complete Arcane probably wouldn't apply to it. The evoker's special ability is carefully worded that those bonuses only apply to one ray or missile, but surprise spell isn't.
Unless a character has shield cast, the damage of the magic missiles would almost certainly kill him. Even a barbarian would need a constitution of 30 to be able to survive that much damage.
Even a brooch of shielding would only absorb the first 101 points of force damage.

What we got here is the classic case of the writers gettin a little lazy!!!

Very true about Magic Missile not being weapon like spell. Like I stated earlier under normal circumstances it wouldnt receive sneak attack damage. The fairest thing to do would be just one missile gets the sneak damage like the evoker ability, and the rest do not. So you would be applying 1d4+1 +7d6 and 4d4+4 Im sure Paizo would have wanted it that way, hopefully JJ will respond

Nothing modifies sneak attack damage outside of the feat that adds +1d6, the feat that changes all dice to d8s, and the magic item that gives you +1d6 if you have the sneak attack feature.

Sneak attack is what is called 'Precision Damage'. Precision damage isn't affected by anything at all except immunity to precision damage, which very few creatures in PF have.

Precision damage also only applies once per attack roll. Since magic missile has no attack roll, Precision Damage does not apply to it. However: the surprise spell effect DOES apply. If each missile affects a different target, each target takes the 7d6 points of sneak attack damage. If the spell affects only one target, sneak attack damage applies to that single target only once.

Scorching ray is much more effective as a sneak attacking spell.

Aside: Yes, damage from sneak attack deals fire damage from scorching ray, or force damage from magic missile, but it's still precision damage.

When its an area of effect spell yes, now with weaponlike ray spells the rule in 3.5 has always been the first ray gets the extra bonuses. Paizo should give an official answer to clarify exactly how the mechanic works and where the sneak damage and any other bonus applies

While pathfinder is backwards compatible it is not beholden to the rules of 3.5. If it isn't listed as a pathfinder rule then it's not a pathfinder rule -- just a 3.5 rule.

Complete Arcane is a 3.5 book not a pathfinder book and therefore not accurate citation for the pathfinder rule set.

Precision damage also only applies once per attack roll. Since magic missile has no attack roll, Precision Damage does not apply to it. However: the surprise spell effect DOES apply. If each missile affects a different target, each target takes the 7d6 points of sneak attack damage. If the spell affects only one target, sneak attack damage applies to that single target only once.

That is the stupidest thing I've read in days.

"These missiles they are smart ya see? They knows iffin you target one bloke, and they knows iffin you target many -- iffin you target the many they chooses to deal more damage -- iffin you target the one the refuse to do the more damage."

Wolf Alexander Vituschek wrote:

"This additional damage

only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the
additional damage is of the same type as the spell."

If it is the same energy type you do get bonuses from bloodline arcana.

"Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy
descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline’s energy
type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled."

Sneak attack has always been exception to this rule because it is extra damage in and of itself.

Rules citation or it isn't so.

Frostflame wrote:

Wolf Alexander Vituschek wrote:

"This additional damage

only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the
additional damage is of the same type as the spell."

If it is the same energy type you do get bonuses from bloodline arcana.

"Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy
descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline’s energy
type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled."

Sneak attack has always been exception to this rule because it is extra damage in and of itself.

Rules citation or it isn't so.

You know that you are arguing about a post that was made more than one and a half year ago, right?

You know that you are arguing about a post that was made more than one and a half year ago, right?

Darn necromancers -- I didn't look to see if it was recent as someone else had posted and brought the thread back up, and it had multiple "new" posts in it according to when I opened the thread. shrugs oh well, I blame Purplefixer.

*blush*

*cough*

Ahem... sorry... My bad... >.>

I tend to open a lot of tabs on my browser so I can finish reading lots of things at one time while doing things like waiting for a requisite flash to run it's course. I didn't look at the posting dates, I just responded.

Bump on this? It would seem that since the damage applies once per attack roll, that scorching ray would in fact receive that damage on each ray? Even if you are attacking multiple targets...just like a normal sneak attack. The Magic Missile thing is kind of odd, since they are all supposed to strike at the same time...I guess it would be difficult to target 5 different sensitive body areas with 5 different missiles, so you would be hitting one area with all 5 at the same time...resulting in the damage? Logically, it's a conundrum. All that is truly important is what the result is here.