I'm starting a game in which a player wants to do psionics. Looking at most of the psi classes, they will need serious overhaul to fit into the pf class model. I got to looking more closely at the stuff in C.Psi, since mods I make there won't likely be contradicted by new releases (not possible to update by OGL and all that).
What I found was that the Ardent and Divine Mind classes are really just a single idea split into two classes. Further, both of these classes were criticized heavily for being quite weak, though if they were merged they would have enough abilities to actually look very much like a pathfinder base class.
Basically, just shove the two together so that, over the course of 20 levels, they get all the class features of both. Rebalance it so that the abilities are more evenly spread out, but otherwise take them pretty much as is.
What do people think of this? Is it within the scope of the current system limits? Is it overwhelmingly good (mantles make it very nice as a party buffer)? Or is it still made of suck (its powers list, while ok, is still quite limited in multiple ways: number of powers known, spell list, primary mantles, etc)?
I personally think it balances fairly well, and comes out looking very much like a Druid. What it sacrifices in personal power by comparison to the Druid, it makes up in party utility; any extra power due to party utility is somewhat limited by lower spell access than the Druid.
But what do other people think?
I think that is the best solution to the problem. They essentially are the same class anyway, like you said, so unless you take the Divine Mind and make it more like a paladin, with a fighter BAB progression and other goodies, and take the Ardent and just give it a complete overhaul the best solution is to combine to two to make one decent class. It would have good Fort and Will saves, poor Ref, 2+Int mod Skill points, combine the number of mantles that they both get, give it the PP progression of the Ardent, and the ability to use the Auras as per the Divine mind and call it a day.
Basically, just shove the two together so that, over the course of 20 levels, they get all the class features of both. Rebalance it so that the abilities are more evenly spread out, but otherwise take them pretty much as is.
What do people think of this?
I do the same thing. They get the Ardent power progression and mantle selection, and all of the Divine Mind aura abilities. I don't give them Divine Grace.
I also strip them down to poor BAB, poor Fortitude saves, and d6 HD.
But what do other people think?
Well, I run Gestalt, so your mileage may vary. But I've found this is a very solid way of dealing with "weak" classes that are thematically linked. I did the same thing with Hexblade and Warlock, and combined several base classes with Prestige Classes that were essentially built for them.
Basically, just shove the two together so that, over the course of 20 levels, they get all the class features of both. Rebalance it so that the abilities are more evenly spread out, but otherwise take them pretty much as is.
What do people think of this?
I do the same thing. They get the Ardent power progression and mantle selection, and all of the Divine Mind aura abilities. I don't give them Divine Grace.
I also strip them down to poor BAB, poor Fortitude saves, and d6 HD.
But what do other people think?Well, I run Gestalt, so your mileage may vary. But I've found this is a very solid way of dealing with "weak" classes that are thematically linked. I did the same thing with Hexblade and Warlock, and combined several base classes with Prestige Classes that were essentially built for them.
Well, glad to see I'm not crazy. My players (all of them) are suggesting that I keep the traits you listed above as omitted. I'm kinda leaning towards keeping them, b/c really the class ends up very much like a druid in power that way. But I suppose we'll see how it balances out in play.
Well, glad to see I'm not crazy. My players (all of them) are suggesting that I keep the traits you listed above as omitted. I'm kinda leaning towards keeping them, b/c really the class ends up very much like a druid in power that way. But I suppose we'll see how it balances out in play.
It probably isn't broken at all the way you're running it. I just dislike full casters at more than 1/2 BAB, and it's too easy to get astronomical saving throws in Gestalt-- Evasion, Mettle, Divine Grace and Arcane Resistance on top of three good saves, for instance. If I were running single class, I might be more inclined to allow them to keep it.
As for "very much like a Druid", that's exactly what I'm worried about.
I like this idea! I had simply written off those classes as a waste of space but you may have given them a new lease on existence.
SM
I like this idea! I had simply written off those classes as a waste of space but you may have given them a new lease on existence.
SM
YAY! I did something good!
YAY! I did something good!I like this idea! I had simply written off those classes as a waste of space but you may have given them a new lease on existence.
SM
If anyone cares, I figure this is what the class would look like after spreading out the abilities a bit. I moved the 3rd mantle acquisition up to 5th level (mostly so the math works better, and to scale the mantles up slowly rather than frontload), and gave the Expanded Knowledge feat out early to make up for any weird gaps in powers. This however is mostly balanced by reducing Powers Known to the Psi Warrior table (functionally 1 less than Ardent gets). PP's remain the same as for the Ardent. There isn't any new 20th lvl ability, but I figure this isn't a big deal, as the 3rd aura is pretty powerful all on its own.
Medium BAB, Good Fort/Will, 2+ Skills
1-Assume Psionic Mantle (2), Psychic Aura (5')
2-Divine Grace
3-Psychic Aura (10')
4-Expanded knowledge
5-Assume Psionic Mantle, Psychic Aura (15')
6-Change Aura (Standard Action)
7Psychic Aura (20')
8-
9-Psychic Aura (25')
10-Assume Psionic Mantle, 2nd Aura
11-Psychic Aura (30')
12-Change Aura (Move Action)
13-Psychic Aura (35')
14-
15-Assume Psionic Mantle, Psychic Aura (40')
16-
17-Psychic Aura (45')
18-Change Aura (Swift Action)
19-Psychic Aura (50')
20-Assume Psionic Mantle, 3rd Aura
I will post updates on balance issues I've found with this class as it sees play in my campaign.
Currently the player is level 4. the class has been exceptionally well balanced, perhaps even a bit weaker than some of the other characters in the party. The aura enhancements are nice, but not heavily influential at this point. The power use is more limited, but as the character chose the energy mantle, they do have some nice oomph when necessary.
The melee combat abilities of the class are nothing special, and really only aid in getting off better touch attacks for energy ray and similar attacks. The nova ability of the class is minimal as, though it can do slightly more damage in a single hit, it doesn't have enough staying power to keep doing high damage attacks, and it doesn't have the raw utility that something like a druid or cleric would have at this level.
I'll try to post another update somewhere around 6-8th levels, since the game balance shifts somewhat around there usually (3-4th level spells, 2nd iterative attacks, etc.). If anyone has questions, I'll be happy to answer them, as this is actually one of the best playing psionic conversions to pathfinder that I've seen so far, and would be happy to see others implement it.