Finesse Weapons

One of the things that frustrates me about 3.x/PF is the necessity of expending resources on a finesse weapon that is mechanically inferior to a two-handed weapon (yes I know Curveblade is finesse but it's a special snowflake that I choose to ignore).

The TWF finesse fighter concept is something I think a lot of people like to play (I blame Driz'zt among others) but it's something that is mechanically difficult to pull off without taking a substantial hit vs the THF build.

My goals are as follows:

1)Reduce the number of feats necessary for finesse fighter builds.

2)Make TWF closer to parity with the THF build.

3)Increase DPR for Rogue/Monk builds.

I've run a couple scenarios with somewhat unsatisfying results, so I thought I'd list them and the issues I've encountered thus far.

Solution 1) Make finesse a quality of the weapon. You use a short sword you can use Dex to hit or Str to hit. Basically this eliminates the feat tax for a finesse fighter build.

Problem 1) However it really doesn't do anything about shoring up the offensive production of a finesse build. I'm not really sure the increase in AC associated with a higher Dex is a good trade off.

Solution 2) Make finesse a quality of the weapon but have dex modify damage as well as to hit. This eliminates the feat tax associated with finesse fighter builds plus it substantially shores up the DPR of finesse fighter builds. Because the finesse fighter is spending less to boost strength for damage purposes they can focus on dex primarily. This reduces the MAD nature of finesse builds.

Problem 2) While this makes dex TWF competitive with THF builds in terms of DPR this tends to boost TWF rogues past the base DPR of the THF. In theory I'm not completely opposed to this as I feel that rogues should have situational burst damage > average base damage of fighters but it might be too much. My primary concern is that dex-shifted small-tiny monsters will receive a massive increase in power. I don't want a scenario where a tiny housecat is a significant threat to PCs.

Solution 3) As per Solution 2 but make Weapon Finesse a feat. This increases DPR and makes weapon finesse less of a tax. It also allows the GM the ability to turn this feature on and off. This helps in regards to all the small creatures.

Problem 3) It's a bit kludgy and gets back to two many feats required.

Solution 4) As per Solution 2 but apply negative strength modifiers to the dex modifiers. This solves the small/tiny dex focused creature problem but is pretty kludgy. It also requires a psuedo-derived number. But effectively it brings the DPR closest to what I want to achieve.

Ideas, concerns?

WEAPON FINESSE (COMBAT)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, natural weapon, or weapon with the “finesse” property made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls and when calculating CMB. Additionally, you can substitute your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier when calculating any Strength-dependent DCs for critical feats you possess.
If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

This is a feat I created for similar reasons:

One Hand Master [Combat]
You are adept at fighting with a weapon in one hand while the other is empty.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Weapon Finesse, Base attack bonus +1
Benefit: While wielding a one-handed weapon for which the weapon finesse feat applies to in one hand, with your other hand kept free, you may apply half of your Dexterity modifier to damage in addition to your Strength modifier. This feat only applies if you are wearing light or no armor, and wearing a buckler or no shield.

I spent several weeks ranting and raving about this recently. You can go through the archives if you really want to confirm.

At first, I was very much in the "dex to damage" camp. I was talking about a single talent that gave Agile Maneuvers, Weapon Finesse, and Dex to damage.

Then I did the math; with dex to damage and sneak attack, a 5th level Rogue out-damages a 5th-level Fighter (Fighter was power-attacking so Attack was same bonus). That should never happen, especially not with a class like the Rogue that has so many other toys, so I had to take a step back and re-evaluate.

Here's the conclusion I eventually came to:

* Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse should be combined into a single feat

* Monks need the above feat on their bonus feat list, starting at level one
** The above point should be enough to make Dex Monks viable.

* Rogues need to be able to take the above feat with their "Finesse Rogue" talent.
* Rogues should get Improved Feint for free, either at level one or level two, provided they already have Combat Expertise.
** The above two points should be enough to make Dex Rogues (that aren't spamming TWF) viable.

Setting aside "D&D" and "mechanic issues" for a second, when you think of "a graceful, agile, precise" sort of character, and imagine this character fighting, does he win by standing in one place and bludgeoning his opponents to death with his raw grace? Or does he win by being agile, maneuverable, and using tricks/traps/skill against his opponent?

Shouldn't Dex-based characters work the same way mechanically? Dex-based characters don't need dex to damage, they need dex to CMB and some brains.

In other words, dex-based characters shouldn't do loads and loads of damage, they should be masters of harassment - hindering opponents, distracting enemies, and so on.

Of course, this sort of character doesn't work in campaigns that deal mainly with size huge and larger creatures and larger, but most character concepts have parallel pitfalls (druids in urban games, enchanters in undead-heavy games, rangers with difficult DMs, etc).

Rogues in particular need this sort of highly-focused help; they don't need more damage, they need more reliable damage. Improved Feint isn't worth taking in large part because Feint is so un-reliable, so giving them the feat for "free" (cost = nudge towards Combat Maneuvers) isn't a huge deal - they still need a decent charisma and Skill Focus in order to be independent.

In Pathfinder, dex-based characters occupy the same niche that blaster-casters do; they need either a few minor house rules or several rather obscure references in order to be viable, and they'll never be quite as mainstream as their more prominent builds (damage warriors and controller casters), but they do work, and can be loads of fun.

Solution 4) As per Solution 2 but apply negative strength modifiers to the dex modifiers. This solves the small/tiny dex focused creature problem but is pretty kludgy. It also requires a psuedo-derived number. But effectively it brings the DPR closest to what I want to achieve.

This is what I've done. Weapon Finesse is free and it's just a quality of light weapons and rapiers. You can attack using your Str or Dex bonus. No feat tax.

Level 4 Rogues, Monks, Bards, and Duelists can purchase the Greater Weapon Finesse feat which allows the character to inflict Dex bonus as damage instead of Str. Negative Str bonuses negatively impact damage still (so you can't just dump Str entirely).

I don't really find it makes these characters too powerful because:
a) Each of these classes typically has crappy AC, it could use buffing by 1-2 points
b) Each of these classes has sub-standard DPS, which could use buffing
c) In stories, they are icons of high Dex heroes, it would be nice if they played well mechanically too
d) They are still taxed some feats if they chose this route, it's not free

I'm going to go one step farther too, I reduced Power Attack back to 3.5 levels (-1 hit = +2 damage). NOW, everything is more balanced in terms of DPS.

* Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse should be combined into a single feat

* Monks need the above feat on their bonus feat list, starting at level one
** The above point should be enough to make Dex Monks viable.

* Rogues need to be able to take the above feat with their "Finesse Rogue" talent.

+1. Especially since STR-based characters don't have to spend a feat to apply their STR to both amred and unarmed attacks.

*

Rogues should get Improved Feint for free, either at level one or level two, provided they already have Combat Expertise.

Hmmm.... I'd have to think about that one. IF not, at least make is available as a rogue talent.

** The above two points should be enough to make Dex Rogues (that aren't spamming TWF) viable.

I can see that.

Setting aside "D&D" and "mechanic issues" for a second, when you think of "a graceful, agile, precise" sort of character, and imagine this character fighting, does he win by standing in one place and bludgeoning his opponents to death with his raw grace? Or does he win by being agile, maneuverable, and using tricks/traps/skill against his opponent?

Shouldn't Dex-based characters work the same way mechanically? Dex-based characters don't need dex to damage, they need dex to CMB and some brains.

In other words, dex-based characters shouldn't do loads and loads of damage, they should be masters of harassment - hindering opponents, distracting enemies, and so on.

Of course, this sort of character doesn't work in campaigns that deal mainly with size huge and larger creatures and larger, but most character concepts have parallel pitfalls...

I agree with all of the above. Which is why I feel that, conceptually, the Critical Focus tree fits better with Finesse fighting than Power Attack. Perhaps make it so that characters with Power Attack and Combat Expertise don't have to have as high a BAB to be eligible for Critical Focus? Just a thought.