|
Okay... Since you didn't murder the cook I'm okay now. Sorry. For a moment I felt a moment of serious disconnect.
Hmm
Hey, can we revisit the whole murder hobo conversation?
Bret tells me that he interpreted the above statement with, "You guys didn't murder the cook, so I'm all happy now." If that's the case, then I think I've seriously understated my distress here.
What I meant by the above statement was that I decided to stick around instead of quitting the group. Because the murder of people in their sickbeds really almost pushed me to that.
It freaked me out so bad that I didn't post last night, and didn't post most of this morning.
It freaked me out.
I understand the cold logic... but I'm wondering if I'm out of synch with this group not only timewise, but philosophically. I'm only holding on here because the cook wasn't murdered, and because Crummock has promised a less murder hobo future.
But I'm still a little freaked.
Hmm
I am sorry if we have made you uncomfortable :-/
FWIW, no-one in this building has been deliberately killed (which would be a CdG), as of yet; they have mostly just been beaten into unconsciousness (well, unless they all die at 0hp, for some reason).
That said, we *were* hired to rescue the noble (if possible), and deal with the bandit problem (which could be reasonably interpreted as killing them).
We could stabilise the bandits, then force march them back to town, but they will just be hanged (or worse) anyway for their crimes; wouldn't it be kinder to simply let them die peacefully here and now, and give them a proper burial?
I agree, from a modern 21st Century perspective, this is quite cold, but Golarion is more medieval Europe, and at that time, attitudes to crime were quite different - in the Holy Roman Empire, for example, it was not uncommon for highwaymen to be tortured until they confessed, then hanged or broken on the wheel (depending on the severity of their crimes), and their bodies then displayed in gibbets.
Seems we view the game world very differently.
Golarion is not medieval Europe.
Torture is evil in Golarion, and will have effects on people who perform it. Things like Heavenly Fire harming you instead of curing you. Or Protection from Evil interfering with your aim. More powerful people have to worry about glowing under Detect Evil. The paladin codes do not read like a medieval knight's codes -- especially not Shelyn's.
Golarion also has weirdly mixed technologies. You've got people using firearms from Arkenstar in the same battles as people using shortswords. The armor is also all over the place in terms of when earth developed technology. On top of that, you have Numerian technology.
Golarion most certainly is not medieval Europe.
So no, I don't agree that it is a mercy killing them rather than taking them back to town. We may be forced to, but it prevents them from having any chance at redemption.
True, but we are also using a campaign world where there are Empyreal Lords that glorify execution, self-harm, and prostitution (according to their portfolios)...
For the record, I am *NOT* advocating torture (in fact, in an earlier post in this discussion thread, I noted that I was expressly against it).
The town also doesn't have a jail - what else will they do with bandits, except execute them?
(Out of curiosity, are you also suggesting we give the Necromancer a chance at 'redemption'?)
(Out of curiosity, are you also suggesting we give the Necromancer a chance at 'redemption'?)
No, not with this character.
I do have characters that might, but not this one. I also have some that wouldn't care.
This character wants to believe some of the bandits could be redeemed, but evidence suggests their leader is responsible for much of the problem. Mr. Whiskers did not say "Take him alive!" after dazing the leader.
One of them is dead, but that was due to Einar dumping his full bite, claw, claw routine on that guy.
I'll say that the module has some atrocities for you to witness later, but again, don't all APs?
If you guys got to glassworks in ROTR, you already saw one.
If you want my take on the town, if the party manages to convince the town that the bandits in question have turned over a new leaf, then the town will set them working for a fixed period as penance, then they will be free to go. Possibly the militia could be a good fit for their skills, because there is a growing threat from border wood.
Otherwise, they will hang, yes.
If the necromancer surrenders, would you accept it?
Also, about bandits:
Taldor is not a harsh land. Heck, a commoner can take 10 for survival and live off the land.Its not like some frozen wastes or something. I've checked the vicinity, no evil overlords, no crime lords nearby etc, so it is very unlikely that people would be forced to banditry.
And Heldren is the kind of village that if you went in there hungry, Menander and Kale would feed you for as long as you wanted to be fed, no charge. Kale might hand you a broomstick and a dishcloth, telling you to go make yourself useful, if you lazed around too long, though.
Basically, since the module did not state how the bandits were there, but just states they are there(even before winter came), so I filled in the background based on the locality.
Anyone, if they chose, could take 10 for survival, and live off the land. Or farm their own land, since most of this place is unclaimed, and no one gives a d@mn.
And since food is plentiful, the reason why they turned to banditry, is because they willingly chose to prey off others, finding it easy cash. Their conversations also reflect as such.
Now if the place was close to Riddleport, where there are local crime lords and all that, then yes, the conversations would likely be very different. You might have some people press ganged into it, etc.
If the necromancer surrenders, would you accept it?
Don't have time to respond to anything else -- game is starting.
Please, do NOT throw a moral quandary into a group that is still trying to figure out dynamics that the whole group will accept.
We as players and characters are still trying to find something that works.
To be clear: I am very much on board with *not* being explicit murder-hobos all of the time (although depending on the IC actions of NPCs, there will undoubtedly be situations where that will be necessary).
As previously mentioned, I have not explicitly killed any of the bandits inside the building, but I also have not gone out of my way to incapacitate them in a non-lethal fashion; they are bandits, after all, so if they happen to die in melee, I will not lose sleep over it, but I also wouldn't compromise my own safety to ensure their survival.
Yes, Crummock is of the opinion that killing them now is probably the more merciful option, but if someone gives him a well-reasoned argument / impassioned plea in character as to why they should be spared, he would be open to it.
Also, I can always suspend the game in a time bubble as long as is necessary for you all to debate ethics.
There will be more choices that need to be made in the future(not so much left in this book, more in the next).
But I may not be the best judge of this anyway.
Honestly(I may not have all THAT much GMing experience),I've never run into this problem before.
I can give you assurance as a GM, that a spared NPC will never backstab/betray you, unless the module states they will attempt to do so. If they do, I will roll sense motive checks in secret to give you a chance to catch their hidden intent, and inform you of the results(if successful).
Would you like me to treat any sense motive checks done to be automatically shared with the party, like knowledge checks?
I'm not angry or accusatory. I even think, logically speaking, that Crummock may be acting in the group's best interests here. I just need to know that we're not always going to go this dark, this fast.
I just am worried that there may be a mismatch in player styles. Does this make sense?
Hmm
I am saddened that we may have done anything to lessen your experience, and I hope we can work it out so as to continue playing with all of us enjoying the game and our characters.
I have not posted any comments due to a couple of reasons. The first reason is my own inexperience. While I've played a couple of years here on line I am reasonably inexperienced compared to the others at the table. The second reason is my character Einar is written up as the "Darkest" Character at the table and I am still working through what that means.
|
Hey Gang --
I didn't mean to be such a bummer.... I really do enjoy the roleplay. I'm willing to keep going if you are. I don't mind characters with dark backgrounds. Who knows maybe Cadence can put you on a redemption arc.
If we can redeem some (I won't ask for the necromancer) I would like that.
I hope you're all not mad at me.
Hmm
Not at all! Especially in PbP (where we can't rely on tone or body language), unless you speak up and say that something is making you uncomfortable, we will never know...
Don't think anyone is.
But if we really bring 21st Century law into it(full lawful mode):
You need 2 elements to prove a crime – Actus Reus (Prohibited Act), and Mens Rea (Culpable Blameworthy state of mind)
Actus Reus for murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being under the Queens peace.
Mens Rea for murder is intention to kill, or if not kill, do grevious bodily harm.
Chances are, they did themselves commit murder(fulfilling the Actus Reus – Prohibited Act element) of the caravan guards. Did they have the culpable blameworthy state of mind? (Their admission – it was easy pickings, easier then grubbing dirt).
Even if they did not, there is:
S8 of Accessories and Abettors Act 1861 stating:
Whosoever shall aid, abet, counsel, procure the commission of an indictable offence shall be punished as a principle offender.
Which would make them liable, nonetheless, with them as accessories, Rokhar as principle.
Defence of Duress –
[R v Hasan] states that if a person willingly put himself into a position that he might be subjected to duress, the defence cannot stand.
Duress is also not a defence for murder [ R v Gotts].
In UK, due to the HRA 1998, capital punishment was abolished. But in many other countries, the punishment for murder is death. Robert, I think you know what my night class is, now :P
Never got to surrender...dawww!
Time for bed.
Mr. Whiskers would make polite talk, but we as a group would need to throughly search the lodge and take care of whatever is in the cellar. Make sure someone asks her about that as well.
Escorting her back to Heldren seems logical at this point. Doesn't do any good to rescue someone if they don't make it back to safety afterwards. Only thing that would change that is if she thinks we don't have time because of some invasion.
Travelling back would take till 11 pm, if you didnt stop for any meal.
Feel free to talk to any NPC in the house, decide what you want to do with remaining bandits, but there's again a time bubble in place until night.
In all honesty I didn't want you guys opening chests and stuff yesterday before BBEG fight because I wanted to reserve a bargaining chip, that after he surrendered he would part with some of his loot to convince you of his goodwill ;)
Loot Sheet has been updated.
Let me know if there is anything anyone wants to claim, before we head back to town and liquidate it.
Also, starting tomorrow, I will be on the road for 24-36 hours or so, so my ability to post may be next to non-existent.
Crummock is in favor of resting the night, then heading back to town first thing in the morning, to deliver the noblewoman, and re-equip.
Cadence will probably have quite some things to say to that little fairy. Or at least once she's done...then go ahead.
It's too big for Mr Whiskers, and I am not proficient, so it is down to either you or Cadence :-)
Zzzzz...back in 7h.
The sounds of battle have attracted unwanted attention. An icy creature appearing humanoid from from the waist up, but its body a snake-like, slithering tail, comes out of the water.
Good luck! When will you know the results?
I'll tell you you've more or less exhausted whatever info you can fish out of Vixx. If you're done I can just move up Crummocks action of finishing him off. Or we could continue trading insults and death threats =)
Also, what do you guys want to do with the remaining bandits? Its cold out there, there are limited numbers of blankets. Anyone unprotected will take 1d6 non lethal cold damage on a failed fort save, every hour. Its 7.5 hours back to Heldren...
So, how many bandits?
If we can't come up with a better solution without endangering Lady Argentaea or Ten Penny, I would say we use the smelling salts to bring them conscious and question them. Decide at that point if any of them are redeemable, asking the lady and Ten Penny for their insights.
4 sick ones stablized on their own, of the 5 that fought you in the great hall, one is dead, one is tied up, the rest are unconscious but stable.
8 bandits you want to transport total, if you want to bring them all. Ten Penny and Lady Argentea do NOT have any cold weather outfits.
They may be too large, but I assume some of the dead have cold weather outfits. If not, guess Crummock will save the ladies day with Endure Elements.
Actually, none of them do....so that's going to be an interesting puzzle for the party. Crummock is also afk. So he probably won't be responding. Note that none of you stated you wanted to CDG the necromancer, I could roll all his stabilization checks, I suppose...
Also Crummock may object to using his endure elements on the bandits. I think he only has 5 first level slots too. Lady Argentea, Ten Penny, not a problem though.
I thought he died. Having already proven incapable of doing so, I'll allow one of the others to have CdGed Zohkar.
Also Crummock may object to using his endure elements on the bandits. I think he only has 5 first level slots too. Lady Argentea, Ten Penny, not a problem though.
Guess they will have to impress us then. Otherwise, probably give them a choice of clean kill now or attempting the walk back for a chance to plead for community service.
They are part of the problem that made it so cold.
He didn't need your help, he bled to death.
Feel free to start interrogations, Ill be out for lunch and will respond if I can.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
SURPRISE DOT FROM A LION, SUCKAS~!
>:D