Questions about an Undead Synthesist Summoner

In a campaign that I am playing in, I am creating a new character. Essentially, an undead skeleton (though my GM is allowing me to swap the 'Undead' type with the 'Deathless' type). We mostly play 3.5 still with some pathfinder thrown in, so consider me as having the same advantages and disadvantages as a 3.5 undead. As he will be a Synthesist summoner, I have a few questions, having never made one.

First, I did take a look at the FAQ for the summoner, but there were still somethings that I need clarification on.

First, Synthesist Summoners use their Eidolon's senses to see, right? What if I have the Lifesense feat, which causes living creatures to give off light. Can I see said light while fused?

Second, it says that I would count as both a Deathless and an Outsider, whichever is worse. How does that affect my immunities? For example, can I be poisoned? Can I be affected by mind-affects? Can my Eidolon be put to sleep? Can it drown?

Third, how do my magic items affect the Eidolon? For example, say I have a necklace of adaptation. Does it benefit the Eidolon? If I wear a belt of giant's strength, does it affect it? Or do magic items only benefit the Eidolon if I wear them after it has been summoned?

Fourth, also in regards to magic items. It says that I can use all my gear except armor. How do I retrieve said gear if it is under my suit? Do I need to dismiss the Eidolon to get to my backpack? If so, should I summon the Eidolon while only wearing the bare-minimum equipment?

Thanks for any answers you can provide. I am sure I will have more questions.

1) Ask your GM. The Synth is a huge ball of incongruities. And it was banned from PFS play due to all the mismatches and corner cases.

2) Whichever is worse, covers it. You may be deathless your eidolon isn't. While merged, your eidolon could be drowned or put to sleep, etc. This would also mean Fort saves would have to be made etc.

3) Talk to the GM (again, sensing a theme here?). More corner cases. I believe, they should affect the eidolon as detailed in the write up.

4) Pretty much, think of it like a Polymorph effect, the item isn't usuable in your eidolon form. Wear your bare minimum gear, drop anything you may want to use and then pick it up when you are ready to get going in the morning.

This is a little off topic, but I would suggest looking up the Aegis class on d20pfsrd. It was made to fill a similar niche to the summoner but was better implemented and more balanced in most people's opinion.

1) Sounds fair. True, also, there were a lot of questions that needed answering. Thankfully the FAQ covers a lot of it.

2) What exactly happens when it falls asleep but I am awake? Since it has to mimic what I am doing, if it can't, does that mean I can't move? Since on-going affects transfer to me when I dismiss it, can I dismiss it and then Summon Eidolon and get right back into the fight?

2a) Regarding saves, I read that things that target physical ability scores go to the Eidolon while things that target mental go to the summoner. Does this extend to things like will saves? If I am immune to mind-affecting effects and the Eidolon has no mental ability scores while fused, would we be immune?

3) I would expect they affect the Eidolon because otherwise what is the point of making their slots shared? I'll have to talk to him.

4) What about once the Eidolon is large or huge and no longer is a skin-tight suit? If I am floating at its center, can I then retrieve items? Even though it might look odd if the eidolon retrieves imaginary items while it mimics me...

Regarding Aegis, I'll have a look. The Summoner was approved because the GM played one and really liked it. We haven't made a full transition to Pathfinder yet (though we both want to) so other classes would need to be presented for approval.

1) The ability does not indicate that you lose your own senses/SQ.

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor.

2) This is only related to type, immunities should still apply (see above). (Effects based on type are usually for purposes of targeting or additional damage. I'm not even convinced that your immunities can be bypassed by receiving one of those conditions expressly because you are an outsider, since your own abilities are always still in play, but possibly expect table variation.)

While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist.

3) You are affected as a single creature (apply all effects equally to both creatures). Effects that modify stats do so to both sets of stats (this is only particularly notable for Con scores).

Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature.

Gear with constant effects essentially targets you with that effect.

4) Your gear should be available as is it expressly indicates that it is (however you want to fluff this).
It is not a polymorph effect in any way.

(bold "gear" rather than "abilities" from #1)

1.

The ability does not indicate that you lose your own senses/SQ.

Interesting. That is good. It was just the whole "perceives through the Eidolon's senses", so I wasn't sure.

2.

This is only related to type, immunities should still apply (see above). (Effects based on type are usually for purposes of targeting or additional damage. I'm not even convinced that your immunities can be bypassed by receiving one of those conditions expressly because you are an outsider, since your own abilities are always still in play, but possibly expect table variation.)

So, if it is only for effects related to type, then can the Eidolon suffer from the effects of fatigue, exhaustion, etc? Normally as an outsider it can, but if I am undead and we're a single creature, does it just get augmented by my immunites?

3.

You are affected as a single creature (apply all effects equally to both creatures). Effects that modify stats do so to both sets of stats (this is only particularly notable for Con scores).

Doesn't this go against the FAQ which stated that ability drain and damage to physical stats affected the Eidolon while mental ones affected the summoner? Otherwise, wouldn't this roll back in to #2, where I am immune?

4.

Your gear should be available as is it expressly indicates that it is (however you want to fluff this).

It is not a polymorph effect in any way.

I see. I guess I am thinking too much in to the skin-suit thing and how I'd get gear out from under it.

2. You can't be affected separately, you are immune if either is immune.

3. This is not entirely contrary to the FAQ, although the FAQ "clarification" is probably more of an errata to the rule supplied in the book (although I do find it mostly fair to read the original rule either way since the combined creature uses a mixed set of stats).
Here is the crux with your Con score though: you use the eidolon's score while fused, and so does he for the temporary hp pool, so if it's affected up or down it adjusts both standard and temporary hp.
Check the FAQ below the one you referenced though, because every effect other than direct damage/drain essentially effects both parties equally. (And, imo, it's the "instant death/disabled" upon loss of your suit that prompted the FAQ, because otherwise you would retain those penalties.)

2.

You can't be affected separately, you are immune if either is immune.

That makes sense, unless it is an affect based on type such as Searing Light dealing more damage to an undead, or Banish working on an Outsider. Thanks, I understand now.

3.

This is not entirely contrary to the FAQ, although the FAQ "clarification" is probably more of an errata to the rule supplied in the book (although I do find it mostly fair to read the original rule either way since the combined creature uses a mixed set of stats).

Here is the crux with your Con score though: you use the eidolon's score while fused, and so does he for the temporary hp pool, so if it's affected up or down it adjusts both standard and temporary hp.
Check the FAQ below the one you referenced though, because every effect other than direct damage/drain essentially effects both parties equally. (And, imo, it's the "instant death/disabled" upon loss of your suit that prompted the FAQ, because otherwise you would retain those penalties.)

The FAQ does specify that ongoing affects persist, but damage and drain to the borrowed stats don't. But, if #2 is true and my immunities carry over to the fused form, for the most part, I wouldn't worry about much of this that is not an ongoing HP damaging affect (unless it worked on undead or outsiders specifically).

You brought up an interesting point, however. Since I will have no Con, how would the fused form's HP be derived? I think it's just the Eidolon's HP on top of mine, but it also mentions I get its ability modifiers, whatever that means. Does that mean that while fused, I just treat my Con score as being the same as the Eidolon's? Do I readjust my base HP?

3. Is this the template you're using?

If so, it would appear that you would continue to draw your bonus HP per HD from Cha, however, you would replace your - with its Con score, and it would use its Con score to derive its total HP that you gain as temporary HP.

I say this because "racial traits" do not automatically equate to "abilities", but ask your GM which score he wants you to use.

3. Is this the template you're using?

No, essentially, consider a Necropolitan, except instead of becoming an undead, I became a Deathless (from the Book of Exalted Deeds). But I can see where you are going. So I'd derive my HP as normal, then just add the Eidolon's HP on top as normal? What is this "gain its ability modifiers" business?

Archaeik wrote:

3. Is this the template you're using?

No, essentially, consider a Necropolitan, except instead of becoming an undead, I became a Deathless (from the Book of Exalted Deeds). But I can see where you are going. So I'd derive my HP as normal, then just add the Eidolon's HP on top as normal? What is this "gain its ability modifiers" business?

Wait, do you not get bonus HP from Cha? (It's not mentioned in the BoED description that I can see)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "gain its ability modifiers"?
If you're referring to this

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma).

It does exactly what it says, and the FAQ clarifies that it functions as an actual replacement of your physical ability scores by virtue of the damage/drain not persisting; so you do have Con score while fused.

Which makes this combo retardedly difficult. Because you don't have a CON when you are undead, so you aren't undead when you summon your eidolon (because now you have a CON score)? Undead immunities are from not having biological functions. The fused eidolon grants them to you, and you are supposed to take the worst case scenario when it comes to the way things affect you.

Again, this is why I suggest the Aegis. None of this grey area obnoxiousness from a poorly written archtype.

Wait, do you not get bonus HP from Cha? (It's not mentioned in the BoED description that I can see)

I ask, because my understanding was that part of the justification for undead getting a d12 racial was that they were denied bonus HP through not having a Con score.
If this is the case, regaining that score while fused likely should add bonus HP.

That is what I expect should happen, too, because I'd suddenly gain a Con modifier for bonus HP.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "gain its ability modifiers"?

Actually, I am referring to the line after that:

The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores.

I would have assumed it would be rolled into getting its physical ability scores, but since they made a separate distinction, I wasn't sure.

Which makes this combo retardedly difficult. Because you don't have a CON when you are undead, so you aren't undead when you summon your eidolon (because now you have a CON score)? Undead immunities are from not having biological functions. The fused eidolon grants them to you, and you are supposed to take the worst case scenario when it comes to the way things affect you.

True, they do come from not having a con score. But, I don't lose my type. As was explained to me, the "worst case scenario" thing only matters to spells and effects that work differently on specific types, not for general things such as conditions, poisons, and diseases, which themselves make no distinctions based on type.

The Aegis did look cool, but I am not sure how well it'd suit my character conceptually. Or if the GM would allow a third-party class.

Ah, okay this is why I was confused. "modifiers to ability scores" is not the same thing as an "ability score modifier".

That line is referring to the boosts from the chart (and the Ability Increase/Large/Huge evolutions).

Re: Undead
I suppose a RAI case can be made that you should lose the Undead type while fused, which would certainly make this combination less broken, but I know of no rule that actually states or suggests this, only the fluff surrounding why Undead lose that score.

RAW, you lose nothing that I can see. (ie. the rule state "you have no Con score because you are Undead", not [also] "you are Undead because you have no Con score")

Using combinations that the rules never considered doesn't make "RAW" a valid argument. Which again, is why this archtype was banned. Obviously you are in a home game, but that doesn't change the fact that if you all th sudden gain a constitution you are blantently ignoring the intent of the rules why toting around the "RAW doesn't say I lose this stuff" banner.

There has never been an undead Synth published, we don't know what the RAW is, as the archtype was never meant to be used by undead (because it isn't an option for player characters).

There are no "alive undead" so if you have a CON you are not undead anymore. I guess the best way to explain it, undead type states you have a CON of -, nil. It is part of being undead. If you all the sudden gain a CON score, you no longer are able to be undead. Your type all the sudden changed. Similar to a prerequisite.

As a home game, I would bring it up to your GM both pro's and con's.

Ah, okay this is why I was confused. "modifiers to ability scores" is not the same thing as an "ability score modifier".

That line is referring to the boosts from the chart (and the Ability Increase/Large/Huge evolutions).

Re: Undead
I suppose a RAI case can be made that you should lose the Undead type while fused, which would certainly make this combination less broken, but I know of no rule that actually states or suggests this, only the fluff surrounding why Undead lose that score.

RAW, you lose nothing that I can see. (ie. the rule state "you have no Con score because you are Undead", not [also] "you are Undead because you have no Con score")

Stop using RAW, because quite obviously RAW is silent on the matter of an archetype being used in a way never intended for player characters to have access to. This is so far into the territory of House Rules™ it isn't even something to you should be attempting to label RAW.

Stop using RAW, because quite obviously RAW is silent on the matter of an archetype being used in a way never intended for player characters to have access to. This is so far into the territory of House Rules™ it isn't even something to you should be attempting to label RAW.

It's somewhat moot for actual PFRPG rules as the undead would continue to draw bonus HP from Cha regardless.

A Skeletal Champion could easily have this combination per the current rules, what you say about Undead and Con scores is merely an interpretation, same as mine, but yours has less support from the published rules.

Skylancer4 wrote:

Stop using RAW, because quite obviously RAW is silent on the matter of an archetype being used in a way never intended for player characters to have access to. This is so far into the territory of House Rules™ it isn't even something to you should be attempting to label RAW.

It's somewhat moot for actual PFRPG rules as the undead would continue to draw bonus HP from Cha regardless.

A Skeletal Champion could easily have this combination per the current rules, what you say about Undead and Con scores is merely an interpretation, same as mine, but yours has less support from the published rules.

How are you playing a skeletal champion as a PC? The GM allowing it, as a house rule?

I never even implied that the creature was a PC.
Are you under the impression that NPC's can't use archetypes?

I used it as an example because skeletal champions expressly template a creature without losing class features, so it's less custom than suggesting a different undead with synth levels added arbitrarily; the point being that the combination is 100% possible under the current framework of the rules without a lot of need to even justify it.

I never even implied that the creature was a PC.

Are you under the impression that NPC's can't use archetypes?

I used it as an example because skeletal champions expressly template a creature without losing class features, so it's less custom than suggesting a different undead with synth levels added arbitrarily; the point being that the combination is 100% possible under the current framework of the rules without a lot of need to even justify it.

But possible doesn't mean that it works the way that you say it does. It just means that the rules haven't covered every possible combination to the point that every option is covered.

The game just isn't "RAW" exclusively, there is absolutely intent. This is why we have numerous errata and FAQs.

The RAW argument is often used by people to get their way when intent is quite obviously not what they are interested in following. RAW doesn't say I can't speak or walk around after I'm dead. What does that mean? I can do so right?

The rules are silent on giving creatures with a non-score CON a CON score. It just isn't covered.

I agree it isn't expressly covered, but there also isn't any indication that you somehow lose your type either. I can't think of a single ability that actually does that other than PAO.

Besides, the undead certainly isn't becoming alive again; it's only gaining, a mostly nonfunctional Con score.

Also, I think you may be putting too much emphasis on the the eidolon, in truth, being a separate creature, because the rules elements that deal with the fusion are clear that it only really functions as a fleshy suit that grants a bunch of powers, which is why it's pretty much only targetable by banishment/dismissal; it's more like a very exotic piece of equipment than anything else.

Why would there be an "indication" if it were never intended.

That is the ENTIRE point.

You are using a loophole, saying it doesn't say you can't. But why would it? It was never an intended rules combination. There was no point in saying anything regarding the possible combination. Undead PCs aren't on the radar for core, and that is even before getting into what a horrible mess the archetype is. What does it have 3 errata+FAQs? I think that may be more than some of their books. And it is what, 2 pages?

Almost 100% of classes are designed for PC use. Sure a GM can make NPCs with them, but they are intended for PC use. Any weirdness or oddities past that are all in the GM's hands and Rule 0. RAW doesn't even come close to covering this situation. It barely even skirts it.

It's only truly an issue when you mix it back into 3.5 imo. If you manage to reduce an Undead Synthesist to 0 hp it is still destroyed as normal.
Outside of flavor, I can't see 1 thing that's actually problematic with this.

Wow, I didn't think my questions would spark a debate like this. I do see both sides of the argument, and yes, many of my questions do come from the fact that this combination hasn't really been discussed. We took a concept that sounded cool with a class that the GM liked and that I wanted to give a try.

I don't mind not gaining the Con stat, but I certainly wouldn't mind having the bonus hit points. The idea was that my skeleton was more or less summoning a fleshy armored body, so it could be reasoned that the fleshy bits are what give the extra HP (assuming I got the Con). If I don't get the Con, then I'm still summoning a walking suit of large/huge armor - maybe I'd just be an undead wearing a golem mini-mech suit.

Even if you don't get the CON, you would still have the temporary hit points from the eidolon's HD.

And just for completeness, there is another school of thought that one of our group brought up too. Positive and negative energy don't play well.

Merging a positive energy being like a living eidolon and a negative energy being like an undead, would probably not end well. By nature their powering forces would be at war. The easiest "result" would be that the combination just doesn't work. The messiest is that they attempt to kill each other while merged.

Just something else to think on.

Even if you don't get the CON, you would still have the temporary hit points from the eidolon's HD.

And just for completeness, there is another school of thought that one of our group brought up too. Positive and negative energy don't play well.

Merging a positive energy being like a living eidolon and a negative energy being like an undead, would probably not end well. By nature their powering forces would be at war. The easiest "result" would be that the combination just doesn't work. The messiest is that they attempt to kill each other while merged.

Just something else to think on.

While this would probably be an interesting conundrum for our game, my character's type is actually Deathless. Essentially, "Good" undead that are healed by positive energy and harmed by negative energy.