Co-GM's: Threshold

Game Master stormraven

DISCO!
Greetings guys, gals, gender-non-binary, f@<k-you-n-yur-labels, and I-self-identify-as-a-wood-nymph folks! We are happy you’ve joined this party and we hope it lasts a very, very long time.

We’ve kept you in the dark on many aspects of the game until now. We are sorry about that but it seemed necessary. Here is where we’ll explain why we did it and openly discuss all matters going forward.

We hid the truth for a few reasons. Mostly, (as we stated) we wanted to gather like-minded players. We also wanted to weed out folks that jump on certain game types to fulfill their gaming fantasies… the ones that want to play a specific game because of build rules, or class options, or beloved 3PP content, or min-maxing opportunities, or love for a particular adventure path. We have no objections to people that are motivated by any of that, but it isn’t our preferred dish.

And here is the factor that would have had those people banging down the doors of this game like a pack of starving wolves… The build parameters for this game are undefined. WE - as a group of five - are going to decide the build parameters for the game, right now. We will debate options and vote, simple majority wins. Hence the reason Eben and I settled on 5 players – no ties are possible. Anyone can offer a build parameter and argue why they’d like to play with it. Counter opinions are also welcome. It ends when everyone has had their say and we all vote. Period. We accept the result and move on. This is a truly democratic process. Eben and I are not colluding behind the scenes, and we are not a ‘voting block’ that will stand together. We vote as individuals based on our differing opinions. Everyone at this table has an equal say and equal vote.

After we decide on the build parameters, we hope you guys will be amenable to discussing character ideas as a group, ping ideas off one another, figure out cool synergies, and get down to building our characters. I will provide more details on the world at that point. I’d like to dive into that as a separate exercise after we settle on the parameters, if you guys don’t mind.

So, the table is set and the banquet laid… you guys ready to dig in?

I’m honoured to have been chosen and excited to consider the options.

(It’s a short post because I just caught up with the thread and then saw my name in bold at the very bottom. And it’s late night. I promise to read more promptly starting tomorrow!)

Yooooooo! Color me stoked, everyone.

Welcome, Dinketry. (and welcome to Nicky and Choon as soon as you arrive, as well.)

I just woke up, and my brain is mush, so I'll leave this brief until after I've poured some battery acid I mean coffee into my system.

When Stormraven and I decided to launch his game, we were a group of 2 collaborators. Now we're a group of 5, and everyone's creative input matters greatly. I'm excited to see where this thing will take us.

*staggers off to caffeinate*

So if 2 peeps makes us 'collaborators', and with Dink we are now 3 'conspirators'... would our 4th make us a 'quartet of creators'?

What happens when the whole team assembles? Does that make us... *dramatic pause* a Murder of Creativity?

I have to admit that appeals to my little raveny heart.

That's way better than a gaggle of gamers.

I'm pretty sure with all five that makes us Voltron.

As has already been said, I'm honored, and humbled and excited for the opportunity to establish something lengthy and from ground zero.

As far as build parameters, I think it depends on what we're looking to do but as an opening salvo I'll suggest the following:

25-point
Gestalt
Background Skill
Traits + Drawback

I would like to explore Path of War and Spheres more as I have only encountered them and never used them myself, but both offer a lot of additional flexibility.

DIBS on the Green Lion-bot!

Ooh ... ooh ... I'll be yellow. That's the a$$-kickin' foot!

Good to see ya in-thread, Nickadeamous. Can I shorten that to Nick? Nicky?

Either is fine. I've been called worse.

I'd go for a Congress of Crazy, but that's just me.

Thankyou very much for trusting me to be involved with this process. This is certainly unique and I hope we can all form an excellent creative team!

I'd also like to note that I'm the one that brought us up to Murder in Raven's eyes. *evil steeple fingers*

As for initial build opinions, I'd like to not go completely off into crazytown. What I mean by that is, if we do gestalt, let's not also do spheres or Path of War. If we do one of those, let's not do Gestalt. I'm all for a nutty character now and again, but when alternate systems start to pile up I feel like I start seeing stat blocks more than Characters.

Welcome all!

Stormraven is a mouthful to write so feel free to go with SR, or Stormy, or 'you there' or Justin. I answer to any of the above or anything that seems vaguely directed toward me.

To date, I've been acting as sort of the Master of Ceremonies for this shindig - more of a herding cats kind of job really - but I'm cogent of the fact that it may leave the impression that I am 'in charge'. I'm not. However, to avoid that impression and the appearance of undue influence it may seem I have, I'm going to wait to respond to what others suggest and be careful how I throw my 2 cents in to the discussion.

This is all a long-winded way of saying that I hear what you are suggesting Nick for game parameters and I'm not ignoring you. I just intend to wait for others to throw out their thoughts before I give my preferences. And, again, I'm happy to go with the team decision. As a DM and player, I can roll with a lot of punches.

I will say this, though, I think it makes sense that we consider a variety of parameters at the same time to figure out the balance we like. For instance, assuming we all agree that build points are the way to go, then the # of points and gestalt (or not to gestalt) should be considered together. My logic on that would be... if we go gestalt, then some folks are going to pick combos that require a few strong ability scores, so a little bump in the point total may make sense.

Further, I'll throw out that Eben and I have both played in games where the point buy was higher than 25, so we don't necessarily have to limit ourselves to 25. I think it kind of comes down to the BDH question... do we wanna make Big Damn Heroes or more regular joes?

Just food for thought.

Choon kinda ninja'd me there with way less words. That sort of balancing of factors is what I mean.

I'll review Paths of War, Spheres of Power, and Background skills.

Confession: I haven't touched PF1 in a few years now, and I'm also actively juggling 3 other gaming systems (Savage Worlds, Genesys, and PF2 ... none of which are really alike at all).

All that to say: I'm similarly hesitant to pile on multiple optional systems. But I'll start digging into those to make sure I know what I'm talking about as we throw ideas out.

Plucking at the low-hanging fruit... I am on board with:
* Background Skills
* 2 traits

I'm flexible on getting a third trait for a drawback.

I'm 3 years rusty on the system so I will need to review Path of War and Spheres to see how I feel about them.

Background skills are, in my opinion, an effortless addition. It's just 2 extra free skill points to put into certain limited skills deemed more RP than Crunch.
The other two are... more complex. They aren't bad. Not by any stretch, but they do add a lot of very different things to the game. I've never actually built a character with them.
2 traits are standard for my games. I require that drawbacks have an impact on your character. A never-used drawback is... never used. And therefore may as well not be there. Which is the definition of boring.

Re: BDH?
I'm undecided right now. I've run a game where the PC's were literal demi-gods (that tale begins here) and I've been an average joe. I think you're right in that what we do will be very influenced by that question.
Which would I prefer? I don't know?
Does anyone have a preference?

Avg Joe vs BDH: What if we actually did both? :D

By that I mean, what if we started with a more mundane point buy (20 or 25), but maybe there's an additional stat enhancement (in addition to the standard +1 / 4 levels). That way, we can become BDH's over time. But start a bit more modest.

I kind of dig that idea.

Automatic Bonus Progression could help in that regard. It tends to make looting and bookkeeping a little less burdensome. Just a suggestion.

It may also help to discuss the first adventure somewhat. As I understand Stormy is 'first in the barrel', is there anything about the adventure that may influence some of these choices? As an example, the paizo adventure paths and player's guides. If we have an idea of the adventure that awaits, we may start thinking of character concepts, which may influence some of the build rules we're exploring. Again, just a thought.

Also, what about maps? Are we using them? If so, what environment; roll20 or google slides?

@Eben's suggestion... I like that. I do like 25 point buy, especially if we go gestalt. I often end up picking a couple classes that have different key abilities. And I rarely do the min/max thing where I pick an archetype of one class that allows it to change it's key ability so I can squeeze the last ounces of efficiency out of my ability scores. I'd rather play the classes and archetypes that meet my vision and not worry about having optimized ability scores.

Hmm... again, just my two cents here. Take it or leave it.

For maps, I was planning on building them in MapTool and IconTool and then putting them on Roll20. But I could just as easily drop the static maps in Google Slides or whatever. I used Dropbox back in the day and I could do that again. I'm flexible to what works for you guys.

My initial idea was to let each DM do their own thing... so if you are into Theatre-of-the-mind or trash maps, have at it. I find maps easier to use and aesthetically pleasing, but that is just me. That said... if you guys would prefer we standardize on a method for all DM's - OK.

As I understand Stormy is 'first in the barrel', is there anything about the adventure that may influence some of these choices? As an example, the paizo adventure paths and player's guides. If we have an idea of the adventure that awaits, we may start thinking of character concepts, which may influence some of the build rules we're exploring.

I understand the desire to know more. I'm torn between wanting to keep some surprises for you guys (including Eben) and being candid with fellow DMs... Gah! OK, let me try to thread the needle here. Post upcoming...

I love when other people make Stormraven do extra work. I get so bored of being the only person making him pull his hair out. :D

OOoooh, and I love Nick's Automatic Bonus Progression suggestion. That seems like a way of simplifying the "expected" wealth by level gear (helping keep pace with the baddies' stats/resistances/abilities). And bonus, it frees us up to reward the players with unique items that give cool niche abilities (as opposed to the player feeling like they 'have' to take that ring of deflection over that cool Ring of Monkey-Scampering).

Also, as we're brainstorming, here's a Brainstorm Google Doc to collect all our suggestions/ideas (for organizational purposes).

Everyone should be able to comment on it. If you'd like to be able to edit it directly, PM me your gmail address. :)

BRACE! BRACE! BRACE! INCOMING WALL o' TEXT!!!

We designed the game world for maximum adventure versatility, so any GM (with just a little elbow grease) can use it to plausibly launch just about any adventure created for PF1 regardless of terrain, country, etc. To keep ‘consistency’, regardless of who is in the DM chair and provide structure, recurrent NPCs, and familiar amenities, after every DM stint the characters will return to a central location. Consider that location the ‘hub’ for all of the adventures. This ‘hub’ will be the shared DM space where the “Yes, and…” principle will be in full force. Your characters will be introduced to the ‘hub’ in the beginning of the game, so I will be architecting it initially but I am doing that in broad swathes and each of you (when in the chair) will be able to use what I built, add your own NPCs, etc. to flesh out the hub more. I am adding in just enough to create the space and scenes I need for my stint as DM. At game start, you will be in a ‘temperate’ locale, but don’t get bogged down by that or let that influence your build ideas.

To give us all max ‘play room’ for our builds, the hub is very ‘cosmopolitan’. So, you will run into people from anywhere on Golarion – desert folks, arctic explorers, academicians, etc. You can also be from anywhere on Golarion. You will also see many races of folks including ‘monsters’ such as goblins, kobolds, gnolls, etc. They will be in far fewer numbers than humans, elves, etc. but they are present. So, (and this gets to one of our decision points as a team) we’ll need to decide what races are ‘playable’. If you want to judge that by the ‘hub’, the list is pretty expansive.

That’s as much as I’d like to reveal about the world while maintaining some fun secrets. If pressed, I’ll give you more but I hope that is enough to work with.

I’ll be in the driver’s seat as long as needed. I don’t expect you guys to be immediately inspired to take the reins from me. That said, I envision my stint as DM will include at a minimum:
* Bringing your characters together
* Introducing you all to the hub
* Solving the ‘mystery’ of the hub (mini-adventure involving a lot of RP I expect)
* Finding gainful employment (adventure 1-ish?)
And I’ll plan for at least one more Adventure in case no one is ready to take a whack at DMing.

I love when other people make Stormraven do extra work. I get so bored of being the only person making him pull his hair out. :D

Note to self, make sure Eben's character 'finds' a cursed Ring of Horny Acid-Vomiting Devil Monkeys.

I've never played with automatic progression, but I'm open to it.

For maps I can easily do either roll20 or Google. I think I have a drop box, but I haven't used it in... I can't even remember how long

I have and use roll20 frequently, have for years for both PbP and regular games.

I have used google as a player, but I've never created maps for it...successfully. I've played with it some, but never created a usable map.

I'm up for Automatic Bonus Progression.

No one mentioned 'rolling for abilities' but I'm not a fan of that... unless I roll two 18's, one 17, and two 16's in which case I am a HUGE fan and screw all y'all! :)

4d6 - 2 ⇒ (2, 5, 4, 6) - 2 = 15
4d6 - 1 ⇒ (1, 4, 1, 5) - 1 = 10
4d6 - 1 ⇒ (1, 6, 3, 4) - 1 = 13
4d6 - 3 ⇒ (6, 4, 4, 3) - 3 = 14
4d6 - 1 ⇒ (1, 2, 1, 1) - 1 = 4
4d6 - 3 ⇒ (5, 3, 5, 4) - 3 = 14

Yeah, I'm going to pretend to stand on principle and say I hate rolling.

A 4, seriously!?!?

4d6 ⇒ (3, 5, 3, 3) = 14 11
4d6 ⇒ (1, 4, 1, 6) = 12 11
4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 2, 5) = 14 12
4d6 ⇒ (2, 4, 1, 6) = 13 12
4d6 ⇒ (6, 2, 4, 3) = 15 13
4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 1, 5) = 13 12

I shall be...Captain Average!

I second not rolling for abilities.

Riffing off one of Nick's Captain Average's comment/questions earlier...

I don't run commercially made adventures. The last time I did that was Tomb of Horrors back in the early AD&D days. So it's been a few years.

Everything I DM (unless I get super lazy or inspired by an outstanding stand-alone adventure) will be homespun from my diseased brain and tailored for the party.

So once we build our characters, I will need a little time (and some drinks) to cook up adventures for you. Referring to my bulleted list above, I feel good about bringing you guys together and the intro to the hub. I'd say I'm about 90% there on the mini-adventure to solve the hub mystery. And I've got a good idea about Adventure 1 and I have some pilferable materials from my own collection to complete that adventure - minus digital maps. Call that one 50% done. And Adventure 2 is a total unknown at this point.

Oh, I forgot I have another mini-adventure after the hub mystery, that is shaping up OK. Call that one 60% done.

4d6 - 1 ⇒ (1, 1, 3, 5) - 1 = 9
4d6 - 2 ⇒ (3, 3, 2, 6) - 2 = 12
4d6 - 1 ⇒ (3, 3, 1, 6) - 1 = 12
4d6 - 2 ⇒ (6, 2, 2, 2) - 2 = 10
4d6 - 6 ⇒ (6, 6, 6, 6) - 6 = 18 <--- MUAHAHAHAHA!
4d6 - 2 ⇒ (3, 4, 2, 6) - 2 = 13

Call me the IDIOT SAVANT!

I also, dislike rolling most of the time...

Introducing Captain Average's brother... DR. Nominal.

:P

So, looks like:
- Point Buy for sure
- Probably core races unless you REALLY need that odd duck for something (which I might).
- Classes are an open question as is the theme/environments

Theme:
Does anyone have a strong opinion on any theme to shoot for here? It could be broad like Save the World, Save Ourselves, Everything's broken, we need to fix it, Get back the THINGIE OF IMPORT(tm)?

I'd like to let Dink chime in here when he gets to his 'morning' but on the vote tally, Point Buy looks to be running away with it.

On that note... what time zones are folks in?
I'm EST (GMT-5), coming at you from NYC.

Races - I'm not trying to influence things here but I like Core, Featured, and Standard races with maybe a tweak or two for play balance. The basic Gnoll build I don't like, but I seriously love John Mangrum's Gnoll.

I'm a firm believer in busting racial stereotypes, at times. Not all goblins (in my world) are mayhem-loving psychopaths.

In terms of themes... not sure how to answer that. With 5 DMs and any adventure potentially on the table, and no real overall 'mission' to the campaign short of 'just living' (because the missions/adventures could be anything). From my POV, I'm not thinking about themes, I'm thinking "who would be FUN to play for a long time" and then I want to see what you guys all come up with and ask "is this a pretty viable party no matter what any DM throws at us?" *shrug*

Time Zone: I'm EST as well! I'm on the border of Kentucky and Indiana.

I'm good with those races. Plenty to choose from.

I'm EST (GMT-5) as well, near DC.

Yeah, let's wait to hear from Dinketry.

I'm MST, and generally post from early morning through early afternoon. Late afternoon through evenings are family time for me most days.

As for races, I have like 6 concepts I'm toying with for this game. All but two are pretty standard races (humans, half-orc, half-elf). One is a goblin and one is a skinwalker.

So from a races standpoint, I'm not thinking crazy-crazy ... only a little crazy.

Choon: when you talk about themes, are you talking about campaign themes? Or themes to help us build our group?

If it's the game theme, (as Stormraven said) that could be wildly diverse based on each "chapter" of our story, driven by a different DM's.

when you talk about themes, are you talking about campaign themes? Or themes to help us build our group?

I was thinking more a theme to build the party around or a theme that would be the overarcing concept of the campaign, but I don't think there will be one per Raven. If I'm understanding things right.

I'm thinking "who would be FUN to play for a long time" and then I want to see what you guys all come up with and ask "is this a pretty viable party no matter what any DM throws at us

Ok, ok. That... make a lot of sense actually.

This just got a lot more personal.

^^ he gets it.

This is basically an opportunity to ask yourself, "what's the most fun, kick-ass character I'd love to play in an ensemble cast in some fun, crazy, diverse adventures?"

Only six, Eben? Did you suffer a head injury? :D

For me, the race/class thing is a little more fluid. For instance, if you guys pick classes that sound awesome and I see that the team could use a Ranger-type (which is a class I like) then I will likely pitch a Ranger (or Slayer) and I will very likely go with a Gnoll in that case (hopefully you guys would sign off on Mangrum's Gnoll) because I really enjoyed playing a gnoll ranger before and I wished his adventures continued.

Or I might pick class/race combo that is flat-out crazy. A couple days ago, I was telling Eben I might pitch a goblin cleric who has the worst bedside manner, totally unsympathetic to patients, and slaps all sorts vile goo on wounds, and berates you guys. XD

The gobbo cleric reattaches Eben's severed foot using fishing line and a dirty bait hook. "Stop squirming, you pansy. It's barely a scratch. That case of crabs you had last week was way more serious. Let me repeat that for the team... Eben had CRABS last week."

This just got a lot more personal.

Outstanding! I'm a fan in being invested in a character that you can enjoy for many levels.

^^ he gets it.

This is basically an opportunity to ask yourself, "what's the most fun, kick-ass character I'd love to play in an ensemble cast in some fun, crazy, diverse adventures?"

I have a character creation problem. In that I've made entirely too many characters in my life. To ask me this... *sigh* I have a lot of thinking to do

BTW, I have a discord server we could use for this, if youall decide we want to use that platform.

I'm assuming we're looking at a (mostly) good-aligned party?

You know, fluffy bunnies, mimosas, my-little-pony pinatas, etc...

In my experience my-little-pony pinatas are ANYTHING but good.

But to your question, all of my concepts will have G or N on their character sheets, all with a strong motivator to be team players. :)

Good question. I’m happy to play in the G to N range, though my real sweet spot is Chaotic Awesome.

You know, fluffy bunnies, mimosas, my-little-pony pinatas, etc...

Mimosas?! My good man, this is an upscale game for discerning palates! We serve Bellinis.

I tend toward LN or NG, but I have played an evil healer before, so ya.

*grumbles while going through his backlog of barely used/ never played characters*

OK, time to herd some cats and make some decisions…

Here is my unofficial tally based on what I’m seeing up-thread, sometimes based on inference. Correct me where I’m wrong:

After doing a bit of reading on Paths of War and having played with Spheres in two games, I’m coming down as a No on them. They open up a lot of possibilities in terms of classes, etc. I like that in a more controlled environment (non-gestalt), but I am three years rusty and it seems like a lot in a single game. Sorry, Nick, I know you were eager to try them. Now, if the vote goes ‘Yes’ I’ll just hope not everyone jumps on the bandwagon so I only have to brush up on a subset of all that delicious content. :D I will adapt and overcome.

Dink, I’m sorry you missed the back and forth… everyone was eager to hash things out. Please let us know your votes on all these matters.

I’d like to bring one of the open issues to the floor… What type of Gestalt game should this be?

I’ll offer my opinion… to get the discussion going and give Dink one more thing to ponder in addition to all the other posts.

The more I think about it, the more I like the Gestalt 1.5 approach and I’d amend that to favor the PCs on odd levels by ‘rounding up’ the half. So the first ten levels would look like this:
1st LV – Primary Class 1st / Secondary Class 1st
2nd LV – 2nd / 1st
3rd LV – 3rd / 2nd
4th LV – 4th / 2nd
5th LV – 5th / 3rd
6th LV – 6th / 3rd
7th LV – 7th / 4th
8th LV – 8th / 4th
9th LV – 9th / 5th
10th LV – 10th / 5th

I like this because it gives everyone a built-in area to shine and relegates other characters to a lesser but still competent ability in that skillset. And it would make even similar builds very different. Consider two Sorcerer/Rogues. With full gestalt, they’d be 10/10 regardless of their ‘primary’ class. With 1.5 Gestalt, they could be Sorc 10 / Rogue 5 or Rogue 10 / Sorc 5. That is night and day different. I find that very appealing and it adds some new thinking to some class choices… If you want to run a hybrid class as one of your gestalt ‘slots’ say a Hunter [Druid/Ranger] / Bard, do you make Hunter your primary to pump up the abilities of your Druid and Rangerish skills (double your classes, double your fun) or do you push the Bard abilities far more? I dunno, it just makes me revisit some class combos ideas with fresh eyes and that intrigues me.