Monster Mashup - Master Thread

Game Master CaveToad

Can you rescue your 'beloved' mentor from the forces of evil? Will you make your way in a world that may not trust you, understand you, or want you? Will you stay true to the path Goodwin set out for you, or revert back to your former life?


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Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8
CaveToad wrote:

@Quassine: I am leaning toward combined pool and the +1 from class levels, taking stat bonus only once. I have a tiny part of me that things it should be separate pools and allow stat bonus twice, but each pool can only be used for that class's stuff, but that seems like a headache and isn't really how things are designed. Go with the former for now and any change of mind will be an upgrade probably :)

We have a uMonk/Stalker on our table, he answered the question there. I don't think he revised his ruling afterwards.

Note the following description of the Ninja Ki pool:

Quote:

Ki Pool (Su)

At 2nd level, a ninja gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her ninja level + her Charisma modifier. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if she had a running start....

The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.

It's weird how things stack really... Panache (and luck from Sleuth and grit) you add all the pools together and can use the pools interchangeably. Ki pool you use one ability modifier, but add levels together. Channel Energy you count each class as a separate ability. Animal Companions you stack the levels (up to a maximum of character level). I'm sure there are other abilities with even weirder stacking rules. Familiars are overruled to be maximum one per character.


gyrfalcon wrote:

Hi CaveToad (or others, if this has already been spelled out somewhere), I have a couple questions:

If I take levels in both Stalker & Monk, will I end up with two ki pools? (I'm assuming so based on this FAQ) And if so, can ki from each pool only be spent on that class' abilities?

Second question, is this game allowing the same attribute bonus to be added to something twice? (e.g. Monk's AC bonus and a Mystic (Aurora Soul)'s Defensive Aura, which both (under certain conditions) add WIS to AC as an untyped bonus). RAW, this has been ruled a No...but this campaign is wacky enough that I thought I'd ask.

EDIT: one more, I believe Archetypes on uMonk is left to DM discretion. Any ruling here on applying them? I'm thinking in particular of drunken master and master of many styles.

Thanks,

Ki pool stuff I answered, see Xanya's post above.

Doubling bonuses from attributes twice, no, except in certain situations where is is explicitly spelled out that they stack.

Unchained monks cannot have an archetype here.


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

About attribute stacking... Does Derro's Madness stack with something granting charisma to will, for example Paladin's Divine Grace. I believe they would since Madness isn't actually a bonus, it just replaces will as the base stat, but I guess it could be interpreted both ways.


Thanks Xanya and CaveToad!


Female Kitsune HP 60/60 CP 7/7 PP 16/16 LP 8/8
Stats:
AC/Touch/Flat/CMD 18/17/11/25 | Fort/Ref/Will +14/+17/+14 | Init +09
Brd/Smn/Pal 4//War 1
Trained Skills:
+22: Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Wind +20: Dance +15: Linguistics, Paint, Alchemy +13: Disguise +11: K(Pla, Rel), Spellcraft, +9: Stealth +8: K(Arc, Dun, Eng, Nat), Perception, SM, Swim

Three Snips:

Nope.

Nope.

Nope.

Essentially, an untyped attribute (Cha) bonus is considered a Cha bonus, and doesn't stack with another Cha bonus.

This isn't the case for something that uses your modifier as a typed bonus, for example:

Imperious Bloodline wrote:
Student of Humanity (Ex): At 1st level, you gain Diplomacy, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility), and Linguistics as class skills. In addition, when using these skills to learn, study, or gather information about humans, you add an insight bonus equal to your Charisma bonus on such checks.

You do Add your charisma to diplomacy a second time as an insight bonus, which will not stack with other insight bonuses. (Similar for luck bonuses, competence bonuses, natural armor bonuses, etc.)

Derro Replaces Wis with Cha, and then you try to add Cha to Cha, which simply doesn't work (as both are untyped).

Unless Cavetoad opts otherwise. :)


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

None of those links are official answers, and even if they were he doesn't even agree with himself! This is how he would rule it in his games, and he also mentioned he'll rule against anything more powerful than found in the core rules.

Quote:
Modifiers from ability scores aren't actually bonuses, strictly speaking. If they are...

This starts with saying something isn't true, then build an argument based on if reality was different.

Still, my opinion doesn't matter, only CTs...


I am inclined to allow it due to the nature of the Derro madness. It goes against the general precedent and I would not want to use this exception as a precedent to other stacking questions that arise.


posting will be sporadic today, internet connection seems flaky.


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

The new grey paladin archtype together with chawful means anyone can be a paladin!


Okay, so I'm looking for advice on how to build the character I'm envisioning. I want to play a character that will be able to use Performance Feats to great advantage. He or she will be a performer first and foremost, with every combat being a chance to show off.

In the past, when building this type of character, I went Fighter//Bard, because it's a feat-heavy build that's best suited to the front lines. With this particular setup, however, I don't need the extra feats as much, and so I can afford to branch out a bit.

I think I've settled on Swashbuckler as one of the classes, as it fits perfectly with the theme of the character and provides Finesse, which will allow me to wield a bastard sword with dex to hit via Slashing Grace. I'm almost entirely sold on Bard, as it has a lovely archetype called Arcane Duelist which I really like, though I'm also considering Skald.

The real question is what to pick for a third class? Fighter is always a solid choice, and the Gladiator archetype fits this character perfectly, but it might be a bit superfluous. Bloodrager and Skald would allow me to take advantage of my high charisma score, as would Sorcerer, Oracle, and Paladin, though the latter three don't fit that well thematically.

Any suggestions or thoughts?


I like Bloodrager more than the options you gave, but since you already have the full BAB, you might want to look at the Eldritch Scion Magus as well. Just plan well so you don't starve of actions, especially swift.


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

I know you said paladin doesn't fit, but really, what is performance combat if not another aspect of the art that all disciples of Shelyn venerate? A bard//paladin would be perfect for the marshal mythic path.

How married are you to the bastard sword? A glaive would fit better for a follower of Shelyn, especially if you go into the Sentinel prestige class (probably from swashbuckler). You would need Pikeman Training (from PoW:E) and Slashing grace to make it count as a one handed piercing weapon though (but it would also give you a one handed reach weapon which is awesome).

Of course, the downside to following my advice is that once you reach mythic + 6 levels of sentinel you'll be able to smite for 2xcha to hit and level+cha to damage for the whole team (though only against 1 enemy per time at the cost of a swift action). That 2nd boon for Sentinels is almost balanced for a character with full paladin levels...

Warlord or Mesmerist are my next suggestions. Not as powerful as what I mentioned above, but cha to will haven't hurt anyone. Both would give you a ton of extra defense and utility (either through maneuvers or tricks). Mithral Current Discipline sounds like it would fit very well thematically, though sadly Warlords doesn't get it out of the gate. Warlord fits quite well flavorwise I think...


Actually, I'm rethinking my bastard sword idea, because I just realized that in order to use performance feats effectively, I need a crit build. That makes Barbarian an oddly attractive option, what with Titan Mauler giving me access to dual-wielding elven curve blades...


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

For a crit build the most important thing is a lot of attacks with a high crit multiplier. Weapons generally have much higher crit ranges than natural attacks. In order to work with swashbuckler though you can't really be two weapon fighting. Either flurrying (look at Goliath on our table as an example) or spell combat with touch spells allow you to circumvent that. Inspired Blade + Magus is a great combination, especially for this game where you can get as many as 10 panache points from Inspired Blade alone at level 1. Stalker is another great option for a crit build, rolling twice for every attack and allowing you to increase the threat range further than keen/improved critical allows makes it much easier to crit. Again I'm not sure if there is a stalker archtype that let you pick mithral current, but you can always just get it through the trait.


Okay, so after thinking it over a little bit, here's what I've come up with:

Instead of Swashbuckler, I'm going to take Unchained Rogue for Weapon Finesse and dex to damage. I'll take Fighter (probably the Two Weapon Warrior archetype) for full BAB and all the feats, because this will be a feat-heavy build. Then I'll take bard for flavor, ally buffing, and fun times all around.

I'll be doing two-weapon fighting, scoring lots of crits, laying down debuffs all over the place, and all while buffing my allies.


In reading the magic creation rules, there is probably some clarifying I can do to make the cost calculations clearer for putting enchantments that are not normal to the slot/item on it, as well as secondary, tertiary etc enchantments, and the tax math.

Tentatively this is what I have (this isn't really any different from how things work normally):

1) You pay a 50% tax on the item if the enchantment you are adding is not standard for the item ( like adding a metamagic rod effect to an amulet )
2) You pay a 50% tax on any secondary and beyond enchantments
3) The most expensive (pre-tax) enchantment becomes your primary enchantment.
4) If your secondary and beyond enchantments are also not standard to the item slot, the tax is 1.5 x 1.5 or 2.25.

Comments, concerns, anything missing or unclear, imbalanced?


M Wayang Bard 4 / Bloodrager 4 / Oracle 4
Stats:
HP 51/51+, AC 18/16, T 17/14, FF 12/10, Init +5, Fort +5/+7, Ref +10, Will +8, Perception +11, Stealth +16, Intimidate +19/21/+23, Rage 11/11, Perform 16/16
Party Buffs:
Misfortune: immediate re-roll of one d20

Err... Don't the normal rules for 2) have it as 50% for every additional? So Enchantment 2 costs 1.5x, #3 costs 2.25x, #4 costs 3.375x etc...

* * *

Also, hmm... going to have to eventually choose between a cohort and an item cohort. That'll be tricky.


The non-slot rule isn't actually in pathfinder. (strength goes in bracers or belts, not headbands, etc).

If you are making a slotless item, there is a 100% increase in cost for the first magical effect. Similar magical effects get a reduction of 75% for the second effect, 50% for other effects.

So, something that would normally cost 10,000 gold to enchant that is being used in a slotless capacity, would cost 20,000. Add a similar ability (also based at 10,000) for 7500, and a third would be added for 5000. The rule isn't clear if that 7500 should be doubled for slotless as well.

For an item that takes up a body slot, pay full price for the most expensive aspect, then each additional component is charged an additional 50%.

So using three effects that have base prices of 20,000, 10,000 and 5000 gold we would have a combined item that cost 20k + 15k + 7.5k = 42,500 gold.

The easiest way to handle magic crafting is just pick two items you want, (a ring of protection +2 (8000) plus a ring of sustenance (2500) would cost 11375 for one "sustenance ring of protection 2".

Keep in mind that most attractive (I'll enchant this spell into a magic item" will fail the true strike test.

Ie, any item that gives a bonus that already exists, especially to-hit, as, saves, etc, needs to be priced based on the effect, not the spell level.


Dalang Teniel wrote:

Err... Don't the normal rules for 2) have it as 50% for every additional? So Enchantment 2 costs 1.5x, #3 costs 2.25x, #4 costs 3.375x etc...

* * *

Also, hmm... going to have to eventually choose between a cohort and an item cohort. That'll be tricky.

I will have to check that. I can't remember if there is an increasing tax. I'm not opposed to tweaking the costs one way or another.


fnord72 wrote:

The non-slot rule isn't actually in pathfinder. (strength goes in bracers or belts, not headbands, etc).

If you are making a slotless item, there is a 100% increase in cost for the first magical effect. Similar magical effects get a reduction of 75% for the second effect, 50% for other effects.

So, something that would normally cost 10,000 gold to enchant that is being used in a slotless capacity, would cost 20,000. Add a similar ability (also based at 10,000) for 7500, and a third would be added for 5000. The rule isn't clear if that 7500 should be doubled for slotless as well.

For an item that takes up a body slot, pay full price for the most expensive aspect, then each additional component is charged an additional 50%.

So using three effects that have base prices of 20,000, 10,000 and 5000 gold we would have a combined item that cost 20k + 15k + 7.5k = 42,500 gold.

The easiest way to handle magic crafting is just pick two items you want, (a ring of protection +2 (8000) plus a ring of sustenance (2500) would cost 11375 for one "sustenance ring of protection 2".

Keep in mind that most attractive (I'll enchant this spell into a magic item" will fail the true strike test.

Ie, any item that gives a bonus that already exists, especially to-hit, as, saves, etc, needs to be priced based on the effect, not the spell level.

The main reason I did away with some of the rules it to keep it simple. Thus I removed the similar magical effect reduction and other limitations since some of them are vague. I also had a special ruling added where you cannot duplicate an always on effect that doesn't already exist (falls under the always on True Strike item umbrella ).


Back in town after Mother's day stuff, will try to get games updated tomorrow.


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

The feeling when you deal ~150 damage but is still worried that the enemy might kill one of you before you manage to take her down... Exciting :D


Male Merfolk U.Rogue 4 / U.Monk 4 / Shaman 4 | HP: 64/64 | AC: 24 T:22 FF: 18 | CMD:22 | F:+8 R:+10 W:+9| Init: +6 Perc: +9* | Darkvision 120' + Low-light

That is terrifying. Good luck! (mostly to Goliath)


HP: 102/102 | AC: 23 (Current 37), T: 19 (Current 19) , FF: 18, | Fort: 12, Reflex: 8, Will: 11 | CMB: +16, CMD: 36(Current: 46) | Init: +11, Perception: +13 | Panache: 6/6 | Channel 6/6 | Hero Point 3/5 | Charmed Life 4/4 | Ki Pool 6/6

The scariest part was seeing the +35 to hit, I only had a +19 to parry -2 for the size difference. So I needed a 20 and needed the Giant to roll a 1 or a 2 or unconscious I go. I probably would have survived as long as it directed attacks else where, or it probably would have only used on attack on me and then a move action to pick up the scepter maybe. Who knows we killed it :) Hero points well spent.


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

You gotta get that parry up :). Xanya was rocking a nice +32 to hit this fight(on a charge anyway). In a couple levels she'll be able to parry too. Of course no time to buff makes it harder to keep things up, but that was the same for all of us...


M Wayang Bard 4 / Bloodrager 4 / Oracle 4
Stats:
HP 51/51+, AC 18/16, T 17/14, FF 12/10, Init +5, Fort +5/+7, Ref +10, Will +8, Perception +11, Stealth +16, Intimidate +19/21/+23, Rage 11/11, Perform 16/16
Party Buffs:
Misfortune: immediate re-roll of one d20

Yeah I'm banking hero points for "avoid death." Seems smart at this point.


- INACTIVE - (GM abandoned game)

I almost spent a bunch of hero points to heal a fallen companion up before some looming enemies reached us, but we ended up having a full minute of prep time so I was able to keep them.

Swashbuckler would be a great dip for Lotham...


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

I'm dipping inspired blade at 8 for the nice 11 panache at 8. It's a great dip, especially for characters with a lot of charisma (and intelligence if going inspired blade). Counter-intuitively it's probably a better dip for a strength based character than for a dexterity based character since a dexterity based character at least get to add their primary stat to AC. I might pick up Investigator (Sleuth) for even more panache from Twin Mind, though it's a shame you can't stack that with Empiricist. Getting Sense Motive and Perception based on another stat would be golden for Xanya.

@Teniel: Banking a couple points is a good idea, but the rest can be used to avoid having to use the last couple ;).


M Wayang Bard 4 / Bloodrager 4 / Oracle 4
Stats:
HP 51/51+, AC 18/16, T 17/14, FF 12/10, Init +5, Fort +5/+7, Ref +10, Will +8, Perception +11, Stealth +16, Intimidate +19/21/+23, Rage 11/11, Perform 16/16
Party Buffs:
Misfortune: immediate re-roll of one d20

Haha I'm dipping 100% for bonus feats. Lore Warden (mult 4) gets me the teamwork feats I need to sing Coordinated Charge to everyone at 10 (when at least half at the party will have pounce), MoMS (mult 8) lets me do hilarious shenanigans with PoW style feats, and Arcanist (mult 12) gives me some desperately-needed free metamagics.


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

I think that in general feats are a lot weaker than class abilities. As such I don't think dipping just for feats is the best idea.


M Wayang Bard 4 / Bloodrager 4 / Oracle 4
Stats:
HP 51/51+, AC 18/16, T 17/14, FF 12/10, Init +5, Fort +5/+7, Ref +10, Will +8, Perception +11, Stealth +16, Intimidate +19/21/+23, Rage 11/11, Perform 16/16
Party Buffs:
Misfortune: immediate re-roll of one d20

Yeah... but unlike class abilities, feats get a lot of *synergy*


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

You can get a lot of synergy out of class abilities too... But some synergies might be better from feats. Of course we get a lot of feats anyway, so you might just be able to pull off what you want with the 30 feats we get from levels without having to sacrifice class abilities as well...


M Wayang Bard 4 / Bloodrager 4 / Oracle 4
Stats:
HP 51/51+, AC 18/16, T 17/14, FF 12/10, Init +5, Fort +5/+7, Ref +10, Will +8, Perception +11, Stealth +16, Intimidate +19/21/+23, Rage 11/11, Perform 16/16
Party Buffs:
Misfortune: immediate re-roll of one d20

You may also enjoy the fact that a cheese dip in, say, Sohei, gets you Mounted Skirmisher at level 4 instead of 14.

And I'd rather not wait until level 15 or 20 to have more than one cool thing to do in battle. Cheese dips aren't "class levels," they're tiny boons.


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

I thought Mounted Skirmisher didn't work with charge?


M Wayang Bard 4 / Bloodrager 4 / Oracle 4
Stats:
HP 51/51+, AC 18/16, T 17/14, FF 12/10, Init +5, Fort +5/+7, Ref +10, Will +8, Perception +11, Stealth +16, Intimidate +19/21/+23, Rage 11/11, Perform 16/16
Party Buffs:
Misfortune: immediate re-roll of one d20

It doesn't. But it lets you attack multiple enemies, making it often more situationally useful than Spirited Charge, especially with haste.


DRAFT:

In this ( and many other campaigns everyone has ever played I am sure ) there is always a 'what to do' with unwanted magic items. No one wants the harpoon +1. Usually there is some hand waving and it gets vendored to some shop or someone who buys it. I don't usually like this idea, and if the players don't want it, who else is going to buy it? Some may argue this makes for a good roleplaying hook to try and sell this stuff, but honestly, no it doesn't. Players usually want to get back to the adventuring and just toss the unwanted item into a heap where it never gets looked at again. Adventuring has more bang for the buck anyhow rather than traipsing all over trying to sell off these things. So, in order to be a little more friendly, I drafted a system to take these unwanted items and upcycle them into more goodness via the Signature Item system. The goal is to eliminate the tedious selling of the items (which will still exist somewhat with nonmagical items ) for the gold that players want, to make better items. The goal is not to create a system that can be optimized, min/maxed or exploited.

Read this over and discuss or let me know if I missed anything, or something seems unclear or vague.

Cannibalize Magic Items:

This ability allows one to take an unwanted magic item, and vacuum its magical essence from the item leaving only the nonmagical masterwork/base item intact.
The essence is funneled into the character's Signature Item in the following manner:

1) The value of the magical enchantments alone are considered, not the added cost of the base object, masterwork or otherwise.
Example: A longsword +1 is cannibalized. Only the 2000gp value of the enchantment is used, not the 315gp for the masterwork longsword.
2) The value of the enchantment is halved. This Cannibalized Value (CV) is what is funneled into the Signature Item. The reason it is halved is because you are going to be paying half to enchant it anyhow and this makes it the same as if you had sold the item for 50% value and just used the gold to enchant it normally.
3) The Cannibalizing process can only be done by the owner of the Signature Item.
4) You cannot Cannibalize an item until you are in possession of the item for at least 24 hours (You can't grab some enemy's sword an immediately cannibalize it).
5) The Cannibalizing process is a ritual that takes 1 hour per 1000gp (after the halving in #2) to be cannibalized.
6) Artifacts cannot be cannibalized. Certain low value items also cannot be cannibalized. You cannot cannibalize continual flame items for example, or any other magic item created via a spell, SLA/SU/Ex, class/race ability, etc or anything with a temporary duration. Other special items may also be exempt. This clause is to prevent exploiting and may cover other abusive situations as needed.
7) You can only Cannibalize one item at a time.
8) You can Cannibalize only part of an item if you like, taking X amount of its worth and leaving the rest for another character to cannibalize. The amount must be declared ahead of time.
9) The cannibalized item loses ALL of its enchantments within minutes or starting the ritual. There are no partial enchantments left.
10) Once the ritual is complete the declared Cannibalized Value is sucked into your Signature item and becomes available to use for enchantments (see further). It is be stored as 'CVP' (Cannibalized Value Points/Pool ) and can be stockpiled in your item until you have enough to achieve a desired enchantment (or combined with gold for the same).
11) The CV is NOT applied to the MCP of the item. The CV works as if the item was enchanted with regular gold. Since it does not apply to the MCP it does not affect the Flexible Power Pool stuff like that.
12) As with the MCP value, you cannot merge or use a combination of CV and MCP to create a single effect on the item. You CAN however blend your CV in combination with regular gold to complete an enchantment on the item. Since enchanting your Signature Item with gold works pretty much like regular enchantments, so does the process for using CVP, in terms of rules and extra enchantment taxes etc., with some exceptions (as laid out on the rules for Signature Items).
13) When enchanting your item with CV, you must still make a Spellcraft check for success to complete the item as you would a normal magic item (this can be a limiter for some characters). Failure results in the loss of 25% of the CV that was used for the enchantment.
14) You are not required to possess the necessary item creation feat (but your character level must be the minimum level required to obtain the feat for a caster, example 3rd level for Wondrous item, 7th for ring powers, 5th for arms/armor etc) when using CVP to enchant your Signature Item, UNLESS you are combining real gold with the cannibalized item, then you must follow the regular rules and need the feat. You can have help from someone who has the necessary feat, but BOTH characters must devote the required time, which is the same as enchanting an item normally (1 day/1000gp). The upside to that is that the assisting character can Aid Another with the Spellcraft roll. If more than half of the combined value of CV and gold are gold, then the assisting character can make the check instead of the Signature Item owner, and have the person whose Signature Item it is, do the Aiding.
15) If you are only using CVP or a combination of CVP and gold, where the majority is from CVP, then the Signature Item owner must make the Spellcraft check but can still have others Aid Another on the roll (along with other enchancement bonuses of course).


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

So no splitting up stuff between players? It seems like it'll be hard to divide things fairly for expensive items.

For weapons (or other scaling items really), it seems quite inconvenient that you can't combine the various pools.

Since these can only be used for signature item stuff and not combined with whatever other enchatment is on the items it'll always be 150% (or 225% if offslot) of the price compared to crafting a normal item that you want.


- INACTIVE - (GM abandoned game)

He says you can split it up, actually.

I like it, looks useful.


You CAN split a valuable item up, cannibalizing only part of it and leaving the rest for others. See #8.

I don't want the pools to combine because the goal is only to save you the hassle of trying to sell obscure magic items, its just a different way to fast track that magic item into cash you can use. Since you can combine it with gold for enchanting, its really just the same (albeit with some slightly more flexiblity - ie bypassing the feats needed if you do it without gold). Note that using the MCP already ignores needing the feat and has no level restriction (probably should).

Your point about it only being allowed for signature items, and thus taxes, is correct.


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

So, what items can be fused into weapons without paying the 50% tax? Nothing except specific magic weapons? Or are you going to allow stuff that could have reasonably been a magic weapon (for example +5 to a skill)? Would adding +5 diplomacy to my lance (let's say a magical pennant that shifts to be soothing towards whoever looks upon it) cost 3750 or 5625? The item I want the most is probably Horsemaster's Saddle. It doesn't seem like we'll be getting much wealth outside of our signature weapons any time soon. Would it cost 18000 or 27000 to fuse it into my weapon?

How do we calculate the expense of specific magic items? Specifically I'm looking at Gloom Blade (the same as adding +2 extra to the item + 500 GP?) and Dragoncatch Guisarme (without the +1 bane part, 5000 GP?).


Status:
Warlord 9 HP 251/251 | AC 46 | T 29 | FF 38 | F +33 | R +34 | W +32 | Init +11 | Per +32 | SR 28

"9) The cannibalized item loses ALL of its enchantments within minutes or starting the ritual. There are no partial enchantments left. "

Let's say the party finds a +1 Flaming Longsword. The party Ifrit says, "I need a +1 back-up weapon in case I'm disarmed, but the flaming doesn't do anything for me cause it doesn't stack with my natural abilities."

Does that mean you can't just drain away the Flaming part for CV and leave the +1 Longsword for the party ifrit?


Female Kitsune HP 60/60 CP 7/7 PP 16/16 LP 8/8
Stats:
AC/Touch/Flat/CMD 18/17/11/25 | Fort/Ref/Will +14/+17/+14 | Init +09
Brd/Smn/Pal 4//War 1
Trained Skills:
+22: Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Wind +20: Dance +15: Linguistics, Paint, Alchemy +13: Disguise +11: K(Pla, Rel), Spellcraft, +9: Stealth +8: K(Arc, Dun, Eng, Nat), Perception, SM, Swim

Makoto, as a follower of Shelyn, will never utilize this route. :)


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

Even with evil magic items?


**INACTIVE - SPECIAL** Mind Flayer "Male" Adult
STATS:
Tristalt, L6 | HP:78/78 | AC:32(34)/T:32(34)/FF:32(34)/HLP:18(20) | Init:+12 | Prcptn:+13/15/16(+DS/TF) | F:+8/R:+11/W:+9, SR:17 | CMB:+12/14, CMD:+26/28 | Spd:50' | AR:6/9, Ki:8/8
MORE STATS:
Hero Pts:3/3 | SP1:6/6 | SP2:5/5 | SP3:3/3 | +4/8 AC - Spells | +2 SV Traps/Death Magic/Enchantments | Auto-stable
Illia- wrote:
Does that mean you can't just drain away the Flaming part for CV and leave the +1 Longsword for the party ifrit?

Personally, I think Special Abilities should be drain first since a weapon needs to have at least +1 Enchantment before you can add special abilities. And if this is the case, perhaps crafters or whomever can suck Unholy or whatever evil special abilities out of a weapon, then hand the still enchanted weapon to a crafter to add new abilities such as holy? I am guessing that will work?

CT?


Status:
Warlord 9 HP 251/251 | AC 46 | T 29 | FF 38 | F +33 | R +34 | W +32 | Init +11 | Per +32 | SR 28

I'd think you should be able to drain anything you want, as long as the weapon remains legal, which, in this case means at least +1.


Female Derro (Summoner/Barbarian/Alchemist)
Stats Xanya:
Ablative(30)| Init:+10 | HP:124/124 | AC:33 T:23 FF:28 | DR 2/- | F:+16 R:+14 W:+16 (+2 vs posion/spells/SLA) | Perc:+9 | SR:12 | Rage:17/17 | Channel: 7/7
Stats Cryxial:
| Init:(-)+1 | HP:70/70 | AC:30 T:20 FF:27 | F:+10 R:+9 W:+5 (Evasion, +2 vs sleep, stun & paralysis) | Perc:+8

It makes sense that you can only drain it all or nothing too though...


From the way I read it, you can drain an item partway, but the instant you start draining it, it loses all its enhancement bonuses. You can just cannibalize it further for "magic essence" or whatever


HP 51/51 ► AC 22/20 (22/20T 17/15FF) ► F +6, R +10/+8, W +8 ► Init +14/+6 ► Perc +13/11(+8 Birgitte), Darkvision 60', LLV ► F Kitsune

I think you're adding complexity for no real gain, when in a lot of ways it's simpler to just say:

"There's a <treasure type> worth 8000 gold in the hoard, tell me what it is! Oh and there's some potions, scrolls, and miscellany that I rolled up on this table, here you go."

That does the same thing of allowing player agency that breaking unwanted things down does, plus it offloads some of the work from you on the preparation side.

I think your SI idea is great, and it can certainly be expanded to gobble up enchantments. Your systems for that look reasonable, I just don't know if you need to overthink it.


Status:
Warlord 9 HP 251/251 | AC 46 | T 29 | FF 38 | F +33 | R +34 | W +32 | Init +11 | Per +32 | SR 28

Well, Lillianna, sometime's its appropriate for the enemy to have magical items.

The drow queen is gonna want to use her +Number Crossbow Of Evil Drowness on you. But after the combat, it's not like that crossbow disappears. CT is trying to implement a system where there's a better story than "you sell it to someone and they give you money and you enhance your items" for when you would normally do just that, with the slight bonus of added mechanical convenience.


Male Aasimar Class Cleric 15/Paladin 15/Bard 15| AC 24 T 19 FF 18 | HP 210/210 | F +22 R +23 W +24 | Init +5 | Perc +26

It looks like a good system to me. It is basically avoiding the middleman so to speak. No need to find a town to sell the item and thus you can speed up putting "gold" enchants on the signature items.

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