Yes. There have been feats, talents etc that do nothing, do the opposite of what they were intended to do or allow you to do something skills already let you do, only with extra penalties. At least some of these have been errated to some extent.
This thread has cropped up before, so I won't repeat the cycle by looking up the specific examples, but you can probably search for it easily enough.
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I'm going to go with Combat Expertise. It's one of the few feats that requires you to have a non combat stat without giving you a reward for putting points into that stat. It eats into your point buy and mucks up your rolled stat distribution.
Mechanically speaking it's a little weak, but not the worst on its own. What REALLY burns by blitzballs is that this disruptive, underwhelming, tax of a feat is the gatekeeper to wntire styles of combat. Other feats are less effective, but it's not like you need to take them just to be able to take the feats that finally allow you to disarm safely.
Bless Paizo for every class and ability that allows you to sidestep this 3E legacy baggage.
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My least favorite is Strike Back. Without this feat, I would probably ask the GM If I could do this, thinking it wouldn't take a combat veteran to smack something in the skull as it leans in to bite me, and this goes double if its skull is twice the size of me. But with this feat, it requires you to be a hardened warrior.
Combat Expertise isn't fun, but at least it has some redeeming qualities, like feats which adequately replace it (Dirty Fighting) and ones which make it better (Stalwart).
Now, now. We shouldn't look at feats that are useless, do things tht other abilities do better, or just plain do nothing.
I want to know what feats automatically make things worse and can't be turned off. Rather than a waste of resources, I want to know which feats actively suck up other resources and bonuses.
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My least favorite is Strike Back. Without this feat, I would probably ask the GM If I could do this, thinking it wouldn't take a combat veteran to smack something in the skull as it leans in to bite me, and this goes double if its skull is twice the size of me. But with this feat, it requires you to be a hardened warrior.
Combat Expertise isn't fun, but at least it has some redeeming qualities, like feats which adequately replace it (Dirty Fighting) and ones which make it better (Stalwart).
I'm pretty sure Strike Back is a feat for the same reason that people with Improveed Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks don't provoke AoOs, they know how to guard themselves when they attack.
That it also works against manufactured reach weapons I think is silly though.
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Any feat that takes away an option that you didn't use to need a feat to do.
There was one feat in a module that did nothing but let you commit suicide easier and make it impossible to resurrect you.
I forget what it was called though. It at least did what I assume (haven't read the module it was from) it was meant to: give the bad guys in the module proof against interrogation mundane and magical. That likely means its better than some of the other feats that make you worse.
You might be thinking of the kineticist suicide bomb option in Occult Adventures.
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It's from Mummy's Mask. :-)
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Feat taxing purposes?
I'm pretty sure Strike Back is a feat for the same reason that people with Improveed Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks don't provoke AoOs...
Given that even 20th level characters only have between 10 and 22 feats (the latter being the human fighter, specifically), and according to the PRD there are some 1,406 OGL Feats (give or take), plus a great deal more that aren't OGL but have had the serial numbers filed off on the d20pfsrd.... there are going to be a whole ton of feats that will almost never be taken. Yes, some of those will be racial or monster feats, and thus not generally applicable for most PCs, but the point stands.
Indeed, when you take those numbers into account (A fighter is able to take about 1.5% of the OGL feats, other classes usually around 0.7%), it makes you wonder why any single combat style requires investing 4-8 feats in to remain competent at as you advance in levels.
One could, with reasonable grounds, argue that around 90-95% of published feats are largely unnecessary obfuscation of the 5-10% that are worth using your tiny, tiny feat budget for.
Edit: Doing a cut and paste from the d20pfsrd... and ignoring monster, achievement etc feats, the number comes in around the 1790 by my quick count. So... a lot.
My least favorite is Strike Back. Without this feat, I would probably ask the GM If I could do this, thinking it wouldn't take a combat veteran to smack something in the skull as it leans in to bite me, and this goes double if its skull is twice the size of me. But with this feat, it requires you to be a hardened warrior.
Combat Expertise isn't fun, but at least it has some redeeming qualities, like feats which adequately replace it (Dirty Fighting) and ones which make it better (Stalwart).
I'm pretty sure Strike Back is a feat for the same reason that people with Improveed Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks don't provoke AoOs, they know how to guard themselves when they attack.
That it also works against manufactured reach weapons I think is silly though.
Strike back working against manufactured reach weapons is part of what gives it any value.
Unlike Improved Unarmed Strike or Spring Attack, Strike Back does not have a "Normal" line defining what you're unable to do without the feat.
Rather, Strike Back is merely a guaranteed way to do something that's otherwise up to GM discretion.
If you don't have strike back, then the GM might, say, allow you fight back against a giant using a slam attack but not if the giant's got a sword or spear (though the GM may allow you to attempt disarm or sunder instead). If you do have strike back, there's no question; you can simply take your readied attack and directly attack a Lunging titan wielding a longspear from 65 away (to illustrate the extreme end of what Strike Back actually lets you do).
Anyways, moral of the story is please check for whether a Feat actually has that "Normal" line, because it actually has to have it to be restricting options.
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There was one feat in a module that did nothing but let you commit suicide easier and make it impossible to resurrect you.
I forget what it was called though. It at least did what I assume (haven't read the module it was from) it was meant to: give the bad guys in the module proof against interrogation mundane and magical. That likely means its better than some of the other feats that make you worse.
I came across the feat you're talking about a few weeks ago and had to read it three or four times to believe it. Even now I'm stunned at how overwhelmingly bad it is at the cost of effectively deleting your character.
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I hate and have always hated Skill Focus.
That said, my answer is Run.
Run is terrible. It's so bad that you all forgot it was even a feat until just now.
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There was one feat in a module that did nothing but let you commit suicide easier and make it impossible to resurrect you.
I forget what it was called though. It at least did what I assume (haven't read the module it was from) it was meant to: give the bad guys in the module proof against interrogation mundane and magical. That likely means its better than some of the other feats that make you worse.
I came across the feat you're talking about a few weeks ago and had to read it three or four times to believe it. Even now I'm stunned at how overwhelmingly bad it is at the cost of effectively deleting your character.
That feat was never intended for PCs. It's meant for NPC underlings of an cult leader. It's so they can act as a suicide bomb so they cannot be forced to talk under magical duress, even after death.
It's a pretty good deal for your minions to take it if you can talk them into it.
There was one feat in a module that did nothing but let you commit suicide easier and make it impossible to resurrect you.
I forget what it was called though. It at least did what I assume (haven't read the module it was from) it was meant to: give the bad guys in the module proof against interrogation mundane and magical. That likely means its better than some of the other feats that make you worse.
I came across the feat you're talking about a few weeks ago and had to read it three or four times to believe it. Even now I'm stunned at how overwhelmingly bad it is at the cost of effectively deleting your character.
Hey, I'll have you know that as a reincarnated druid player, that feat fits perfectly with my paranoid playstyle!
I hate and have always hated Skill Focus.
That said, my answer is Run.
Run is terrible. It's so bad that you all forgot it was even a feat until just now.
Run is a regular feat I take on certain characters.
Admittedly, because I get it for free as an elf (same trait which grants a bonus to initiative), but I do take the feat and write it on the character sheet.
You can take the run action while flying. If you have magical flight, you can run all day and cover ground a lot faster.
I have yet to test it, but if Combat Expertise scaled like Power Attack, would people be more likely to use it? That's +12 Dodge Bonus to AC at 20th for a full BAB class.
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It's a trait rather than a feat, but Researching the Blot's only effect is to make it harder for you to identify magic items.
That trait actually goes all the way back to D&D 3.5 -- and in that system, it actually did something useful, as it was a DC 25 Spellcraft check to identify a potion and that skill could not be used at all to identify a magic item on its own.
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My least favorite is Strike Back. Without this feat, I would probably ask the GM If I could do this, thinking it wouldn't take a combat veteran to smack something in the skull as it leans in to bite me, and this goes double if its skull is twice the size of me. But with this feat, it requires you to be a hardened warrior.
Combat Expertise isn't fun, but at least it has some redeeming qualities, like feats which adequately replace it (Dirty Fighting) and ones which make it better (Stalwart).
I'm pretty sure Strike Back is a feat for the same reason that people with Improveed Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks don't provoke AoOs, they know how to guard themselves when they attack.
That it also works against manufactured reach weapons I think is silly though.
Strike back working against manufactured reach weapons is part of what gives it any value.
Unlike Improved Unarmed Strike or Spring Attack, Strike Back does not have a "Normal" line defining what you're unable to do without the feat.
Rather, Strike Back is merely a guaranteed way to do something that's otherwise up to GM discretion.
If you don't have strike back, then the GM might, say, allow you fight back against a giant using a slam attack but not if the giant's got a sword or spear (though the GM may allow you to attempt disarm or sunder instead). If you do have strike back, there's no question; you can simply take your readied attack and directly attack a Lunging titan wielding a longspear from 65 away (to illustrate the extreme end of what Strike Back actually lets you do).
Anyways, moral of the story is please check for whether a Feat actually has that "Normal" line, because it actually has to have it to be restricting options.
That is especially silly.
How about Caustic Slur?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general
Oh, look I have the power to give all of my enemies Power Attack and upgrade it if they already have it.
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How about Caustic Slur?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general
Oh, look I have the power to give all of my enemies Power Attack and upgrade it if they already have it.
Linkified!
Huh.
That's a goofy one, but if you have a great AC, being able to force your enemies to power attack you could completely screw their chances of actually hurting you.
It's a very niche feat, but it actually works for a tanky gnome ranger.
Now, a tanky gnome ranger is an odd character to begin with, so definitely a feat with limited application.
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How about Caustic Slur?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general
Oh, look I have the power to give all of my enemies Power Attack and upgrade it if they already have it.
Linkified!
Huh.
That's a goofy one, but if you have a great AC, being able to force your enemies to power attack you could completely screw their chances of actually hurting you.
It's a very niche feat, but it actually works for a tanky gnome ranger.
Now, a tanky gnome ranger is an odd character to begin with, so definitely a feat with limited application.
Unfortunately the Feat doesn't force them to attack you, it just gives them Power Attack if they choose to do so.
I guess I didn't phrase with enough particularity then - it forces enemies to use Power Attack if they attack you.
Again, if you have great AC, that can completely hose their chances of actually hurting you.
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Hey, I'll have you know that as a reincarnated druid player, that feat fits perfectly with my paranoid playstyle!There was one feat in a module that did nothing but let you commit suicide easier and make it impossible to resurrect you.
I forget what it was called though. It at least did what I assume (haven't read the module it was from) it was meant to: give the bad guys in the module proof against interrogation mundane and magical. That likely means its better than some of the other feats that make you worse.
I came across the feat you're talking about a few weeks ago and had to read it three or four times to believe it. Even now I'm stunned at how overwhelmingly bad it is at the cost of effectively deleting your character.
That actually does seem relevant. If you are facing someone you can't kill, the sealing them in a jail cell is the next best thing. Getting put into a hannibal lecter suit and having a feeding tube shoved down your throat (which also makes it hard to bite your tongue off) is the closest thing to death that can happen to you if your enemies lack the right tools to disable your rebirth or find you during the cool off period.
A nice self kill option solves that problem.
But it is rather obviously an NPC feat, what with the prereq. that needs you to be an insane fanatic of some evil cult. Not that you can't make those characters, but it can be hard to work them even into an evil campaign since they seem like the 'stay at home' type of cult that doesn't get much spread (unlike Asomodeans, who can go anywhere they can find profit, or random demon worshippers, who GO WHERE THEY WANT YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO MOM~!). NPC feats and player feats have VERY different priorities. Enemies are expendable- so permanently deleting the character is fine as long as it can deny the players a benefit (in this case- preventing them from using Speak with Dead to ruin a mystery campaign). So the feat actually works beautifully.
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Kick Up is one of those feats that I have a hard time imagine coming up often enough to be worth a feat. It's barely a stunt.
Well, it's not an incredibly versatile feat, but I did use it to free up a hand on a sword and pistol NPC so that he could reload his pistol. Worked not too bad.
I might sound like a broken record, but... Vital Strike
Look, do you want to avoid any kind of confusion and rule tweaking?
Just make it a FULL-ROUND ACTION!
The fact that it's "When you use the attack action" confuses every single person that plays the game. Why? Because you CANNOT use the feat WHEN you use the attack action.
Spring Attack? Nope
Regular Charge? Nope
Wind/Lightning Stance? Nope
Mounted Charge? Nope
Manyshot? Nope
NOTHING that USES the attack action is eligible to a Vital Strike.
"As a full-round action, you focus yourself to deliver a single, yet powerful strike. You can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total."
DONE! Screw movement, screw other attack actions that are standard or full-round, screw everything else...
It takes 6 seconds to smack a target for double, triple or quad damage.
I might sound like a broken record, but... Vital Strike
Look, do you want to avoid any kind of confusion and rule tweaking?
Just make it a FULL-ROUND ACTION!
The fact that it's "When you use the attack action" confuses every single person that plays the game. Why? Because you CANNOT use the feat WHEN you use the attack action.
Spring Attack? Nope
Regular Charge? Nope
Wind/Lightning Stance? Nope
Mounted Charge? Nope
Manyshot? NopeNOTHING that USES the attack action is eligible to a Vital Strike.
"As a full-round action, you focus yourself to deliver a single, yet powerful strike. You can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total."
DONE! Screw movement, screw other attack actions that are standard or full-round, screw everything else...
It takes 6 seconds to smack a target for double, triple or quad damage.
Why make it weaker? As is you just do everything you said as a standard, not a full round.
EDIT: What I mean is, the "attack action" is defined as the standard-action single attack. So you do that, couple it with VS, and wham, extra damage dice.
Admittedly it's not very good unless you're already using a greatsword + stacking several 1/hit bonuses on top like channel smite, or using it as a druid wildshaped into a dire t rex or something.
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But I thought that the main purpose of Vital Strike was to allow you to take a move action and then strike an opponent for more than a single standard attack action's worth of damage. Making Vital Strike into a full round action would defeat the point.
But I thought that the main purpose of Vital Strike was to allow you to take a move action and then strike an opponent for more than a single standard attack action's worth of damage. Making Vital Strike into a full round action would defeat the point.
Here's the catch: it doesn't work when you move. According to MANY FAQs, Vital Strike doesn't work if used "as a standard action"; you technically cannot replace an attack that requires a standard action by Vital Strike. That's the main problem.
BTW, by making it a full-round action, I basically made the feat into a way to bypass DR and Hardness.
But I thought that the main purpose of Vital Strike was to allow you to take a move action and then strike an opponent for more than a single standard attack action's worth of damage. Making Vital Strike into a full round action would defeat the point.Here's the catch: it doesn't work when you move. According to MANY FAQs, Vital Strike doesn't work if used "as a standard action"; you technically cannot replace an attack that requires a standard action by Vital Strike. That's the main problem.
I really have no idea where you are coming up with that one. I do not recall seeing any FAQ that bars you from using Vital Strike for a plain vanilla standard action attack.
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But I thought that the main purpose of Vital Strike was to allow you to take a move action and then strike an opponent for more than a single standard attack action's worth of damage. Making Vital Strike into a full round action would defeat the point.Here's the catch: it doesn't work when you move. According to MANY FAQs, Vital Strike doesn't work if used "as a standard action"; you technically cannot replace an attack that requires a standard action by Vital Strike. That's the main problem.I really have no idea where you are coming up with that one. I do not recall seeing any FAQ that bars you from using Vital Strike for a plain vanilla standard action attack.
Me neither...
I'ze confused...
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I really have no idea where you are coming up with that one. I do not recall seeing any FAQ that bars you from using Vital Strike for a plain vanilla standard action attack.But I thought that the main purpose of Vital Strike was to allow you to take a move action and then strike an opponent for more than a single standard attack action's worth of damage. Making Vital Strike into a full round action would defeat the point.Here's the catch: it doesn't work when you move. According to MANY FAQs, Vital Strike doesn't work if used "as a standard action"; you technically cannot replace an attack that requires a standard action by Vital Strike. That's the main problem.
Yeah, I would be shocked if this were true.
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But I thought that the main purpose of Vital Strike was to allow you to take a move action and then strike an opponent for more than a single standard attack action's worth of damage. Making Vital Strike into a full round action would defeat the point.Here's the catch: it doesn't work when you move. According to MANY FAQs, Vital Strike doesn't work if used "as a standard action"; you technically cannot replace an attack that requires a standard action by Vital Strike. That's the main problem.
BTW, by making it a full-round action, I basically made the feat into a way to bypass DR and Hardness.
I think you are confusing standard action attacks with all the other actions that are themselves standard actions and include attacks.
No, you cannot Vital Strike Cleave. Cleave is a special standard action, not the Attack action. You can Vital Srike when you take the standard action Attack.
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Contributor
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No, you cannot Vital Strike Cleave. Cleave is a special standard action, not the Attack action. You can Vital Srike when you take the standard action Attack.
Speaking of deeply questionable feats...
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No, you cannot Vital Strike Cleave. Cleave is a special standard action, not the Attack action. You can Vital Srike when you take the standard action Attack.Speaking of deeply questionable feats...
Lol
That feels like something you'd put into a magic weapon, kinda an Alt-Vicous.
You get Vital Strike for free! But you do the damage to yourself as well!
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I have a special hate spot in my heart for Antagonize...a tabletop game with a human GM doesn't need aggro mechanics. Especially one that uses a trivial skill check to force kindly old grandmothers and lifelong pacifists to run screaming towards an obvious threat.
But I thought that the main purpose of Vital Strike was to allow you to take a move action and then strike an opponent for more than a single standard attack action's worth of damage. Making Vital Strike into a full round action would defeat the point.Here's the catch: it doesn't work when you move. According to MANY FAQs, Vital Strike doesn't work if used "as a standard action"; you technically cannot replace an attack that requires a standard action by Vital Strike. That's the main problem.
BTW, by making it a full-round action, I basically made the feat into a way to bypass DR and Hardness.
Assuming Vital Strike actually lets you move then Vital Strike (which is how my tables use it) Then I'd argue it is one of the best feats in the game for a martial character (or a mage who doesn't do mage things).
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But I thought that the main purpose of Vital Strike was to allow you to take a move action and then strike an opponent for more than a single standard attack action's worth of damage. Making Vital Strike into a full round action would defeat the point.Here's the catch: it doesn't work when you move. According to MANY FAQs, Vital Strike doesn't work if used "as a standard action"; you technically cannot replace an attack that requires a standard action by Vital Strike. That's the main problem.
BTW, by making it a full-round action, I basically made the feat into a way to bypass DR and Hardness.
This is not correct. Vital Strike works when you make an attack using the attack action, which is a standard action. You absolutely can combine it with a move, and you absolutely can combine it with any other action that alters a standard attack action, such as Greater Weapon of the Chosen.
What you cannot do is combine it an action that is not a standard attack action, such as cleave, spring attack, or a charge.
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I hate the Empathy feat for Androids. You lose at least as much as you gain for the price of a feat. It really should have just been a free racial option.