Co-GM's: Threshold (Inactive)

Game Master stormraven

OK, time to herd some cats and make some decisions…

Ok, time to clarify votes!

Gestalt is ok, especially the 1.5 variant of everyone's ok with that

Drawback? Yes as long as it's interesting

Maps? Eh. Up to DM preference is fine by me

Races: core, featured, standard is fine with me

Re:gestalt 1.5

I'm glad you like the idea! I agree with your level progressions too. That should make most of not all levels interesting as far as new abilities!
I've also never played it because I was running the game I tested it with, so playing with it would be nice!

Thanks for the confirmation, Choon! I've updated your responses in my offline copy. I'll post the latest and greatest 'Cat Herding' results when more folks have confirmed, denied, or cursed me out. ;P

The thing that has me excited is, if we can answer many of these questions today we can start brainstorming character builds immediately which is always a good time as far as I'm concerned.

Ugh... that reminds me, a follow-on question:

How do you guys like to do HP? Max at all levels, half+1, roll half + add half (so a d6 would be d3+3, a d10 would be d5+5), straight roll and cry when you roll a 1, or something else?

I’m impressed by the discussion here, but, to be brutally honest, I don’t think I’m the right person for this game.

I again appreciate the invitation, but I will gracefully bow out.

Thanks again.

Well that's unfortunate.

As a GM, I prefer to use the roll half + add half, or I've also offered one reroll per Con modifier. So a sorcerer with a +1 con modifier would roll 2d6, taking the highest.

As a player, max sounds great!

Realistically, I think rolling for hit points, and if the result is less than half+1, you get half+1, is the best way to go.

Thanks for letting us know, Dink. Happy Gaming!

I'm flexible on the HP method but I agree that having a bottom of half+1 is good. While the mechanic is slightly different accepting a minimum of half+1 and rolling half dice and adding the other half (d6 = 1d3+3) nets you the same possible outcomes. The only difference is you are much more likely to get a value above that minimum... so it tips to scales in favor of the player.

re:Dink's departure... never fear valiant co-GMs! I'm called Stormraven because I keep a weather eye on possible problems and always have a backup plan. :) Our game shall not be disrupted.

Hello? Oh, I see.

Whew, getting called as an alternate already had me wondering if you guys were in here playing Russian Roulette.

Now that I see that is not the case, thank you for inviting me! I'll run through the posts as I can this morning to get caught up.

Post to get clarification on my preferences….

25pt buy: yes (confirmed)
Type of Gestalt: no preference; both look fun (I’ll weigh in if we need a tie broken)
BG skills: Yes
2 Traits: Yes
3rd Trait + BG: Yes
Path of War/Spheres: No (if we’re going Gestalt)
Maps: GM discretion
Playable Races (C, F, & S): Yes

HP’s / Level: half + roll half

Farewell Dink, Greetings Rdnight!

HP: I usually do half+1, but half+roll half is cool too!
I prefer the half roll because I like HP.

Whew, getting called as an alternate already had me wondering if you guys were in here playing Russian Roulette.

Russian Roulette isn't scheduled until Day 4 of the campaign. Do we look like amateurs??? :P

Thanks for jumping in here so quick, Red. I'm going to call you Red, if you don't mind. I mean, I could go with Rad or Rid or Rod, if you prefer. :) I suppose RD is on the table too. I get hit with SR enough that I shouldn't be surprised by that.

With Stormraven's handy template, I can get some thing out of the way very quickly.

OK with 25 pts: Yes

Gestalt vs standard: Yes. I've only had a couple of chances to ever try gestalt out, and the games always ended very quickly. I'd like to try in in a game where I'd actually get to level up and see what it's like.

Type of Gestalt: From my limited experience, action economy is the bottleneck that keeps gestalt characters on their leash. There are tricky ways around this I guess, but I'm not terribly interested in being clever that way. I don't think full gestalt is a problem, but I also like the 1/2 gestalt idea. Either is good.

Background Skills: Yes. This is the standard around here these days. It just makes so much sense and I've seen it have a very positive effect on what players can do with their characters. They actually have professions! Hobbies!

2 Traits: Yes please.

3rd Trait + Drawback: Yes please, if the drawback is played.

Path of War: I don't know anything about PoW myself. I'm going to say no because I'm also fairly newly in a Savage Worlds game where I'm still learning the rules, etc. My bandwidth for new rule sets is kinda low right now.

Spheres: As with PoW.

Automatic Bonus Progression: Never used this, but the people I know who have think it's great. Sure.

Adopting the use of Maps for all GMs: I like maps. Yes.

Good and Neutral Party Only: My character will be within this grouping so fine with me.

Playable Races – Core, Featured, and Standard: I can't tell you why. I can't explain it. But I don't like menagerie parties. I guess it somehow violates an aesthetic I hold that unless a group of exotic characters is the plot or narrative point of the campaign by design, characters ought to largely, more or less, match the races around them. It doesn't have to perfectly by any means, but when a Grippoli, Kasantha, Nagaji, Shabti, and Goblin walk into a bar, it just kills immersion for me. I guess I'm just a conservative old fuddy-duddy that way.

Uh, alright. I'll leave the automatic at home on day 4.

You can call me Rick. Red is fine too. My son has red hair.

As I start thinking about character possibilities, a question for you all.

Are there any particular classes or character types you tend to gravitate toward or play habitually?

In my case it's really hard to stay away from classes or features that give skill points. I hate not having skill points. I also play human about half the time at least.

Also, I believe this will be a Golarion based setting? What would y'all like as a (starting at least) location? This is also something I factor into character building decisions.

Hey, Rick, it's not quite that straight-forward... Start reading HERE.

Uh, alright. I'll leave the automatic at home on day 4.

I mean, it'd shorten the game. That's not nothing, Rick. :)

(also, welcome aboard!)

The issue I'm having is that I have a handful of ideas that I like, but none that I love so far. I have one idea that would look really good with full gestalt, but given how it would play, may become a bit lackluster in 1.5 gestalt. Not that I'm pushing to go full gestalt. Just looking over my concepts.

As far as my general character-building tendencies ... um. I also like skill points (because I dont like having little to nothing to do in any given situation). I also tend to like "average"-looking races, so you'll see a lot of human and half-human stuff.

My love for flexibility always makes me enjoy shapeshifting characters (druids, lycans, etc).

Thematically, I always dig the "is more than they seem" angle. (which also reinforces the shapeshifting thing, too.)

But honestly, I'd love to hear others' thoughts on what they're leaning towards, as I'm struggling to develop my own front-runner.

More cats, more herding…

Russian Roulette with an automatic… now that is hardcore!
The birdy slides Eben a sidelong glance… You’re waffling on the type of gestalt? There is no WAFFLING in this DOJO! (jk)

OK, we have some definitive results by unanimous or near unanimous consent…
25 Point Buy, Gestalt * <-- see below!
Background Skills are being used
2 Traits plus a 3rd Trait with a Drawback (player choice)
Playable Races are: Core, Featured and Standard
Alignment: Good or Neutral
Automatic Bonus Progression is in play
We will not be using Path of War or Spheres

By simple majority the following conditions are also in play:
Use of Maps is each GM’s Choice
HPs after 1st are: ½ Die + ½ pts (d6 = 1d3+3, d8 = 1d4+4)

* OK, there is one open question left before we can start building characters… the type of gestalt game we’re playing. The current preferences stand at:
Choon = Variant 1.5
Eben = Full or 1.5 (waffle king)
Nick = ?
RD = Full or 1.5
SR = Variant 1.5

So, guys, pick your poison because the vote could go either way. Once we have that decided, it’s time to strategerizificate on classes, races, and team play!

WAFFLE-MAAAAAAANN!

I mean, looking at that break-down, we have 2 people who would prefer 1.5, two who don't care, and one who hasn't weighed in.

/shrug

From a simple majority standpoint, it seems like 1.5 is in the lead. :)

Are there any particular classes or character types you tend to gravitate toward or play habitually?

I'm a skill slut.

I think about race after class, and often think about race in terms of potentially party dynamics and what would be fun. I tend to go human... almost never elf, half-elf, or half-orc.

All that said, I prefer to see everyone pick their favorite class to play and then I decide what I'll play based on obvious party need and/or what seems like would be fun. LOL. I guess that wasn't much help, eh?

Maybe we should each just throw out a few of our favorite classes and see what that looks like?

WAFFLE-MAAAAAAANN!... From a simple majority standpoint, it seems like 1.5 is in the lead. :)

Great movie!

If Nick weighs in with a preference for Full gestalt then it still comes down to you and Rick having to commit to a position. Either/Or don't cut it son!

I'm fine with waiting on your votes. But a 10/10 gestalt vs a 10/5 gestalt is a very different beast and my character choices will likely be quite different based on that. My character thoughts are in a 'holding pattern' until this decision is reached.

Not trying to pressure you guys into a judgment, just letting you know my thoughts. As you well know, Eben, I'm a patient spider. >:)

Full gestalt - yes please

Maps = GM choice

Good align = yes

As far as characters, I'd say 80% of my characters are divine.

Ah, I was scanning quickly and didn't realize there's a variant on gestalt 1.5 as such. I like the one you posted the 10 levels for, which is the variant I guess.

That makes me full or variant 1.5

Oh, well, if Nick thinks full then I'm voting full Gestalt ... and forcing Ricky to make the call. :)

(There's no bad answer here, Ricky. Just vote whichever tickles your fancy more.)

Rick goes from "see ya next game" to "decide what we're playing" in the space of 2.5 hours. LOL

Does this help?

Characters I gravitate towards:
I have a deep and enduring love in my heart for meat shields, but I'm currently working through a minor existential crisis. I was told to bring up a character I always wanted to play. I think I have a concept, but it's a new concept and the backlog I have... it's not small. XD

Spitballing. The second class listed would be the 0.5 if we go that way:

If We're Do-Gooders:
NG Human Sister-in-Arms Cavalier / Warpriest of Kurgess. (Redemption and repayment for past ill deeds. When she wears armor, she wears THE armor, specifically because it is shaming.)

Middle of the Road:
N or CG Human Antiquarian Investigator / Inspired Blade Swashbuckler (Greedy, aristocratic dealer in antiquities, likes to go find them herself.)

NG Sylph Sky Druid / Ashifta Witch (Socially awkward refugee from Galt trying to fit in. Meek and a pleaser but nosey. If you watched Yellowjackets, think Misty but without the nasty sociopathy and sadism.)

Getting Wacky:
CN Human Seducer-Mirror Witch / Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric. (Not grim and dark, but quite batty. Doesn't really understand what she's doing, can't be told either. You'll want to date her but don't.)

Well, if that's the kind of power you're willing to hand over to me...

FULL GESTALT!!!

Just because I can say so.

And because Nick deserves a win on something. :p

Dude... "minor existential crisis" that is an oxymoron is like five different ways. LOL

In terms of classes I love...

Sorcerer - accept no substitutes
Monk - usually uMonk (no archetype) or Zen Archer
Rogue - cuz YEAH
Ranger/Slayer - I mean it's a swiss army knife
Cleric/Warpriest - in the right team dynamic
Samurai or a warrior-type - if I'm doing a fighty-type of any ilk they are fast and lightly armored

At one time or another I've played pretty much every standard class so I don't object to any of them really, particularly when you add that Gestalt Sriracha Sauce that makes every combo SPICY!

Well, if that's the kind of power you're willing to hand over to me...

FULL GESTALT!!!

Just because I can say so.

And because Nick deserves a win on something. :p

LOL! Man, when you come off the fence, you really do it!

OK, guys, the game is set to Full gestalt!

We should clarify one other thing about it... I'm assuming we are putting limits on the gestalt... 2 classes only picked at 1st, no prestige classes (especially those ones that allow you to gain a caster level ON TOP of the caster level you'd gain from your primary casting class - naughty min-maxer!), and no dips?

Or maybe, since I love the Archaeologist Bard so much, one of those with Lore Warden Fighter added...

I like the new guy. He's going to do just fine.

:grizzled old guy pointing with his cigar:

"Ya got heart, kid. Yur gonna go places."

We should clarify one other thing about it... I'm assuming we are putting limits on the gestalt... 2 classes only picked at 1st, no prestige classes (especially those ones that allow you to gain a caster level ON TOP of the caster level you'd gain from your primary casting class - naughty min-maxer!), and no dips?

Yes, some limits are likely good.

No dips: agreed (unnecessary w/ gestalt)
No prestige classes: disagree. They can open up totally new abilities/concepts
No Prestige Classes that double caster level: agreed
Only 2 classes: other than Prestige Classes, I’m good with this

No dips: agreed (unnecessary w/ gestalt)
No prestige classes: disagree. They can open up totally new abilities/concepts
No Prestige Classes that double caster level: agreed
Only 2 classes: other than Prestige Classes, I’m good with this

Sounds fine to me.

Full Gestalt it is! Woo!

Ok, here we go. Time to crack some knuckles and see if I can't also decide on something.

Concept 1: I kinda wanna try shaman because that class is nutty. But what the other side would be I have no idea. Ancestors barbarian? Character idea? He's a spiritualist herding the echos of his past lives around.

Concept 2: Dwarf Swashbuckler wielding either a pickax or a battleax with Slashing Grace. Might end up going paladin or cavalier archetypes that mimic swashbuckler, maybe.

Concept 3: something specializing in explosions. Probably alchemist.

Or honestly a slew of others. I have one focusing on channeling that can kinda mimic the Force from Star Wars. I have a Oradin that's just OP sometimes. Take your pick.

stormraven wrote:

We should clarify one other thing about it... I'm assuming we are putting limits on the gestalt... 2 classes only picked at 1st, no prestige classes (especially those ones that allow you to gain a caster level ON TOP of the caster level you'd gain from your primary casting class - naughty min-maxer!), and no dips?

Yes, some limits are likely good.

No dips: agreed (unnecessary w/ gestalt)
No prestige classes: disagree. They can open up totally new abilities/concepts
No Prestige Classes that double caster level: agreed
Only 2 classes: other than Prestige Classes, I’m good with this

Those seem perfectly reasonable.

Also, since I added it to a post as an edit and it might have gotten missed before, any thoughts/preferences/demands regarding a general starting location on Golarion?

It might have a impact on character choices like Druid, or archetypes that tend to be more regional, deities that are commonly worshipped, etc.

We're going to be introduced to a kind of hub world in the first adventure, so don't worry about location.

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

stormraven wrote:

We should clarify one other thing about it... I'm assuming we are putting limits on the gestalt... 2 classes only picked at 1st, no prestige classes (especially those ones that allow you to gain a caster level ON TOP of the caster level you'd gain from your primary casting class - naughty min-maxer!), and no dips?

Yes, some limits are likely good.

No dips: agreed (unnecessary w/ gestalt)
No prestige classes: disagree. They can open up totally new abilities/concepts
No Prestige Classes that double caster level: agreed
Only 2 classes: other than Prestige Classes, I’m good with this

Those seem perfectly reasonable.

Agreed.

Also, since I added it to a post as an edit and it might have gotten missed before, any thoughts/preferences/demands regarding a general starting location on Golarion?

It might have a impact on character choices like Druid, or archetypes that tend to be more regional, deities that are commonly worshipped, etc.

If you have a concept you like that is tied to a specific location, blow out the concept. If you end up choosing it, I'd suggest you and Stormraven can work out how they get introduced into the campaign. :)

Oh, so we won't be playing in the Golarion setting? If that's the case never mind!

I'm trying to square this circle... you're saying you are in favor of allowing prestige classes as part of the build but not additional standard classes? I think your argument about prestige classes 'opening up new abilities' applies just as readily to 'dips' in other classes.

Looking at the PrC list, with 'out' indicating classes that no longer exist because of the double spell thing:

Prestige Classes
Arcane Archer - out
Arcane Trickster - out
Assassin
Chronicler
Dragon Disciple - out
Duelist
Eldritch Knight - out
Loremaster - out
Mystic Theurge - out
Shadowdancer

Advanced Prestige Classes
Battle Herald
Holy Vindicator - out
Horizon Walker
Master Chymist – out? (extracts act like spells)
Master Spy
Nature Warden - out
Rage Prophet - out
Stalwart Defender

Thinking about what is left... pretty much any caster can only take prestige classes related to a non-casty class they may have. Seems a little biased to me.

Hmmmmm

It's kinda fuzzy if we will or now? Just build out the character and we'll work it in, I think.

The game starts in Golarion. So you can definitely use Golarion races/cultures as your character background. The nature of this game will mean we likely won't stay here for all adventures. :)

How about "PrC casting progression overrides the progression of the base class". Also then, "Your PrC can only affect the side of the gestalt it's attached to". meaning if you have a rogue sorc going arcane trickster you're going to have to go either Roguex/Sorcx [arcane tricksterx] OR Roguex [arcane tricksterx]/Sorcx

Or Something / Roguex; sorcx; tricksterx ?

Thoughts?

Oh, so we won't be playing in the Golarion setting? If that's the case never mind!

It comes down to GM's choice on a mission-by-mission basis. One DM may have you dinking around outside Absolom and another could place you in the Osirian deserts. So, I would try to build your character with an eye to being 'anywhere' or (if you really want to go down a terrain-specific build) know that your Desert Druid is going to run into rough sledding when the DM says, "So you are at the Teeth of the World and, with windchill, it is -8 degrees."

I'm also maybe considering something like an ultimate Sarenite dervish with the Dawnflower Dervish archetypes of Bard and Fighter.

Not terribly place specific but definitely Golarion branded.

How about "PrC casting progression overrides the progression of the base class". Also then, "Your PrC can only affect the side of the gestalt it's attached to". meaning if you have a rogue sorc going arcane trickster you're going to have to go either Roguex/Sorcx [arcane tricksterx] OR Roguex [arcane tricksterx]/Sorcx

Thoughts?

Or, more simply, you just say that you get all the bonuses of the prestige class EXCEPT the caster level bump.

But to my mind, this issue is basic parity. I suggested no additional classes (dips or PrCs) so that the game is absolutely equitable. You walk in to the game with two classes at full levels... make it work. When you start saying PrCs are OK but dipping isn't - I just don't see a difference between the two. A level in another class is a level in another class. So my thought was 'turn the spigot OFF'. But perhaps I've just dealt with too many min/maxers over the years so I am jaded.

We've worked together so far to come up with build rules, now we just work together to build a party of characters. In your initial recruitment post, you highlighted that you're not looking for all-stars who want to hog the spotlight, and I get the general sense that A). none of us are that, or B). we're agreed to not do that. That said, I wouldn't ban anything at this point.

While I hope to be a part of this for a great long while, most games flame out within a year or two, if not way sooner, and we're not even level 1 yet. I think as long as we communicate our thoughts and ideas, and as a group decide on what we want, we should be fine. Gestalt is still limited by action economy and attributes, so our 25-point build will help keep us in check.

Also keep in mind that the gestalt rules limit progression to the one side that qualifies. As Choon said, you would have to go Rogue and Sorcerer on the same Gestalt side to go Arcane Trickster. You can't take Rogue on one side and Sorcerer on the other side and still qualify for Arcane Trickster.

I agree with Nick in that the gentleman's agreement we set up at the beginning effectively nips any extreme min-maxing in the bud. We all agreed to a high degree of collaboration here, so we don't have to outlaw much. If someone gets uncomfortable with how a character will work, just ask. Talk about it. Something that is super strong on paper could be played in a way that shines the spotlight on another character, negating the worries about limelight stealing (if that was the concern).

I just came up with another concept. Dagnabbit!

It is true that we could delay PrC and Dipping decisions just a bit and see how things are going before making a final decision.

Personally I'm new enough to gestalt to not have any opinions grounded in anything concrete yet.

Oh! Maybe a Warrior Poet Cavalier / Pei Zin Practitioner Oracle of Time who honors Shelyn through the practice of Wabi Sabi and Kintsugi!

Or a Geisha Bard / Seducer Witch!

I'm really loving the idea of using some of the archetypes that I've always thought are neat, but would probably never choose normally.

But my brain is melting under all the possibilities...

This part of the discussion also might come down to trust. Do youall trust me/the others to not break the game? I know we just met, but we were all pulled in for our qualities as Players/DM's. I hope our first adventures will show that we can trust each other with a little more freedom than we'd give the newbie rando on these boards.