Uhm, nope. Hence why I pointed out I would not use them without first checking with people in discussion. E.g. if there was some situation were Suggestion would make sense, I'd still first check with the player in question, not just go ahead.
Innocence, I think, is innocently enough, but yeah, Sow thought is a different beast(and again one I would never use on party without working out agreement OOC first).
No, the question was "in general" - planting some thoughts in some NPC's mind is sweet and flavorful. But as said, it seems very hard to use, depending on overall setting.
I think it's one of those things that depend on GM world interpretation.
How prevalent are casters? Is it a rare gift only few possess or will there be a few in every village as it's too useful to not have someone capable of it?
Do they use cantrips freely, with nobody even turning a head if they hear someone casting? Or will casting a spell draw the attention of everybody and their dog in the whole marketplace?
As said, I think from a pure "concept" point of view, there are many spells that fit with a charming mental manipulator splendidly - but if they are technically unusable in regular gameplay, then just having them for sake of flavor is undesirable, regardless.
(e.g. not being able to pre-cast innocence on "scene change", thus having to draw extra suspicion by finding a pretext where it can be cast before making a statement. - or secretly implanting a thought in some guards head only for everybody knowing I just used magic and attributing any non-regular behaviour on his part to me anyway...(where I would be better off just "bluffing" the guard into acting a certain way))
Don't get me wrong - sow thought is level 1, I definitely don't expect it to duplicate Suggestion, but I was trying to find concepts or situations where I could reliably use it without it being more trouble than boon.
I DID consider using innocence if pushed for a certain point by Amandine and Meraki, and figured I'll just attach the question as well, sorry if the intent given seemed to imply using those on PC's.
(Mind control versus PC's is something I abhor, with the sole exception of re-controlling someone already under enemy control, then working with the player OOC. E.g. dominating one of us that got charmed by the enemy so "we" are back under control. In all other cases I consider that to be way too invasive towards other people who have a connection with their characters.)
Important message to all my games:
My wife tested positive for Covid yesterday. I'm taking some time off work to look after her and our two-year-old daughter. All three of us are vaccinated, so hopefully we will get through this soon.
In the meantime, my ability to post will be severely compromised. I will try to update when I have time (such as when my wife and daughter are both sleeping), but I can't make any promises.
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
No problem at all Vayelan. If a very small sample size is worth anything, I had Covid after being vaccinated, and I know a few other people who have as well.
For me it wasn't that much different from a cold, but it did linger a little longer. The others had more or less the same experience, less severe and shorter. Hopefully the same will the true for your wife. Take care!
No problem.
For me, it was a bit more than cold, more like a hard-hitting flu - triple vaccinated(but considered an at-risk-patient due to pre-existing condition) - but at no point to the extent I would have even considered the need for a hospital.
For S/O it was a much milder case.
Either way, being vacced seems to help a lot, so here's hoping. And family(one cares about) is first, always, so you'll have any amount of patience you'll need, from me. :)
Wishing y'all a swift recovery!
Vayelan, everyone is recovering just fine? You're back quickly!
Thankfully, my wife and daughter recovered quite quickly.
Our daughter was asymptomatic, so when we took her to be tested so she could be admitted back to daycare and the test came up positive, it was very surprising. She never lost any energy or appetite, never had a fever, and never had any breathing problems, so we weren't worried.
My wife was bedridden for the first two or three days, then she slowly but surely got back on her feet. She likened the experience to the time when she got bronchitis, although this was worse.
Anyhow, my wife returned to work earlier this week, and our daughter returned to daycare, so things are back to normal.
Greenly frowns and whispers to Amandine, "Do we really try to keep holding on to this?"
I thought about this for a while. I decided even a failed bluff asserting Amandine as legitimately a Betony on technical grounds might be better than caving and blurting out the truth as soon as someone thinks to ask the question. Voinum may never believe the lie, but flipping as soon as the slightest bit of pressure is applied just looks like incompetence or foolishness. Voinum might also be canny enough to understand that Amandine has very practical reasons to admit nothing. It isn't personal. She might know it's a lie, and Amandine might know that she knows it's a lie, but the lie must remain in place. Why would Amandine submit to a lifetime of Voiunum having critical leverage over her just because Voinum guessed well? Besides, Amandine really does have the documentation.
I don't know if it was the right choice though.
If Voinum both doesn't go for the bluff and takes it poorly, coming out of the gate strongly on mutual disgust for Count Lotheed could counterbalance it. Amandine is going to have more to say about that to Voinum yet. I just figured it might be best to stop at the present and give Voinum room to reply.
Also, aid attempts on the bluff and diplomacy rolls are welcome!
I'm afraid that she already did her research before coming on like that. That's not a casual accusation.
Hence why I opted for diversion/"does that really matter" instead of outright doubling down on your bluff. I would assume that still qualifies as an assist.
That said, I think having a few people in the know but supporting her claim would be valuable, even if it means they would have some leverage.
First: Even if they do have that leverage, applying it is another matter entirely, because we can still double down if someone calls the bluff - and secondly, having someone on your side who knows could really help IF someone else is trying to call you out on it.
Say Lotheed is trying to call you into question, Voinum could step in and declare that complete nonsense, bluffing about how someone once told her about your branch of the family tree. i.e. if we have "allies" on the inside that could cover for non-allies asking questions. She seems worth having on your good side.
Totally not my call to make, but wanted to explain my thoughts regardless.
I'm really sorry, I've been having a hard time lately as a medicine I have to take every day has been subject to a national shortage, and I didn't get any warning before having to essentially go cold turkey.
You're cool! You do what you need to do. We can handle things until things better for you if you need a break or whatever.
Is it time to announce our plan outright to our first ally? The Baroness could help us plan the party to propose it also to Crabbe, Telus and Okerra
That's throwing a LOT on the table and hoping for the best. She may not want to help the Princess ascend the throne in the end.
I'm not against it, just saying that's its a ballsy move and could come back to bite us. It would move the story forward too.
I have the same problem with a medicine and national shortage Meraki, possibly the same one. It sucks and I hope it ends soon! Hang in there!
I must have misunderstood something from way back at some point. The reason Amandine has been leaning on the Lotheed/Pythareus meetings as possibly treasonous was I thought Merrat was a Stavian property rather than a crown property.
In the former case the Stavians are on their own the Counts of Merrat regardless of the issue of who is Grand Prince. Typical family rules of succession.
If Merrat is a crown possession instead, whoever is Crown Prince holds the title Count of Merrat. For a real world example, The eldest son of the King or Queen of Britain holds the title Duke of Cornwall, no single family holds the title. If another family replaced the House of Windsor as the UK's monarchs the title of Duke of Cornwall would transfer with the crown.
It's a legalistic distinction, but what Amandine has been trying to do is keep the question of who is rightfully Grand Prince/Princess of Taldor out of picture. Baroness Voinum could then oppose Eutropia taking the crown, but still recognize her rights as Countess of Merrat. Same with any of the various nobles in Merrat. It was supposed to make room for nobles who weren't necessarily willing to go all in for Eutropia taking the crown to still side with us.
Oh well, it looks like we made it to where we need to be anyway.
There is the halfway measure we can take, same as what Amandine did with Baron Okerra. It just so happens Okerra went all in right away without Amandine really asking him to yet.
Remember we've always had the document of the legal decision saying Princess Eutropia can revoke the county's stewardship and assume direct controll of Merrat. We're just here as the ones to serve notice of the eviction and ensure Lotheed complies.
Nobody has been told about it yet though, for similar reasons as above. Amandine has reasoned that if a case is made against the Lotheeds as bad stewards, then it's a smaller step to convince the local nobility they'd be better off with Eutropia controlling Meratt, even if they're not keen on Eutropia ruling Taldor. Again the idea is to keep the politics local.
Amandine told Okerra that she has written the Princess about Lotheed's bad stewardship, but said nothing about any decision. The next step, when we've tried to persuade all the nobles Lotheed must go, is to tell them roughly: "hey! The Princess took it to court when she found out, and the court ruled in her favor. She sent me the document and I have it in hand now. All we have to do is make Lotheed vacate."
The side benefit is since nobody will know about the court document we have until it's almost time to move against him, the Count can't find out from anyone it exists early, which would be bad for us I think.
So, we can tell Voinum the same thing. The Princess has been informed and Amandine has asked her to intervene. If Voinum reacts positively, we turn around in a few days and inform everyone the decision is in and the court found in Eutropia's favor. Time to run him out of the county! If she doesn't like that Amandine is writing letters to Eutropia complaining about Lotheed for some reason, she doesn't get invited to the planning party.
What Amandine has been telling everyone is mostly true, she's just been messing with the timeline so the Count doesn't know we have the document, and so we look less like agents of Eutropia and more like actual new neighbors to the local nobility, who understand their pain and frustration because we feel it too.
Want Amandine to take that half-step rather than going all the way right now?
Compromise is often key in politics and war: The half-step sounds safer, and Voinum may even respect your ability to deftly maneuver in our current dangerous environment.
Give me an assassin to foil, a monster to fight, or a pocket to pick anyday...politics just hurt my brain too much sometimes.
=)
I must have misunderstood something from way back at some point. The reason Amandine has been leaning on the Lotheed/Pythareus meetings as possibly treasonous was I thought Merrat was a Stavian property rather than a crown property.
In the former case the Stavians are on their own the Counts of Merrat regardless of the issue of who is Grand Prince. Typical family rules of succession.
You set this in motion before my participation, so of course, whatever feels fine to you - but I agree that playing it 'safe' as much as possible may be preferable.
That said, I think Eutropia taking over Birdsong Palace could be spun both ways...not just as a 'stepping stone' to more, but also as something to both keep her "occupied" and replace Lotheed at the same time.
Voinum is a staunch traditionalist - on our side, but conservative all the same. She may not want to see Eutropia ascend the throne(not yet, anyway), but she can hardly argue against a woman as head of an estate without hypocrisy.
What I mean is that we can always "sell" current developments as being favorable in the eyes of whoever we are talking with, and don't really have to include anybody in "whats up next?" or justify future plans. She is keen enough to see the bigger picture, but confirmation bias is a thing, regardless. If she gets to see what she wants to see, she has no mental reason to dig deeper.
So yeah, telling her we asked for intervention, seeing how she reacts, then eventually/possible let her know that there may be a replacement for Lotheed coming sounds fine.
As Greenly said (thank you for linking the explanation from Martella!), the Palace of Birdsong legally belongs to Eutropia. Count Bartelby is basically just stonewalling, believing that the princess doesn't have the means or will to force him to surrender the estate.
Your central goal in this AP book is to prove him very wrong.
Thanks to your efforts so far, Baroness Voinum is leaning more towards supporting Princess Eutropia, but that larger scale issue isn't really part of your core mission right now.
The important part is that Baroness Voinum will support your effort to confront the Count and force him to turn over the estate to Eutropia.
Yeah, I guess the details of what I thought was up sort of mutated over time. We have been in book 2 for something like 4 years now.
On that subject how does everyone feel about that party idea? Back when I first brought it up, I was thinking about those persona phases we do here and there. I was thinking we could combine one of those with the party to plot Lotheed's overthrow with our allies.
But, that would probably mean a few more weeks at the least before moving on to the end game action. Does anyone want to spend that much time? If not maybe we could do a a quick set of cuts scenes without RP to move us to the end? As far as I know we've done everything there is to do except make our move against Lotheed.
I suppose there is also a middle path where we do the plotting party as a pure persona phase to keep it quick as well. We haven't hd one of those in a long while.
I figured I should ask because I feel like I've continually pushed for the most painstaking and drawn out version of how to play book 2. I'm sure there are alternative ways it could have been done in less time. At least some of you probably want to murder me, at least occasionally, for taking such a long route through it. If you're itching for some momentum, it's at this point where I think we could get some. For example, we've done what we need to at Voinum's place, we could just cut the scene now and move on without playing out the rest of our stay.
As the recent addition, I've not had the pleasure of taking part in the last 4 years :D
So I'm abstaining from deciding on anything, and simply want to say I'm ok with however we want to proceed.
I have to admit I don't know how the persona stuff and the artifact magical items interact. Amandine doesn't have any of those items so I haven't payed much attention.
I truly am not mad about the slow pace, I like feeling like we're getting everything done that we can in the County, we even have a tenuous alliance with the Night Swan. And of course you've done the bulk of the planning and pushing, you're team leader, at least rn, but maybe you'll get to step back if you would like to for the next book, Amandine will get to relax some.
Yeah, I don't know what to expect from book 3, but if the Lady Betony persona isn't required for it maybe we can move back toward more normal party dynamics. It's not that I mind, I've had a great time in book 2. It really is my bag. But I did worry that I've sort of swallowed the game, and it's cut down on how meaningfully other players can contribute to shaping what we do plot-wise.
As she adventures, the wielder of a relic might achieve great deeds, called triumphs, tied to the item’s associated cause, which she can apply to the relic to increase its power. Each volume of the War for the Crown Adventure Path indicates which deeds qualify as a triumph for the relics of old Taldor. Each PC involved in achieving a triumph can apply that triumph to up to one of her carried relics, unlocking the next set of abilities for that item.
An individual relic can attain only the triumphs for which it is present, so if the PCs achieved two triumphs before finding Koriana’s Blade, the sword wouldn’t gain the benefits listed under First Triumph until the PCs’ third triumph. To be present for a triumph, a relic needs to be worn, held, or carried (as opposed to being stored in a bag of holding, for instance), and the PC carrying it must have been involved in the triumph in some way. Some triumphs improve on existing abilities, such as granting more uses of an ability per day or increasing a relic’s enhancement bonus from +1 to +2. All other triumph abilities are cumulative with the item’s base abilities and with each other. For example, a relic that has attained two triumphs grants both its first-triumph and second-triumph abilities along with its base abilities.
Who has one of them at this point? How many do we even have?
I'm the worst at tracking gear.
I have the Ring, either Dro'gan or no one has Dignity's Barb, Olivia? has Koriana's Blade and I don't know if anyone has claimed the mask Atratus gave us but it would be a good fit on everyone
I have Dignity’ Barb, the crossbow.
Meraki has the mask.
I have the same problem with a medicine and national shortage Meraki, possibly the same one. It sucks and I hope it ends soon! Hang in there!
In my case, my primary medication was the one people got switched to, but that wound up just making more shortages, and now the original one is back in supply, lol. I was able to get an alternate medication which seems to be doing the trick, and I'm feeling much better now.
I do indeed have the mask.
Feels like our mission has succeeded and our business in Voinaris has finished! Party planning? How are we gonna invite everyone but NOT the Count and avoid a watchful eye?
For what it's worth, since you have won over Barons Okerra, Telus, and Voinum, every major noble in the county below the Count himself is now on your side. They can also help you by extending invites to the county's lesser nobles (knights, lords, ladies, etc.) that can be trusted.
Should we just do the party as an 'out of game' rolling affair? This would save us a bunch of time I think. Make it another Persona phase?
How does the Night Swan feel about us? I know Dro'gan has met with her, we helped her rob the tax collector, and I remember giving her the bouquet at the Jubilee (assuming Chana successfully identified her)
And what about our commoner allies, like the people in the Beggarwood?
Just a thought:
What if we invite the Count himself as well to the party?
If he declines the invite, good, then it's totally not suspicious to have the event without him.
If he decides to come, we can serve him the eviction warrant right there, with all kinds of nobles "on our side".
That moment he can either accept - which will be binding in the eyes of the nobles - or refuse, which will justify any action taken against him.
As said, just an idea to slightly alter the plan as it seems everybody is already fully on board and we may not even need further plotting before setting things in motion.
High high high risk there that if he disagrees, he makes it way harder for us to overthrow him, more knights, maybe he lays siege to Stachys, bunch of options. It's especially risky considering Voinum's latest offer to simply pull some knights off duty when we go in there to kick shit up, like if they know that while they're away their liege is going to be attacked and arrested/possibly murdered, would they ignore the Baroness's call?
I think the risk is too great, altho him choosing to just not show is certainly possible (but I think he'd send his lapdog or his wastrel cousin to deal with us in his stead if he didn't show)
I also don't think we've out and out told anyone we plan on attacking the Palace other than the Baroness, who technically brought it up first (but we were NOT being subtle in our implications)
I agree with Mira on inviting Count Lotheed. It will look less suspicious, the only way to manage it. If he snubs us and doesn't come, great! If he does come, we can wait him out for a day or so (long party), and hope he'll only be coming to make an appearance and leave as soon as possible, or get bored and leave. Then the planning begins. If we really have to we do have a secret room in the mansion, and our three domovoi friends to help with misdirection and covert communication.
I wouldn't serve papers to Lotheed at the party though. I think we would have to abduct him on the spot, which is a bad look. At worst it looks like kidnapping. Remember he's not under arrest or anything, he just has to vacate the palace. It also looks like an ambush, which could come off as scummy to some of our allies who like things to be proper. If he' able to leave, Lotheed would know we're coming and have time to prepare.
My feeling is there's not supposed to be any kind of mass combat element to this. In the end it will be the party, (along with a named NPC or two?) having to go in and root Lotheed and cronies out of the palace. Maybe there's a show of force, and our allies have troops sealing off the palace from outside aid to Lotheed while we go in, but I think everything happening in Meratt outside the palace will be done as fluff, just described without any dice rolled.
I think most of our allies, noble and otherwise, could be seen as locking down the county and keeping order while we take care of the palace. Maybe sending security to Stachys since it's an obvious retaliatory target. Most important is nobody out there is aiding Lotheed. For example, maybe the nobles keep order in the towns, preventing rioting and looting if word is getting out. Our Beggarwood allies and similar cut travel by blocking the roads, etc.
I'm perfectly fine with doing the planning party as a social phase like the Tanager Jubilee. I enjoy that sort of stuff. But it could take a long time, and would be a lot more work all around.
My original intention with the party was to do it as a Persona Phase like Dro'gan mentioned. It could be a group phase. Some of the persona phase activities are normally hard to shoehorn in, but would work well here, like "Arrange Secret Meeting" and "Organize Party". We might not get other chances at those. Most of the easy to fit ones apply to the party also.
We'd just need to write a long post each for the phase and make one roll. It's been a long time now since we've had a persona phase so if we're behind on them maybe we could do it as two phases, something like phase 1 is the party and phase two is the conspiracy planning.
Probably it's better for us to go the Persona Phase route if we want to ensure we see Book 3 in 2023. Even after to party we'll still have however mucch time it takes to clear the palace and wrap up before we start book 3.
Aye. I am not aware of the exact individual power levels - the idea was that if he disagrees, we could settle things right then and there - not on his land.
And if he agrees and then attempts to do a 180° after, then that would push all of the nobles to "Voinum"-levels of support.
I mean, I suppose it depends on how we'd want to do this anyway. Do we serve him the eviction notice and see how he reacts? Or just sneak in in the middle of the night with guards pulled off and then use the eviction as pretext for what we did?
(If the former, he'll have time to prep either way - if the later, would that not seem...scummy?)
As said, it was just a passing thought, but depending on what our plan is, I was wondering if we could do anything during a party we host, when it's technically "our turf" rather than potentially hostile territory.
(I mean, technically, there's also the chance he learns of the party, comes with a full knight detachment, and tries to round all of the guests up claiming treason, figuring he'll replace all the nobles with underlings of his - so maybe there will be some action at the event either way ;) )
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I think the best balance between surprise, which I don't think we can do without coming off as kind of awful, and notifying him in a way that gives him time to prepare is rolling up to the gate in force to deliver the eviction order.
We give him the chance to agree to vacate that day, and if he refuses we go in immediately. We're offering him a peaceful resolution, but without the time needed to call in any help from elsewhere. Not surprised but without time to react seems cleanest to me.
If we had all the Barons there with us at the time we deliver the notice, it should clue him in that there will be no help coming and we have the power to force him out if he resists. If he chooses badly, it's isn't our fault.
Thanks for explaining the plan.
I guess if he refuses at that point, we'll run into the same issue with the guards Voinum could call of as Greenly mentioned.
But I like that there's no "clear best way" to handle this, and we'll just have to lean into some set of options and roll with it.
There could be options for those guards Voinum knows depending on what she tells them. By the end of the party she should know a go date for when we'll be arriving at the palace. She could tell them to just home that day or leave the day before. Or, they could stand aside at the time and let us pass if they're present.
I could try and infiltrate either as a servant or entertainer in advance so I can help from the inside once the action starts as well. With the aid of some well placed guards who know to help me, that could be pretty serious boost.
The Swan hates anything to do with nobility, but I’ve started her on a path to understanding that harming the nobility can have consequences to the common people too. Basically life is not black and white, and the Galtan way of killing off nobility is just a waste of time in the end. Power corrupts, regardless who has it. Sort of. I think?
There could be options for those guards Voinum knows depending on what she tells them. By the end of the party she should know a go date for when we'll be arriving at the palace. She could tell them to just home that day or leave the day before. Or, they could stand aside at the time and let us pass if they're present.
But do we risk that? I mean, we come rolling to the gate in force, AND let his guards know to take a day off.
I've never met the man, but unless he is completely incapable(and I am not saying he is not), chances are someone might let something slip, or some spy notice something - I mean, thats a lot of coordination that assumes he learns nothing, has no agents himself, just so we can manage surprise. If some guard captain loyal to him comes up and tells him that half his guys didn't show...I think if you intend to show up with the Baroness at the gate, she should just tell them right there to let us pass/pick a side - and not plan to involve any secret messages to his guys that could reach a wrong ear or get intercepted-
She could just say she needs them for something, like "I would consider it a personal favor if you could help your old mentor with xyz"
But if she does that, they'll probably not go AWOL. They expect to keep their jobs, and will inform their captain that they will not be standing guard at the rear entrance that day, rather than just assume nobody will check.
Which would lead to someone else being placed there, AND the captain being suspicious why Voinum needs so many of his guys to help with something.
Na, thats the point, for the guards not guarding to have an impact, it would need to be something our enemy can't plan for or work around. It has to be sudden and unexpected, and that means nobody can inform someone in advance they will be gone that day, or call in sick, or anything. Their shift comes up, they relieve the previous shift, then just go. Even if they just don't show up, there will still be the previous guards and possibly an alert.
I mean, sure, a couple fewer guys is decent, but I think the main benefit was to get in somewhere without raising an alarm or laying siege to the place - as in, the advantage was in giving us access, not in diminishing manpower.
Since it's a case of one NPC talking to other NPCs, and those NPCs acting on what they're told, maybe we should just let Vayelan clarify?
Sure. I just meant to say that "roll up at the front gate in force" and "prepare to sneak in during the night" are two very different kinds of surprise - and trying to organize/do/prepare both simultaneously might be risky in terms of Lotheed learning ANYTHING.
But whatever is decided, I'm fine with it.
We try and do both? Great.
Just wanted to do some risk assessment, sorry I seemingly turned it into a discussion-.
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FWIW, I think rolling up in force and kicking him out with visible support from both the peasants and the leading nobles is way better optics
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Also, I'm pretty sure his 'operatives' are run by a guy we've discredited in his eyes recently (with the Swan helping). He might still be getting info from them, but he might not be believing everything they tell him right now either.
Additionally, I think I was lead to believe the guy is a decent spellcaster? A sorcerer maybe? At least HE thinks so? So he will probably put up at least a minimal fight, then 'maybe-possibly' teleport or something away once he knows he can't win.
Just putting that out there.