That's...not true. Many of the pirates depicted in the AP use their intimidating nature to keep their crew in line, most notably of course being Captain Barnabas Harrigan...the guy that press-gangs you at the start.
While you do end up mutinying, it's not because of anything Harrigan does, it's because of what PLUGG does (single you out on multiple occasions to screw you over or kill you) that causes the mutiny, and depending on how you play it and how many friends you make, it could be a very small mutiny indeed.
The trick is to really be a vicious, ruthless pirate...but not needlessly cruel. Harrigan is f#&+ing terrifying to a low level crew (and hell, high level crews), but he generally lets the crew go about their business unhindered unless they break the rules, in which case he has his first mate discipline them, or does so himself, and that's the end of it.
So I literally copy/pasted your response to our chat program and this was his response (after requesting that he stop speaking vaguely and saying "you know?" and actually give specifics):
"If you threaten to murder a minimum of 12 people to get them to do what you want, even if you're paying well, after a while I know I'd be like "why don't we just mutiny, kick the a#%*+%*s off, and split the loot between us" pirates aren't the most trusting loyal bunch. Just giving you a heads up. Balance the social part of the game. I dunno why I'm even saying anything. If you wanna run your ship like that go for it. Just don't act like it's out of the blue when they jump you is all. Or get 1/8th cr peasants to fight the cheliax navy. Either way."
Any truth to that? This is his first time running a game at my table. And this is the guy who swears that DSP Psionics and path of war are way too overpowered. So I'm suspecting that he isn't reading the books right.
(I'm half way tempted to read the AP myself just to see what he has wrong).
So I guess the solution is to be at least as tough as Harrigan himself.
Which basically means the game is already over.
And apparently "intimidate" is synonymous with "threaten to murder."
So here were the rest of his comments:
I said I wanted an intimidation focused character and the chance to play someone who isn't a hero for once. He said:
"Well yelling at people to row faster by intimidation is one thing. If you're using it to pressgang.... well let's just say that's what they did to you and look where that got em. Just food for thought."
Then I posted Rynjin's post and said that the Players Guide gave bonuses for diplomacy, but no penalties for intimidate and says nothing about how using intimidate is going to cause mutinies. He responded with the following:
"I mean the rules for intimidate are that they do what you want but like you one step less. If you make an ENTIRE BOAT of people hostile towards you, you're gonna have a bad time."
I said, "That's why you pay them with plunder." He responded with "yeah, that brings it back up. I'm just sayin is all."
And then I asked him to be more specific and stop saying "just saying" and "you know"
To which he said what I posted above and the following:
"Be sure you can take your crew if it comes to blows I mean. If I recall there is a slider in book 2. Certain things gain favor, and some lose it. Paizo hearts their relationship mechanics."
So to me it really sounds like he just doesn't want us to play anti-heroes or even pirates. He wants us to play good guys. There's a distinct miscommunication here. I'm going to have to be more direct.
Before I do, though, I want ammo. I want to know if he's right or wrong so I can tailor my conversation with him appropriately.
There is no slider in book 2. You can use Intimidate for a lot of things with no penalty.
A successful Intimidate check can get you:
-New crew members (via press-ganging).
-Increased Infamy and Disrepute
-Increased value on sold Plunder.
All of which are achievable by Bluff and Diplomacy, with no distinct penalties or benefits to each. Those rules are posted on the Campaign Info tab, by the by.
The AP VERY CLEARLY intends for Intimidate to be a viable option, both in the flavor presented by other pirate captains, and by the mechanics provided.
So from what I'm gathering, this GM thinks press-gangs are no different than slaves. Because he keeps referring to us as engaging in slavery when we talk about pressgangs.
He also thinks that every time we use intimidate to order the crew, we lower their attitude by one level. So that they eventually become hostile and will mutiny if you use intimidate to give them orders. Fortunately, I've used the rules text for intimidate to show him otherwise.
But even with that, he still thinks that using intimidate will make it so you will have zero people to mutiny with you in the first book or to crew your first ship, because they "will all be unfriendly and no one who is unfriendly will join your crew."
Oh, and he also thinks that intimidate is no different than threatening to murder them.
Last quote from him after arguing about this all night: "I didn't know the intimidate rules well enough I guess. I'll look it up. I was trying to help. It's more likely if you do that you won't have the people to even man your first ship. No one who is unfriendly joins you. But play it how you want. I made a completely different campaign based off it a long time ago and we can do something completely different from the ap if you want."
I mean - is it just me, or is that really passive aggressive?
Thanks for letting me vent, guys.
Pressganging seems pretty much to be slavery, or at best, a limited slavery as in 'You will work this ship and when we get to port you can leave? Pay? Maybe, don't push it."
But don't we pressgang every crew member on this ship in our game? And we still pay them plunder.
Yes, Captain Jrahk's primary method of recruitment is press-ganging, though it should be noted that the Bluff option is largely the same...you trick people into joining your crew by misleading them into thinking you're going somewhere/doing something else, and then they're stuck in the middle of the ocean with nowhere to go. So Diplomacy is the only option with any real difference as far as attitude.
Pay is mandatory (it comes off the top of your Plunder, so 1000 gp off every time you sell Plunder). Press-ganging is not slavery, though it is forced labor, except you still get paid and are for all intents and purposes just a normal crew member.
You have a few opportunities to take ACTUAL slaves in the AP, so they are distinct concepts.
And yeah, your GM sounds a bit passive aggressive.
On a side note, welcome lurker!
Thank you, Jrahk. I'll try to make a post today. I'm usually working in the lab, which makes it easy to spend a minute or so writing a post throughout the day as I wait on this instrument or that machine to load up or run or something. Today, I'm training some new operators on the production floor. So I won't be able to post until tonight, after I put the kids to bed. Or if I'm lucky, lunch break.
I keep on forgetting, should we invite Alex back?
Ehhhh...he's a bit flaky when it comes to these games. I love playing with him, but working him in and out every few months is exhausting.
You guys can talk to him if you like (he doesn't post much on subSPUF any more either though, and I can't remember when I last saw him on Steam) I think I wouldn't even bother with a re-introduction.
Plus, Cyrdic would be kinda miffed about how he was quietly replaced as captain.
Ok, that took a hefty minute to type all that on my phone while looking back through the posts go figure out what was going on.
What, exactly, do we want with Arronax? Does someone else want to step in? Or tell me telepathically?
I'm a bit confused by that as well, but I figured I'd let you guys have a crack at it.
It'd be a shame to waste such big walls of text and good Diplomacy rolls at this point.
Making up for bad class design with good roleplaying. Oh yeah!
So I was planning on picking up ranks in heal when I leveled to 8, and it turns out that it isn't a class skill. Being a Battle Medic does not add heal as a class skill to the tactician class.
Oh well. With psychic reformation, I set it up so 8 skill points were allocated at this level up to a single skill, so with ten minutes of prep I can gain 8 skill points in any one skill we need. I can also grab Skills As One and make it so we pick a skill and use whoever has the highest ranks for each of us affected by the spell.
With 8 PP, I can effect 5 of us up to 10 ranks for two skills for 8 rounds. You're treated as if you actually have those ranks in that skill, so if it's a class skill, you get that bonus and it's treated as trained for trained only skills.
So I've been mulling things over for a while now RE: intimidate.
I've been trying for a while to reconcile "Jrahk easily makes the DC" with "This person would clearly not just give in to his demands and be afraid of him" for a while now.
In combat, this is easy to justify. Give them the Demoralized deficit and just say they're doubtful, temporarily thrown off their game. Is he better than he looks? Ace up his sleeve? Etc. I've been doing this pretty much.
The problem comes with the social use of it. RAW it works on anyone...but that doesn't make a ton of sense. Intimidate works off the target being a afraid of you, which someone who could OHKO you is not going to be. RAW Jrahk could have scared Captain Bonefist into handing over his crown and the AP would be over because the DC is only like 28-30 for that check (10 +18 HD+Whatever his Wis mod is). Which is ridiculous.
So I figured I'd be open on this one and try to work to make a codified set of guidelines for those types of scenarios, since it HAS come up in the past (You tried to Intimidate Tsadok that way, and I had to veto that even though the check passed by like 5, even though he was level 16).
These are loose, and do not apply to the combat use via Cornugon Smash and the like.
The main deal is: You can't bully someone into giving what you want if they're in a position of power over you, unless you get real creative about it or put yourself on equal footing with them. Characters 12 levels above you are not going to be afraid of you hurting them. Ever.
If you can find some weak spot to push ("I've kidnapped your sister, do as I say"), then this restriction is waived, or at least lessened.
I also tossed around the idea of making it an opposed Cha check (Str if you have Intimidating prowess) but that just adds more time to the game and we don't need that.
That's fair. There's no reason Jrahk should think he can threaten every single person he meets, especially with so many badass pirate captains out there. It just means he needs to find some leverage over that person, or better yet, become more badass himself!
That said, I'd appreciate some sort of vague descriptor to indicate when someone is too strong to be pushed around. "He seems to be looking down upon you", "She has a bored look on her face, like you're not worth her time", that kind of thing. Wouldn't want Jrahk to start snarling and flexing his muscles when he's in the presence of a god of the sea.
I have actually been doing that when you come across dudes you can't take for the most part. Giles is kind of on the borderline, actually, which is why I had him nearly insult you several times. He could take any one of you guys pretty easy, and put up a decent fight even in manacles if you decided to kill him.
He had you studied for an Assassinate attack the whole time you were talking to him, so you stepping in to kill him while he was in chains could have been interesting.
Cute. But wouldn't making the decision to kill him mean that I automatically "recognize him as an enemy"?
Why wouldn't I expect him to retaliate after I go "OK time to die now"?
Eh, I figure you wouldn't recognize him as a threat, which is really what matters. It's not like people who are super paranoid and view everyone in the world as an enemy are immune to being assassinated or something. IMO it would work in that scenario.
Fair 'nuff. I admit that Jrahk definitely wouldn't see him as much of a threat. Their previous encounter (from Jrahk's perspective) involved Giles running like a b*tch before getting curbstomped.
He could very well walk up to Giles, falchion in hand, thinking "Look at this scrawly little coward, what can he possible do to - WHOA WHY IS THERE BLOOD COMING OUT OF MY THROAT?!"
I guess I'll start paying better attention when you mention that certain characters aren't taking my threats seriously.
Eh. Just for what it's worth, you've basically outright stated that there are no surprise rounds in the middle of conversation if the two sides are established as unfriendly. I'd view this much the same way.
Plus, as soon as Jrahk comes in for the kill he's taking a combat action so there's that.
The intimidate thing is totally reasonable though.
Sorry guys. My whole family is sick, so I don't have enough time/energy to make a meaningful post. Life is currently: get up, go to work, shuffle like a zombie, get off work and pick up kids, survive the evening with sick kids, put kids to bed, pass out, wake up multiple times throughout the night to take care of sick kids, wake up when alarm goes off at 4:45 am, get ready for work. Repeat. This illness needs to go away.
Last night my son woke up at 1 am with a fever of 103.
I'll try and post something meaningful once one of us gets better. Until then I'm having a difficult time focusing.
S'cool. We can dilly dally about until you're ready to do whatever.
Sounds rough, man. It's no problem.
Check yourself before you shrek yourself, take it easy for a bit, man.
Update: kids are starting to get better. I had my first full night of sleep in a week on Saturday night. I'm better, too. Fever finally broke Friday night. Still have a viscious cough, but drugs help.
Will be a bit sporadic posting through MAYBE Monday. Moving out of this house today, and driving 16 hours to get to the new one on Saturday. May be able to get internet Saturday, maybe not.
where you goin?
Back to Maryland. Same area, better place.
Time warner has betrayed us. I may need to be bottled for a bit.
*Ghost voice* Reincarnate. The reincarnate tables are so much fun.
How about no.
I did make up an Extended table. You could end up as anything from a Grippli to a Svetocher!
I hope he becomes a grippli.
I'll toss in for a gift certificate if he chooses Reincarnate
I will pay for a Raise Dead and two Restorations out of my own pocket if I have to.
You are too dead for a Raise Dead (it requires a whole corpse).
There's just shy of enough in the Party Fund for a Resurrection though.
But, of course, a Reincarnate would be SO much cheaper. And more fun! I'll even give you the "roll twice and pick your favorite" option.
--Level Up!--
I took Magic Missile and Cat's Grace for my new spells. The 1st-level Bloodrager list is quickly running out of things that interest me, because anything with a save is worthless.
Also took Improved Bull Rush for my bloodline feat, as a prerequisite for my 9th level feat, which is...
Rynjin and I talked a while back and agreed that I could use this monster feat as long as I'm raging. It's a combat maneuver that deals damage (weapon damage in my case, Rynj decided), pushes the target 10 feet away, AND knocks them prone.
Basically game over for anything Medium sized, especially if I have Long Arm up.
I am going to bow out of the campaign. It has been an immense pleasure to game with you all personally. However, I am not enjoying the game itself. I'm not sure if it is my character, Skulls & Shackles (which my home game abandoned before the first book even ended), or if I'm just tired of the Pathfinder system on a whole since I started GMing a 5e campaign.
Thank you for the wonderful opportunity to game with you all.
With Rynjin's permission, my character would spend his gold to help in Jrahk's ressurection.
Ah. Sorry to hear that. If it's something about my GMing style, I can take some constructive criticism if you want to lay it on me.
It's actually not. You've been a very good GM, and I would be happy to game with you and everyone else here again.
I think it's more that since I've been playing 5e, I've been becoming less and less interested in Pathfinder as a system. Combined with the minimal mechanical contributions of my favorite characters, I'm just ready to move on to a new system. If you would like to start a 5e campaign, I would love to join a PBP of that.
I'm currently running Out of the Abyss at home, but would be happy to play in that or any other 5e campaign. Conversely, there are still several 3PP parts of pathfinder I've been wanting to try, such as Spheres of Power, but it would not be good in a campaign where Vancian magic still exists.
Well I DID invite you to the Steampunk game at the same time. =)
Casters banned, Psionics and Path of War allowed.
I... have no recollection of that. :)
Maybe that was GreenTea. Thought for sure I had invited you and you said you wanted minimal homebrew. Guess that was him.
Seems more likely to be GTG. I'm perfectly ok with house rules. After all, I played a psionic class here. :)