Thirteen Kingdoms: The Vault of Heaven

Game Master Nathanael Love

Welcome to the Vault of Heaven!

Howdy folks! Do we want to get some additional RP, relationships, etc.? Really excited to be here, but I'll strive to channel that excitement to the insecurity, fear, and ennui of Addanc.

In his role as (maligned and ignored, although tolerated) spiritual advisor to the throne (and more pertinently, as Spymaster), Maurice is a known figure in the court. He might have one or two friendly acquaintances, but he's overbearing, difficult and kind of a creep, always there when you have forgotten about him.

I figure he's in his mid 40's at the youngest, late 60's at the oldest, and as I've been examining his character and trying to figure out how he ticks, I realized he's surprisingly like Lapin Cadbury from Dimension 20's A Crown of Candy: secretly worshiping an evil goddess while presenting as a member of the national religion, distrusted or disliked by most of the court while unflinchingly loyal to the state, sneaky and cunning.

I'll try and get a fuller write up today.

DM: Could I take Shawnari's Deific Obedience and then just assign it to Feyla?

Avatar is temporary, I grabbed this one for now because it was the nearest to the front but it's far far too dead looking (although I do like it); if y'all don't mind could you help me narrow my choices down? In rough order, these are the ones I'm considering:

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9

It would probably be good to build-out foundational relationships between our characters.

Alvero might be seen as a non-threat to Addanc given his esoteric magical focus, so perhaps the two could be more colloquial than most of the ruler's associates. It may also help he can be rather heartless with people, looking at them with bankers' eyes, perhaps giving Addanc some sort of relief others distance people as well.

How overtly/frequently is Maruice's faith represented?

Like all worship of Feyla (I imagine), it is done in the dark

I may just be a sucker for a good moustache, but 8 really speaks to me on a personal level.

Having some form of magical supremacy is important to Addanc; be it powerful mages or magic resistant warriors, both are excellent things to have. And having a good relation with your spymaster is a good way to avoid state secrets being "accidentally" leaked to enemies of the state!

As everyone finishes their crunch:

Character Build Rules from this post

By popular demand, will be adding the option to get a 3rd trait by taking one drawback (optional).

Sire, reporting in!
*bows*

I'll get working on the details ASAP.
Alas, I will be gone over the weekend - back and available on monday.
When possible, I'll also try to take a closer look at who else joined your service recently, and find some avenues of "foundational relations".

@Maurice: Definitely 8. It has some wonderfully sinister vibes. Like, you do not KNOW what's going on in this guys cellar, but regardless you are certain you want no part in it.

regardless you are certain you want no part in it.

How do you know I'm not into that kind of stuff, hmmm?

GM/Addanc, how notable are the arcane towers' fame/clout in the Vault of Heaven? I'm trying to decide how much I should have Alvero's possessions reflect any legacy nature/gentrification of the place.

@Alvero: Oh, WILLING participants excluded, of course. I was rather referring to the uninitiated :D

Addanc's father was a superstitious barbarian king (in all senses of the word) and Addanc while swearing to be nothing like his father has a pretty decent helping of paranoia, including distrust of wizardry. That being said, Addanc love's appearances of legitimacy, and would absolutely support you looking like a "classically" trained mage, as I understand it it's kind of like getting a doctorate from an Ivy league?

Clout-wise, the elite dwarven soldiers train to be highly resistant to magic, so magicians have an important role in training even martials in the army, so it's probably a respectable role, although seen as less honorable than being a front line warrior

My only possible concern is a lack of a strong front line, but Addanc himself has no issue with wading into combat. Hopefully it won't be a problem though!

Neither Maurice nor his shadow will be built with combat firmly in mind, although he should be able to carry himself, he's a bit of a glass cannon. His AC will be decent though, especially if I decide to take Medium Armor Prof

You're an Anti-Paladin, then we have a Spiritualist, a bow-fighting Monk/Sorcerer, a Cleric and a Wizard? So I'd think we'd need our cleric to have some tankiness, but if they're built around Channeling, idk.

Also, also, interesting that he's paranoid of magic and you chose four magic people

Well, there weren't a lot of non-barbarian martials :) Besides, next level even Addanc ends up with some light spell casting ability unless I find a good way to get rid of it. Even worse than always being around sneaky spell casters is having sneaky spell casters being around you and not knowing it.

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Cleric gets medium armor and shields, so they hopefully will be able to stand up front, although maybe with a polearm or something behind Addanc? We'll see how it goes. Oxnard said there would be a lot of kingdom building and RP.

Getting my crunch in place. This is edelsmirge and my cleric evangelist of Dispater

Also I lose medium armor to my build but make up for it by hitting every enemy in channel range with a dc 21 daze for one round with my variant channel. It's hard to fight when you don't act. My main build spell wise is to buff and make the party stronger with inspire courage and spells and summon monster and turn invisible while doing it

Summoning monsters helps 100% with the dearth of melee, but idk if Dispater is in the world; archdevils aren't in the setting document, although many homebrews do just keep the existing structure of the Planes rather than trying to retool any of it

Do you plan on investing any in healing? As of right now, I don't intend to pick up CLW as a spell, nor to purchase a wand, but this can be discussed

Ah well I need a god with rulership for my channel build

Can't go wrong with the national religion of Hapi, although I'm not entirely sure if trickery falls within his purview, and it looks like only Jarrett offers nobility as a part of his profile, and is a CG deity.

It stands to reason that rulership/leadership would easily be an aspect of nobility represented by Hapi, and it would be interesting to have a counterpart who is actually part of the clergy while I'm only pretending to

Need a ruling by the gm on that one

Therpious (NN) or Ge'Shanai (LN) would be appropriate for rulership.

Any preferences? Also can someone post those two gods here I can't seem to open the link

Ge’Shanai  LN  F  Quarterstaff  Magic, Law, Protection (Goddess of Magic and Might, worshipped by wizards, monks)

Therpious  N  M  Trident  Water, Travel, Balance (Therpious is also associated with rulership as the "King of the Seas", and he is actually also Santa Claus in the setting)

Alternately, the one I said could stand in for Dispater is:

Zailor  LE  M  Warhammer  Metalworking, the Sun (worshipped heavily in the Burned Lands and by some gnoll tribes; can be LN followers as well)

What domains do they all have?

Ask, and you shall receive--

Updated Religion

I should have every domain and subdomain split out to every core deity now!

I've also added a section below with which traits/deific obediences/ect I've approved to port to which deities (will add as stuff comes up)

Arguably, Zailor is the best fit for your current building, having trickery as a domain, and Sovereignty as an influence.

I agree so Zailor it is

@GM: I have one question to make - if there is the potential for overlap between the tables, and pvp, would it make sense to use the "dying" system of pathfinder 2/Starfinder instead? (where you get 4 'stages' of dying regardless of actual damage, that progress when you fail to stabilize or take more damage)
Players tend to be quite "bursty" with damage. So a method where you definitely do get a chance to stabilize if acting fast enough may be preferable.
Mind you, if such is chosen, combat will still be very lethal(just get some summons to gang up on someone who went down), but the chance to knock someone out and take them prisoner is definitely higher...and while character death is a part of gameplay, nobody really enjoys dying to some random lucky hit if they didn't mess up somehow.
Just a consideration...

@Addanc: Despite being away for the weekend, I did get some work done on fleshing out the character, but there's still some more left, I do hope to be sufficiently done by tomorrow.

GM Update!
To simplify the process of knowing when all 15 players are locked in with their character's I've added a sheet into each of your respective slide decks with a table-- please fill your character into this table, including setting them to "yes" when complete so I can track where we are!

Also included are slides with "NPC cards" 3/slide-- fill out one for each NPC you've seeded in your back story (and Kingdom back story). I think this will be a good method with so much intrigue and NPC relevance in this/these game(s).

Also-- I'm going to use some kind of loot tracking sheet that will (among other things) give me a ping on relative party wealth.

If anyone has a format they've used and want to suggest post a link to one and I will steal whichever works out the best.

Straw Poll!
Going to do a quick straw poll across the three games on a few rules, drop your input on the following:

Options:
Two potentially problematic options were brought up, and I mentioned I had never had anyone pursue those paths, but I want to check the overall feel so we can decide to allow/disallow in a way that feels fair-- so give an up/down on the following:

1. Sacred Geometry

2. Blood Money

Optional rules--
3. It was requested/suggested in one group to possibly use an alternate death rule-- something like either 5E DND or Starfinder's system, so any thoughts on that drop them. (having my first PK in over 3 years today might be making me think on this.)

I mean as that player kill, I would LOVE to have a 5e like death saves system.

I think they really change the playing field and make mortal combat extra tense specifically because most combats are easily survivable. Any healing automatically makes you conscious and positive again, you need three saves to stabilize (or one 20 to become conscious with 1 HP), yet ranged blows is one failed save and melee blows are two failed saves, so intelligent foes will often focus on permanently killing someone rather than just dropping them to unconsciousness if there are effective healers in the party, and the thought that you have a chance is really killer in the moments when you don't.

For the second time in this discussion thread, I'd like to plug Dimension 20's A Crown of Candy, this time as an example of the death saves system significantly adding to the tension or drama of battle.

EDIT

For Sacred Geometry, I think no, but I'm fine with Blood Money and have no issue with Blood Money unless you're building entirely around it. I think it's very flavorful and can be used powerfully and intelligently.

@Sacred Geometry is a Feat that should not be.
It is the opposite of fun. In a table game, it delays playing.
In a pbp game, there is almost no way you can fail to reach a prime constant given enough time(heck, there's even autosolvers for that).
Getting 2 essentially free Metamagic Feats added is an abomination for balance. Heck, I'd take the Feat 3 times for extra flexibility.

@Blood Money: It depends on what the player is going for. It has potential for abuse, but that does not mean any use of it IS abuse.
I was in a game with a player that used his entire downtime to buy normal weapons/armor, cast Blood Money/Masterwork Transformation, then sold them for profit and bringing home some pearls of power for the cleric using lesser restoration to keep him going).
We were based in a sufficiently large city and travelling enough that it was unreasonable to declare the market 'saturated', but it was easily a strong influx of wealth for level 3...
Anyway, really depends on case-by-case. Can be fine, or not.

@Alternate Death: Well, I brought it up, so sign me up as 'pro'. As said, players tend to have increased Damage output compared to CR-equivalent encounters - and especially when dealing with other players, tend to nova-strike/alpha-strike. Rocket Tag FTW. On both the dealing and receiving end, I would prefer lethality to be an option, not compulsory for competitiveness.
(I think taking someone prisoner has much more potential for RP over killing them and having their daughter/son swear revenge)

Where are the slides that I should be looking at? I'm sorry, I seem to have missed them!

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In any case, I have finished, with the exception of still needing to find an extra trait for myself. I took a drawback for flavor, now I need to figure out what will actually help me!

I have personally played with and abused both sacred geometry and blood money, and had quite a bit of fun with my table in the process. Personally it would not bother me either way, as long as it was made clear which way we were going. Blood money I find to be much more egregious than sacred geometry (as well as herbalism bond druids spamming spirit share, but that's a completely different issue) If we ever get to a decently high level such that fabricate and magic jar become options, blood money becomes incredibly appealing, especially to evil characters. I personally won't be making any use of it, but I'm not really a caster. As long as it's open to everyone, I don't really have a problem with it, so I guess this is just a really long winded abstention.

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Alternate Death: If we were going to do that, I'm personally fond of wounds and vigor as an alternate system. I prefer the threat of death to be a constant background thought, but if the majority want a more forgiving variant, I have no real complaints. Potential suggestion: allow attackers to state that they don't want to kill the target, and chose to do less damage if the blow would kill? It sort of takes the teeth away from non-lethal damage, but it's a compromise. I'm flexible either way, with a slight preference towards rocket tag, but I'm not playing a squishy!

Mordred here:

The slides are here, for us.

@Alternate Death: It's all good, my issue was that squishyness does not really play into it, more that the "buffer" of 0 HP to death does not scale. So while a good hit at level 3 takes you from 10 HP to -10 HP and dying, at level 13 a good hit takes you from 20 to dead instantly.
As said, I am pretty adaptable when it comes to character deaths, but it kind of always seemed pretty anticlimactic if a character just gets offed randomly by a single unlucky roll, and PVP always seemed the worst offender.
I don't really think it would be more 'forgiving', just scale better through the levels. I'm all for nova-striking, it's efficient. Just tends to overkill and is definitely not fun on the receiving end.

Links to the slides are also in my profile tag line, and I have added them to the campaign info section at the top.

Yes- the "+4 racial bonus to Survival when in forested environments; +4 racial bonus to Handle Animal with forest creatures" was effectively slotted in place of Elven magic, so traits that replace Elven Magic would replace it for Forest Elves.

While we are talking about feats, would we want to consider Leadership being a free Level 7 feat for all tables?

GM Update!
Looks like between 2-3 characters are listed as complete at all the tables, so we are making progress towards all 15 which will be the kicking off point.

Based on the straw poll, I've made the following four decisions for these games:

1. Sacred Geometry- banned
2. Blood Money- banned

Reaction was in two categories- "I'll exploit it if its legal" and please no, so I'll just go ahead and quash them both now- I'd rather not have options that feel obligatory to not "fall behind" other tables.

3. Death- not a lot of love for the alternate was expressed, so I am going to keep the usual PF1 death rules- with max HP at all levels that should blunt wonky insta kills while still being dangerous.

4. Leadership feat: this will be given at a Bonus feat for all at 5th level- two levels lower than usual, knowing that low leadership scores for some will give you very little at that point.

I will have more details on cohort builds when we get closer to that level.

I'm exited about this game! Loving all the characters as they are fleshing out! I'm working on finishing the other Kingdoms- all but two have descriptions of some kind added to the Thirteen Kingdoms Slide Deck, so check those out when you have a chance.

My next GM task towards getting us ready to start here is going to be assigning what Kingdom Building assets each Kingdom is starting with, and designing the military units costs- getting close to ready to shoot the starter pistol on these games.

I'm also trying to decide how far "back in time" this game is from the other games in my world-- I've been toying with either 50, 100, or 200 years from my typical start point.

I need help adding a spot to the slide so I may mark myself ready and done and add my info

Added Grym and Alvero to the list. No claims of complete-/ or correctness.

@Leadership: Is it locked into Leadership or will there be 'Flavors'? Like Dynasty Founder or Recruits?

While I absolutely love Leadership, and overall the Vault seems to be in a good spot there with Cha Scores across the board, some characters(Finja among them) are not cut out to be classical 'leaders'.

Addanc is complete! NPC's online, I made some copies of the NPC card slide, so there's space for everyone. Very excited to get started.

I would like to start building food reserves immediately so we can feed and build troops as swiftly as possible.

I like your enthusiasm, but I'd advise to wait until we know sufficiently about our neighbours.

10 is, at the time of writing, still a blank page.
8 is a warlike society that lost territory to us a while back.
Both 4 and 6(Halflings and Dwarves) need a proper Navy to reach and would leave us weak on our own landmass.

I suspect we will have to deal with 8 first, since they will want to reclaim land lost.
But: they are spear-wielding tribal raiders. So I wouldn't expect much in terms of economy to be gained from conquest, there.

What I'm getting at: We may want to secure a deal with 10, for now(even importing food if needeD) and invest in economy ourselves first. Then we can raise troops and aim to conquer 8, which will have a decent support infrastructure for military in place but little else of economic value.

Then we can use our homeland eco to build a fleet and aim for 6 before preparing to backstab 10.

If we instead focus on a military supply(food production&stockpile) ourselves, we'll end up with a ton of capacity after conquering 8, but no actual economy and production to actually raise and equip the armies we are ready to supply.

Also @Frontline, because that was mentioned near top of the thread: My only issue is low HP. Both the racial penalty to Con and Chained Monk/Sorcerer having low Hit Die doesn't help on that front. But my AC will be quite decent(especially after we hit Level 5), I don't provoke for shooting in Melee, and I'll prefer full-attacking over moving, so I suppose I can be a bit of a roadblock if someone wants to hide behind me.

Keep in mind those strips of ocean are not long or deep-- they are aKin to the North Strait-- so only a dozen or a little more miles at the close stretches.

The closest distance between land masses of the english channel is 34 km, or 20 miles.
Without even referring to WW2, the fact there IS water at all has been a key element of british defense strategy and naval superiority doctrine for 100's of years

Even if you just have to cross 5 miles on a ship, heck, if you need to cross a river, and the enemy has naval superiority (brown-water or green-water respectively), then you will have a bad day.

Even if you manage a landing(by surprise, for example), you'll soon be starved for reinforcements and supplies, AND have your retreat cut off.

I am not worried about logistics on a grand-scale, but military history suggests it's a bad idea to invade if you cannot maintain sufficient local superiority to secure your supply lines.

Right- don't think English channel, this the north channel that separates Ireland from Scotland, or the channels that separate Orkney from Scotland.

Aye, all good. Just saying if there's water at all, then it's a good idea to have more and stronger warships than the other side.
If you happily crossed over to the island with your troops, then see 2 of their ships sink the one you brought, chances are your victory will be temporary.

I am not against renting troops by taking a loan from some criminals in our kingdom and then killing them instead of paying them back etc, and I like the strategic lay out you have in place.

So import food, alliance with 10, crush 6 as first goals

I have a strong desire for eventually achieving magical supremacy. I definitely agree that 8 should be our first target, as we can even offer a believable reason of needing to crush them, and fighting a war on multiple fronts is a terrible plan. Eventually though, 7 should be on our hit-list. A nation of archmages sounds particularly terrifying. 6 on the other hand, would siphon off our halfling population, and needs to be dealt with before we end up losing all of them. On the other hand, it should be pretty easy to get some spies in their midst, all we need are a couple of loyal halflings, and they should easily be able to access their lands.