Playing Chaotic Evil NPCs

In a Savage Tide side trek my PCs have found themselves (or will next week) with a conflict between undead and Bullywugs blocking their path to their goal. The undead include nasty Mohrgs, while the Bullywugs are 7th - 9th level Fighters and Clerics of Dagon. In preparation for the tasks in their future, I want to give the players some training in "working with the lesser of two evils".

The main premise - a group of Bullywugs have been dominated by the big Bad, and the undead summoned by him. I want them to emerge from their Secure Shelter and stumble upon a Bullywug fighting against a few Mohrgs. Hopefully they won't fireball the lot, I'll throw them some clues to intrigue them about the BW, and describe the undead in extra icky detail. With a bit of luck, they'll kill the undead and interrogate the Bullywug, who has thrown off his domination. The idea is that they travel to the BW village, nervously but safely, and get their help to fight the big bad necromancer type.

The thing is... how to portray a CE Bullywug sympathetically in the first place? Let alone a whole tribe!

Any ideas?

In a Savage Tide side trek my PCs have found themselves (or will next week) with a conflict between undead and Bullywugs blocking their path to their goal. The undead include nasty Mohrgs, while the Bullywugs are 7th - 9th level Fighters and Clerics of Dagon. In preparation for the tasks in their future, I want to give the players some training in "working with the lesser of two evils".

The main premise - a group of Bullywugs have been dominated by the big Bad, and the undead summoned by him. I want them to emerge from their Secure Shelter and stumble upon a Bullywug fighting against a few Mohrgs. Hopefully they won't fireball the lot, I'll throw them some clues to intrigue them about the BW, and describe the undead in extra icky detail. With a bit of luck, they'll kill the undead and interrogate the Bullywug, who has thrown off his domination. The idea is that they travel to the BW village, nervously but safely, and get their help to fight the big bad necromancer type.

The thing is... how to portray a CE Bullywug sympathetically in the first place? Let alone a whole tribe!

Any ideas?

You could always have the particular Bullywug that they see have crazy high ranks in bluff and Undetectable Alignment on him. I'm not sure what domains that god has, and I'm too lazy to look them up, but UA should be in the cleric's list of spells, and certain domains will give 'em bluff, right? "Um, I'm a good Bullywug, we're all a seperatist village that formed years ago trying to throw off the chains of our people's ways. Yeah, that's the ticket." You COULD make that particular one a bard, toss in some Glibness for nigh-undetectable bluff, make him seem truly sincere.

As for the town...that's harder.

My suggestion, make them 'human.'

What I mean by that, is show their good qualities, show that they aren't just monsters, but that they're living, breathing creatures with families they love and want to protect, with virtues they uphold.

Sure they're a%$*~*$s that only care about themselves, but in my experience there VERY RARELY is anybody (except evil outsiders, and there are even some exceptions among them, though such cases are extremely rare) PURE EVIL *cues the Doctor Evil music* but rather, people who are classified as evil have evil traits (destructive, malicious, hateful, etc etc), but also have good one's in lesser quantities.

It is said that times of adversity draws out the best in us. Show those adventurers the best in the Bullywugs, show them the 'humanity' underneath their generally evil natures.

The chaotic part is easy enough to portray sympathetically. Any law that is passed curtails some freedom, so just emphasize that they want to live without rules and regulations.

As for the evil part, I think the key is to focus on the fact that they live in a harsh environment that has trained them to make the harsh choices. Something along these lines:

"To you humans who have grown soft living in your ordered and safe cities, our ways may seem cruel. We do not coddle the weak and useless amongst us. If a member of the tribe cannot fend for itself, it not only invites attack upon itself, but upon all of us. Should we allow the whole tribe to fall to our enemies while we tend to the sick and the weak? Furthermore, these barren lands do not provide the bounty that your rich fields offer. There is not enough for all to prosper. If we do not prey upon those who are weaker than ourselves, our own tribe will not survive. The weakness of others is an opportunity to be exploited. To think otherwise is to perish."

Obviously, there are other ways to portray evil, but this at least seems like you could see where they were coming from.

I knew this would help! Thanks for the replies, it's getting them to look past the CE letters that will swing this. Lots of reasonable, understandable justification and patient explanation will get them every time.

I mean, they like the Olman... though they haven't seen a sacrifice yet!

What would life be like in a bullywug village? What would their outlook be? Can you think of a human equivalent?

Having the bullywug warriors attempting to hold off the mohrg, while females huddle behind him clutching baskets of eggs, with a few other warriors already fallen, could 'set the scene' to make the primary bullywug fighters appear suitable 'heroic' regardless of their alignment (or the alignments of those they are protecting).

Yeah, they might be evil dudes, but they are evil dudes attempting to hold the line against undead monsters and buy time for their 'women and children' to get to safety...

Have the bullywug they encounter be carrying a woven basket full of brackish slime. When the PCs demand to see what is inside, the Bullywug exposes the tadpole-stage of their life-cycle, effectively babies.

If the Bullywug is attacked anyway, have it croak "I will see you again in death, dryskins! The Deathless ones shall claim your people as they now mine!"

Alternatively, have the PCs encounter a group of Bullywugs fleeing a pack of fast-zombies, and one Bullywug, the only real combat challenge to the PCs, orders the others to flee, picks up his morning-star and desperately bashes away at the Zombies, calling upon Gozreh to protect him. Admittedly the Bullywugs might worship Gozreh in a corrupted 'greatest predator of them all' fashion, but it's still some sort of common ground with the PCs.

PCs that, as soon as they start swinging at anything they encounter, will generally fail these sort of encounters hard. PCs that are less blood-crazed and are prone to thinking about their actions a few steps ahead could notice the Bullywug(s) are badly injured, possibly bearing their critically injured/irreplaceable tribe-mates behind them on crude travois, so on and so forth, really hammer home that these 'Frog Men' are in no position to offer any challenge to the PCs. Furthermore, a Cleric of Dagon is quite likely to be even more monstrous than the Bullywugs to the PC's eyes, and one of his favoured servants, some sort of chimeric fusion of man, fish and serpent, could prove to be the 'bigger threat' that the trigger-happy PCs will be happy to focus on while the Bullywugs aid them. If that doesn't make the PCs go ".... okay. Truce, for now." then I'm sorry, nothing is going to get them to put down the pwn-sticks and pick up the peace-pipes.

Making CE creatures is easy. Here are a number of alignment-neutral (not Neutral) acts that can garner sympathy:

-caring for children.

-defending their home bravely.

-being cheated, robbed, or murdered for no reason.

-having a rich culture.

-being beautiful.

-showing respect for the PCs.

Now, bullywugs can do all except "be beautiful." Go to town.

I love this place - absolute geniusseses :-)

Escaping Bullywug warrior threw off his Domination while carrying out a command to bring a clutch of eggs to the necromancer. Something rebelled and he was himself again - clearheaded for the first time in weeks. Grabbing the basket of eggs he escaped the tunnels under the graveyard and headed for the village... disturbing a few undead on the way.

Cue arrival of PCs.

Brilliant! Thanks guys! Feel free to riff some more on the whole subject, the more ideas the better. Have to get them used to this before they go to all sorts of spoiler places!

When I had my players run into human slavers (NE) vs gnoll raiders (CE) trying to protect their pups, the party killed both the humans and the gnolls and sold the pups.

So yeah...

Just when I was getting optimistic :-)

My noble-yet-vicious in a temporarily-non-threatening way Bullywug needs a name :-)

I'm thinking it should have 2 Ds in it. ;-D

How about Kermit ? xD They wouldnt dare hurt Kermit.. would they ?

How about Kermit ? xD They wouldnt dare hurt Kermit.. would they ?

Kermit? How can he have a fantasy name without an x, z or apostrophe? ;-)

Remco Sommeling wrote:

How about Kermit ? xD They wouldnt dare hurt Kermit.. would they ?

Kermit? How can he have a fantasy name without an x, z or apostrophe? ;-)

Ker'mit, then. :)

Kerh'Met (Try pronouncing 'Kermit' as two 'coughing' sounds and you have a tribal sounding name with an insider joke to it.)

Well, that was unexpected!

The party stumbled across the Bullywug defending his basket of eggs from a Mohrg and slew the Mohrg. The BW said "Thanks" and the party surrounded him.

"Drop your weapon!"
"Too slow, scumbag!" HACK!

And that was the end of him. And the character who never gave him a chance to talk was... Lawful Good!

Okay, he'd been captured and tortured by Bullywugs back in Lavinia's mansion, and lost a few toes IIRC. And okay, the previous (Dominated) Bullywugs they'd fought not a few hours before were brutal and hostile... but still...

(We were running it in rounds, and when I said that the BW lowered his weapon my(very tactical) players said "Outside his turn? Not allowed!" and stuff of that persuasion. Then the Fighters turn came and he attacked.)

I'm still inclined to think he crossed a line here.

Well, that was unexpected!

The party stumbled across the Bullywug defending his basket of eggs from a Mohrg and slew the Mohrg. The BW said "Thanks" and the party surrounded him.

"Drop your weapon!"
"Too slow, scumbag!" HACK!

And that was the end of him. And the character who never gave him a chance to talk was... Lawful Good!

Okay, he'd been captured and tortured by Bullywugs back in Lavinia's mansion, and lost a few toes IIRC. And okay, the previous (Dominated) Bullywugs they'd fought not a few hours before were brutal and hostile... but still...

(We were running it in rounds, and when I said that the BW lowered his weapon my(very tactical) players said "Outside his turn? Not allowed!" and stuff of that persuasion. Then the Fighters turn came and he attacked.)

I'm still inclined to think he crossed a line here.

It was outside of his alignment, the fact that he is tortured by other bullywugs might be an issue, and it might be a credible response, but all the same it is outside of his alignment, though I am not saying it is explicitly bad roleplaying, though I am inclined to think he took the easy route.

(having a PC tortured and then convince them that the BW is the lesser of two evils might not have been the best plan)

Impress upon them that the bullywug was defending the eggs, at least making them realize they aren't 'just' evil creatures.
Also don't feel bad making some encounters harder for them than they would have been had they treated the bullywug better.

I'd totally forgotten he'd been tortured - it was at 2nd level (now 12th) and two years ago!

They are stuck without a lot of hints and info now though. I'm disappointed as without that story they're just crawling through a dungeon. If they had a cleric they could speak with dead, but they don't.

Maybe leave a few scrolls lying around for the rogue...

Well, that was unexpected!

The party stumbled across the Bullywug defending his basket of eggs from a Mohrg and slew the Mohrg. The BW said "Thanks" and the party surrounded him.

"Drop your weapon!"
"Too slow, scumbag!" HACK!

And that was the end of him. And the character who never gave him a chance to talk was... Lawful Good!

Okay, he'd been captured and tortured by Bullywugs back in Lavinia's mansion, and lost a few toes IIRC. And okay, the previous (Dominated) Bullywugs they'd fought not a few hours before were brutal and hostile... but still...

(We were running it in rounds, and when I said that the BW lowered his weapon my(very tactical) players said "Outside his turn? Not allowed!" and stuff of that persuasion. Then the Fighters turn came and he attacked.)

I'm still inclined to think he crossed a line here.

Telling someone to lower their weapon and then slaying them before they can do so is just plain evil. Tactical bullcrap or not. You're the DM, remind them that you tell THEM what is and isn't allowed, not the other way around.

I'd tell that PC "Guess what, you're lawful neutral now."

Telling someone to lower their weapon and then slaying them before they can do so is just plain evil. Tactical bullcrap or not. You're the DM, remind them that you tell THEM what is and isn't allowed, not the other way around.

I'd tell that PC "Guess what, you're lawful neutral now."

I would have to agree with this man here. If this was a conscious decision to kill a nearly helpless enemy that would at the very least help bump him away from evil. Maybe not in a single step but another tripup like that and he gets the alignment penalty box.

Hope he's not a pally :(

Hope he's not a pally :(

Hopefully he IS. Maybe it'll teach him to not pick a class with an alignment restriction and play it with willful ignorance like he was a NE rogue.

He's a light-armoured two-weapon fighter. He was NG for a long time but recently went lawful to take monk levels. I did remind him that he was lawful good but he stuck to his vengeance. After the first blow the BW was shocked and wobbly. He use a second attack to kill it.

He's a light-armoured two-weapon fighter. He was NG for a long time but recently went lawful to take monk levels. I did remind him that he was lawful good but he stuck to his vengeance. After the first blow the BW was shocked and wobbly. He use a second attack to kill it.

So he already under went a single column shift in alignment, and how he is hinging on the OTHER axis? So from NG to LG, and now towards LN? Oh yea, he would have something nasty coming his way pretty soon if I were you.