I have been looking over magic item pricing and while I know it is not an exact science, I just cannot see how it prices out to 120,630 gp.
Could anyone break it down for me?
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Mostly because of the unique limited effect, only works with Paladin. That's pretty much it. Holy Avenger is frankly special enough, that you should consider having only a few of them in your setting at most. It's basically the Paladin dream weapon, the legendary /mythic version of it is even more Gary Stu/Mary Sue type of sword.
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I thought this was a thread about Dick Greyson watching Steve Rogers kick A**.
"Holy Avenger, Batman! How come you can't do that??"
There are a lot of weapons that seem overpriced for what they do. I think after a certain point, the developers expect you to get either Diplomacy discounts or access to Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
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The market price is 120630gp, but the crafting (enchanting) cost is 60630gp. Since there's a 630 that seems constant here, I'm going to assume that, as for all other specific items, it's the cost of the mundane object (because the cost of enchanting an item is half its market price... generally). Here, the "mundane" item is a cold iron masterwork longsword.
A regular longsword is 15gp. A masterwork weapon is +300gp. As per rules on special materials, a cold iron weapon is twice the price of a normal one. Thus, 630gp. Note that you can find a "cold iron masterwork longsword" at 330gp on d20pfsrd, so it's up to your GM whether you apply "cold iron" or "masterwork" first...
That leaves 120k to explain. A Holy Avenger weapon becomes a +5 Holy weapon in the hands of a paladin. "Holy" is equivalent to a +2 bonus, so a +5 Holy Weapon not restricted to paladins would be priced as a +7 weapon (98k).
The sword provides some kind of Spell Resistance. Constant SR for wielder would be priced at 10k per point above 12; starting with a WBL-compliant level of 13, SR of 5+level averages at 21.5, which would have been 95k if fractional SR existed. However, this is just a hunch since we don't have a rule for pricing "SR of X+level" nor do we know the cost for "SR that applies to adjacent creatures as well" (which can be either friends or foes, by the way).
It also provides and an at-will Greater Dispel Magic. Spell level is 6, minimum caster level 11, price would be 6x11x1800gp... or 5x13x1800 if made by a bard or summoner: roughly 118k in both cases. This cost would have to be reduced since the spell is limited in effect to one of its three abilities: Area Dispel (which can dispel your friends' buffs and summons, too).
Lastly, this is a weapon limited to one character class. Magic item creation rules give a 30% discount on the final price. To end at 120k, the initial price would have been ~171k, 73k above the price for "+5 Holy". As a side note, I find 73k cheap for ever-increasing SR and at-will dispel.
I guess they made some calculations, and then rounded them to land at 120k. Or made it up completely.
Re-reading the sword's abilities, I find hilarious the fact that a paladin thusly equipped wouldn't be able to use his dispel on foes surrounding him due to the SR applying to them. EDIT: After re-re-reading Dispel Magic, I found that SR doesn't apply.
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Semi-ninja'd by Louis IX. The holy avenger is actually way underpriced for what it does.
+5 holy = +7 equivalent, 98000 gp for starters. But there's a 30% price reduction if only usable by a particular class. So how do we break that out?
+2 is usable by anybody. +2 = 8000 gp.
The "upper" +5-equivalent (+3 holy) is usable only by paladins. We price that as 98000 (+7 equivalent) - 8000 (+2 usable by anybody) = 90000. 90000 x 30% = 27000. 90000 - 27000 = 63000.
2000 gp for the tax to enchant cold iron.
630 gp for a masterwork cold iron longsword.
That brings us up to 8000 + 63000 + 2000 + 630 = 73630 gp so far, just for the magic weapon stuff, before we get to the other powers.
Now is the hard part. We know the SR and greater dispel magic powers combined are worth 47000 gp (120630 gp - 73630 gp). If all we want to do is reverse engineer the price, we can stop here. But let's compare and see how those abilities might be priced according to the magic item pricing guidelines.
There is a price listed for SR in the magic item gp value table. It's 10000 gp per point over SR 12. The holy avenger gives us SR based on its wielder's level +5, however, so we can't figure it exactly. Just to give ourselves an entry argument, let's assume the wielder's level is the CL of the holy avenger: 18. That would grant SR 23. That means the SR price would be (23-12 = 11 x 10000 = 110000 gp. However, the holy avenger also grants the same SR to anyone adjacent to the paladin. That's a bigger benefit, so it should cost more, but we don't have any guidelines on how to price that, so let's ignore it for now. There's also the 30% paladin-only discount, bringing that down to 77000 gp.
Greater dispel magic is a command word activated unlimited use power. Spell level 6 x CL 18 x 1800 gp = 194400. But, you can only use the area dispel. Let's be very generous and say that only costs 1/3 as much, since that's only 1 of 3 things you can do with greater dispel magic. That makes it 64800 gp, 45360 gp with the 30% paladin only discount added in.
So that would come out to 73630 + 77000 + 45360 = 195990 gp if we were pricing it out by the magic item pricing guidelines. That makes the holy avenger quite a steal at a mere 120k and change.
These calculations do seem to make a lot of sense. Though, maybe there's a few issues in there that are what make the Holy Avenger seem like it's too expensive instead of underpriced. I think part of it is definitely that spell resistance is prohibitively expensive. Even if it scales with the user, that's still a 75% chance of an equivalent level caster breaking through that before counting caster level boosts or Spell Penetration. Maybe this is what makes it feel like too much for the money.
But very good work, you guys!
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Just a minor quibble (300gp out of 120k+ seems quite minor): the cost of a cold iron weapon is double that of a steel version. Masterwork costs are added after that, so a masterwork cold iron longsword is 15 (steel sword) x2 (cold iron) = 30, +300 (mwk) = 330gp.
The non-magical component seems to cost 630gp, and has done since the 3.0 DMG; it was a mistake that has simply been copy/pasted through the editions since. No-one cares since the price doesn't follow a formula anyway. Trying to reverse engineer it will be ultimately fruitless.
For similar frustration, try to reverse engineer celestial chain. : )
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Malachi- I noticed that, too. I followed suit with the same error.
Celestial armor is easy to reverse engineer.
+3: 9000 gp
fly 1/day CL 5: spell lvl 3 x CL 5 x 1800 gp = 27000 / 5 = 5400 gp
mwk chainmail : 300
9000 + 5400 + 300 = 14700 gp for everything with a standard price.
22400 - 14700 = 7700 gp. All of this: "so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor" is worth 7700 gp. For comparison, mithral medium armor (which offers similar but less powerful weight reduction-type benefits) costs an extra 4000 gp.
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The problem is that it has the properties of mithral, with an extra +4 to Mex Dex. How much does that extra +4 max Dex cost, is it a flat price or is it worth +2 (and therefore variable), is it a non-magical quality or is it a magical enchantment that can be theoretically used to enchant other magical armour with other qualities...?
The purpose of reverse engineering is to use that knowledge to engineer other things, other armours, that use some of the qualities of that armour. Similarly, we want to reverse engineer the holy avenger so that we can make other weapons which have variable spell resistance that works in a 10-foot radius, other paladin weapons which work better for paladins, etc.
As has been stated above, what stumped me was the fact that after doing the math several different way, I found the holy avenger to be drastically underpriced if the SR is included and slightly underpriced if the SR is not included.
However I was not calculating as Charlie Bell did and I find his numbers convincing.
Basically the Holy Avenger was Eyeballed to be available at levels 17+, *shrug*.
Thank you all for your help. *Bow*
Honestly I think SR is for protection against low level alpha strike casters. You know the ones who put everything into 1 specialty. These guys want to make a name for themselves so they go and try to take out a well known and respected paladin.
Thank you all for your help. *Bow*
shouldn't it be *Bow Wow?*
Isn't the short answer to all of this:
"You are not buying or selling a Holy Avenger."
Isn't the short answer to all of this:
"You are not buying or selling a Holy Avenger."
Probably. But it still matters as it counts towards your wealth-by-level guidelines (if you use those rules).
Isn't the short answer to all of this:
"You are not buying or selling a Holy Avenger."
Exactly. Is there even a city in the Inner Sea region with a 120k gp limit?
Celestial armor is easy to reverse engineer.
[...] For comparison, mithral medium armor (which offers similar but less powerful weight reduction-type benefits) costs an extra 4000 gp.
I'd go even further, since that armor copies the mithral version with a twist. The twist here is "double max dex bonus" and costs 3700gp. But that's house-rule territory anyway.
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Exactly. Is there even a city in the Inner Sea region with a 120k gp limit?Isn't the short answer to all of this:
"You are not buying or selling a Holy Avenger."
Absolom is my default for "city where you can buy any non-artifact item given enough gold and time."
However, a Holy Avenger would make my list of exceptions -that's a quest item or a special reward.
That doesn't mean you guys can up and decide to go there next session, though.
-Skeld
Crafting a holy avenger sounds so wrong.
Somebody's gotta do it.
Exactly. Is there even a city in the Inner Sea region with a 120k gp limit?Isn't the short answer to all of this:
"You are not buying or selling a Holy Avenger."
Absolom is my default for "city where you can buy any non-artifact item given enough gold and time."
However, a Holy Avenger would make my list of exceptions -that's a quest item or a special reward.
That doesn't mean you guys can up and decide to go there next session, though.
-Skeld
Hah, we can't find our way up a mountain half the time, let alone to Absalom.
(edited - add)
The Paladin ability to create your own custom weapon is pretty nice though. You can just take your +2 cold iron longsword and add Holy and some other nice properties. You only come short on the spell resistance of the HA.
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Exactly. Is there even a city in the Inner Sea region with a 120k gp limit?Isn't the short answer to all of this:
"You are not buying or selling a Holy Avenger."
Absolom is my default for "city where you can buy any non-artifact item given enough gold and time."
However, a Holy Avenger would make my list of exceptions -that's a quest item or a special reward.
That doesn't mean you guys can up and decide to go there next session, though.
-Skeld
Hah, we can't find our way up a mountain half the time, let alone to Absalom.
(edited - add)
The Paladin ability to create your own custom weapon is pretty nice though. You can just take your +2 cold iron longsword and add Holy and some other nice properties. You only come short on the spell resistance of the HA.
I'd let a Paladin craft their own holy Avenger, but I'd have to think about the requirements.
To me, that's kinda the same idea as a Jedi crafting their own Lightsaber.
-Skeld
Glamdring. was a 'holy weapon' of sorts.
Forged specifically for the king of gondolin for the expressed purpose of slaying goblins (orcs)
while in gme mechanics that would probably make it a bane weapon,
there is nothing that makes bane any less sacred than "holy"
goblins/orcs were the representers of evil in the tolkien mythology.
Does it really seem that odd to forge a holy avenger for Beauford T Justice, the Paladin King, as he plans to lead a crusade to the world wound?