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@Tycoon: Here is where the current iteration of this game started; I believe we had one aborted start, a reboot at level 2, and then lost Mr. Hebeme during the current character creation.
There's more to say, but I'll stop there and wait for questions.
Good to be here. Is this the proper character creation guideline? And we currently most need a front liner? I’ve already read over the Player’s Guide, so I’ve got some ideas.
Pleasure to meet you all, my compatriots!
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Good to be here. Is this the proper character creation guideline?
Yes, though I think we made some changes in the Discussion thread.
You got it, I’ll do some reading tonight after work. Are we just jumping in on this thread or starting a fresh one for the AP? When do I meet my new allies in arms? Will we be able to explore avenues that may not be explicitly spelled out in the AP, such as becoming public figures? Forgive the barrage of questions.
Also, I have a discord, Trout #7261
Welcome! :) Someone who can actually stand up front would be prime. We should have some good caster support.
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Are we just jumping in on this thread or starting a fresh one for the AP?
Planning here, since a lot of the info is already here. Actual play will be in a new thread.
When do I meet my new allies in arms?
Soon as the adventure starts, though what exactly that means depends on how quickly I finish creating some NPCs. I would like to do some stuff before the book begins, IF I can prep in time.
Will we be able to explore avenues that may not be explicitly spelled out in the AP, such as becoming public figures?
In general, absolutely. In specific, spy/public figure is a risky combination; enter at your own risk.
Also, I have a discord, Trout #7261
Friend request sent.
CRB and Ultimate Equipment are the only Unrestricted books, correct? The rest are by permission only?
Someone who can actually stand up front would be prime. We should have some good caster support.
I want to contribute as much as I can, especially as someone jumping into another group. That said, intrigue and social encounters have always, always been my favorite part of Pathfinder. War for the Crown is my ideal AP, and things like social combat sound like what I’ve always wanted. I’d like to fill whatever needs we have, while still being able to fully enjoy WftC; I don’t see myself getting another chance to play it, so I’d like to make this count. Most typical front-liners just don’t have the skills or abilities I’d want to really enjoy myself.
All that considered, would a Monster Tactician be appropriate, welcome or allowed? If so, would summons be “enough” of a front liner? I would also be posted up at front lines, albeit built more for spells and intrigue and relying on summons for damage. The Player’s Guide for WftC recommended Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive in Social Combat, which I do want to actively participate in. However I also want to fill in some holes in our skills (Falx is no longer here, correct? I’m looking at the skills checklist), as well as be able to protect from the front line.
This was something I whipped up last night as an example of what I had in mind. It isn’t finished, but it gives an idea of what I had in mind. All of it would need permission and this is very much just a pitch idea. I’ve played Summoners in the past, and am intimately familiar with the rules surrounding them, but I’m also aware of the animosity some players have towards them. This particular Inquisitor gives up Judgment and Bane for summoning and intrigue abilities respectively. All of it is Hardcover, except Monster Tactician which is from a companion book.
I do already have a personality and backstory in mind, but I’d rather not fully invest in anything until I see how much wiggle room I have. Do forgive my long posts, I typically check Paizo twice a day, and try to make my posts count.
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CRB and Ultimate Equipment are the only Unrestricted books, correct? The rest are by permission only?
Correct, although most stuff will be approved. The big exception is Occult Adventures.
Most typical front-liners just don’t have the skills or abilities I’d want to really enjoy myself . . . . The Player’s Guide for WftC recommended Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive in Social Combat, which I do want to actively participate in.
Relevant and Important Post. "Social Encounter" is incredibly misleading. A barbarian, tactician, or lore warden would tie you for most useful party member during social encounters. A ranger would be the best PC.
All that considered, would a Monster Tactician be appropriate, welcome or allowed?
When asking for approval, please include links. There is a lot of duplicate terminology to complicate searches, plus the fact that "The clearer you make things for me, the more time and energy I have to be creative for you." But yes, it would be allowed.
If so, would summons be “enough” of a front liner?
Probably not. There are other challenges, but the biggest is that your DPS becomes a finite and diminishing resource. The enemy will be raking his claws and thrusting his spear long after you run out of summons.
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Alright, I think I’ve got someone in mind who I can get behind.
This is Cassius Macero. Mechanically he is a Talden Rondelero Duelist archetype, a fighter that focuses on using a Falcata and Buckler in tandem. He uses nonlethal damage when possible, and demoralizes his opponents with attacks. I tried to give him a decent coverage of skills for a fighter. He will pick up Falcata proficiency at level 2, as that is when the archetype comes online.
Thematically, he is a common-born citizen of Taldor who sincerely wants to see the city be better. As a worshipper of Sarenrae he has a deep set belief in the idea of redemption, and projects that onto himself, the nation, and his enemies. While not outwardly obvious, he has fey heritage in his bloodline that can at times give him uncharacteristic violent urges. These occur typically in times of stress, and are usually followed by feelings of shame and disappointment.
All of his feats, traits, etc. need permission, and they are all linked on his character profile. He hasn’t purchased any gear as of yet, I will let that wait for the moment. I am still fairly in the dark as to exactly where we’ll be beginning in the AP, or what our character relationships are, so while that is as of yet unwritten I would love to sink my teeth into crafting backstory and motivation.
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Rondelero Duelist approved
Power Attack legal
Enforcer approved
Hurtful declined
Embrace of the Dark Fey approved*
Heart of the Fey legal (I think I changed the guidelines somewhere to allow all racial alternatives on AoN)
Bonus Feat legal
Blade of Mercy approved
Bruising Intellect legal
Taldan Patriot legal
Sentimental approved **
*Be warned, this is the type of backstory that gives the GM license to have fun at your character's expense.
**This needs to be worked into the personality.
Here’s a bit of a curveball. What are your thoughts on Variant Multiclassing?
Relevant rules snip: A character who selects this option doesn't gain feats at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels, but instead gains class features from her secondary class as described on Table: Multiclass Character Advancement.
Typically this is a weak option, but it does occasionally lead to some neat combos. You can Eldritch Knight without dipping into a martial by VMCing into Oracle and grabbing the Revelation that makes you proficient in all Martial Weapons for example. That particular one isn’t what I’m looking at, but I am having just a bit of trouble making a front-liner I’m content with, and might see some potential here.
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Here’s a bit of a curveball. What are your thoughts on Variant Multiclassing?
I would be okay with this, but since it is an entirely new system rather than just one specific option, I don't want to rule without feedback from the whole table. I could see this leading to an existing PC getting reworked from scratch, and don't want to just dump that on an unsuspecting player.
How does everyone else feel about replacing normal multi-classing with this alternate system?
How does everyone else feel about replacing normal multi-classing with this alternate system?
I wasn't sure if you'd be using them in tandem, or as a replacement, so I'd like to make this clear to my fellow players. If you have even an inkling of desire to multiclass, veto this. I was looking at it to gain a bonus to some Social Skills and that's it. The utility of standard multiclassing dwarfs this and I don't want someone else's character to make a sacrifice for a relatively minor bonus to myself.
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Here is a slightly updated version of Cassius. The changes are as follows:
Rondelero Duelist was dropped for Mutation Warrior; hopefully Cassius can work with Tiber on making some juicy mutagens.
Variant Multiclass Inquisitor is included, but I am in no way cementing it in without approval from my allies.
Hurtful and Power Attack were dropped for Skill Focus (Intimidate) and Possessed Hand. While Possessed Hand is obviously mechanically useful, it's dripping with flavor that can mesh well with the flavor from Embrace of the Dark Fey and helps soften the blow of one-handing a weapon for flavor purposes.
Bonus Feat was dropped for Focused Study.
VMC is fine with me! I'll be single classing alchemist the whole way.
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Let's officially go with variant multi-classing instead of normal. Prestige classes are still allowed, as those are different from multi-classing (at least in my mind, if not the actual rules). Just keep in mind, the feat replacements of VMC still apply even after/during prestige class levels.
Mutation Warrior approved
Possessed Hand declined*
*This could be an option for casters, but definitely not for a non-caster.
@Tycoon,
Hey I got caught up and read how interested you are in this AP... and I can see the front-liner/martial slot is hanging you up a bit.
Would you be interested in swapping into the 'Divine Caster' role? Basically our healer slot for a 4 man. I'd be willing to change into the front-liner position if that helps you with a character you'd really like
@Tycoon,
Hey I got caught up and read how interested you are in this AP... and I can see the front-liner/martial slot is hanging you up a bit.Would you be interested in swapping into the 'Divine Caster' role? Basically our healer slot for a 4 man. I'd be willing to change into the front-liner position if that helps you with a character you'd really like
I would graciously accept that offer, if and only if you also can make a character you sincerely enjoy in that slot. We all need to be playing someone we really like.
Lets go for it. I'll be happy playing anything and my roots in pathfinder are "hit thing with big stick" so I can always get behind that :)
@GM, I'm going to wipe Avery off our Skills Spreadsheet, and after some time tonight, start putting ideas back in there
Lets go for it. I'll be happy playing anything and my roots in pathfinder are "hit thing with big stick" so I can always get behind that :)
@GM, I'm going to wipe Avery off our Skills Spreadsheet, and after some time tonight, start putting ideas back in there
You got it, and much appreciation my man. Were you still planning on going Bluff and Diplomacy?
Were you still planning on going Bluff and Diplomacy?
Lets stay in touch, and keep working on skills between us. I would like to go this direction, but we also need to cover as many skills as possible, without stretching too thin. I don't want either of the other guys to have to make any changes at this point
Very top of the discussion page, there's a link to our "skills sheet"
We may have some overlap. The archetype/initial character I have in mind is very much a socialite, despite also being a ranger, but if you end up more charisma based than me (likely) I may need to adjust
For playing a Divine Caster in an intrigue based campaign, my mind immediately snaps to an Asmodean Advocate. They cover social skills and also give more effective skill ranks per level, however they are absolutely focused on Bluff and Diplomacy. If you have a desire to play a socialite, I don’t want to go this route.
My line on discord is always open as well, if you wanted to shoot messages and hash it out.
@Tycoon, if you have a chance to post some details about your build, that may help me
Guessing by the looks of the archetype, you're going to be heavily Wisdom based, but that also covers Bluff and Diplomacy well
Will you have any natural charisma? Asking for other things we know we need, primarily Disguise, which I believe I could cover in my concept... would just need to burn a trait to get it
Secondarily, I don't have a ton of experience with evil gods/characters.... just to follow, this means you'll channel negative, and spontaneously convert to inflict, yes?
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Here is yet another update, the name and avatar will change should this be approved.
Via Pact Servant I play a LG Cleric of Asmodeus, to channel positive energy and have access to spontaneous cure light wounds. His focus is on face skills and casting.
That said, should all of this be approved, I have a feat slot open I haven't been able to settle on. I could pick up Antagonize to pseudo-demoralize with Diplomacy. Take a generic, yet useful option like Toughness or Improved Initiative. I'm open to suggestions and feedback on what the party needs.
At level 3, I'm planning on Sacred Summons. Asmodeus offers unique summons at Spell Levels 2, 4, and 5 that all give access to extra summons with subtypes that exactly match my Aura. As yet another alternative, I could grab that as my level 1 feat and take a look at some VMC options.
Long story short, I've got a mostly complete build that requires approval, and would love some group feedback both on what I have picked out.
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Here is yet another update, the name and avatar will change should this be approved.
Via Pact Servant I play a LG Cleric of Asmodeus to not only play a lawyer fighting for a good cause for once, but also to channel positive energy and have access to spontaneous cure light wounds. His focus is on face skills and casting.
That said, should all of this be approved, I have a feat slot open I haven't been able to settle on. I could pick up Antagonize to pseudo-demoralize with Diplomacy. I could also take a generic, yet useful option like Toughness or Improved Initiative. I'm open to suggestions and feedback on what the party needs.
At level 3, I'm planning on Sacred Summons. Asmodeus offers unique summons at Spell Levels 2, 4, and 5 that all give access to extra summons with subtypes that exactly match my Aura. I could pick up Spell Focus (Conjuration) as my other 1st level feat with the intention of grabbing Augment Summoning at Level 5 if I wanted to put emphasis on summons. As yet another alternative, I could grab Sacred Summons as my 1st level feat and take a look at some VMC options, as those give up my 3rd level feat.
Long story short, I've got a mostly complete build that requires approval, and would love some group feedback on what I have picked out.
@all,
I will try to get a build in by tonight. But, right now, looking at Dandy Ranger, Str16, Dex14, Con14, Int10, Wis10, Cha14. Unless the party has objections, I'm going to end up doubling into Bluff, Diplomacy (not as high as Cassius, but pretty decent if the target is Taldan AND humanoid) but will also cover Disguise, Intimidate, and was thinking of going Intimidate build. I'm open to suggestions on combat role, however. To start I'm thinking sword and board but I don't think I want to make my combat kit that complicated, and have feats available for skill focuses, etc. Level 1 was going SF: Disguise and that will play into my character.
Skills sheet has been updated, holes are in red (currently)
Tiber/Zenizar, thoughts?
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@GM
Question: Would you approve re-skinning the well-known Helpful trait, or would I *have* to be raised by Halflings? I'm aware of the +3 version, but would prefer the +4. Would be worked into my backstory
Approvals:
Story Feat - Nemesis.
OK! Build is up, if I missed anything let me know, and still open to input/changes from the group
Pending approvals, GM I will send you some backstory; for now I actually plan to keep the name
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I have concerns about Disable Device. If no one is taking Disable, then I assume that no one is getting Trapfinding. I can not heal and I can not fix traps, so if you aren't dealing with traps you better be planning on offsetting the damage and I had better not be the one taking that damage or this is going to be a short campaign.
Climb and Swim will be a short term problem. Trapfinding/Disable Device are going to become bigger issues over time, not smaller.
Now if someone has a plan to multiclass into it or get it later somehow, fine let me know.
If this task is going to be handed to me I will need to rebuild. This character is not close to the dex or perception to pick up traps as a side hustle.
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I can grab Additional Traits and pick up Disable Device for +7 before ACP. I’m comfortable VMCing into Rogue to gain Trapfinding as well. If no one else grabs it, I can live dangerous and drop my STR to 7 to jump my Int to 14, then drop K. Religion to grab Perception and Disable Device. Losing my 3 and 7th level feat is a small price to pay for filling a vital role. A shame gaining sneak attack dice would be wasted though.
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Here is a final product, all of which would require permission, that picks up Disable Device, Perception, and gains Trapfinding at Level 3. With MW Thieves Tools and Guidance Disable Device has a total of +10 before ACP. It uses my 1st, 3rd, and 7th level feats to achieve it all, so I’m toeing the line of being a dedicated skill monkey, but as a full caster and being in an intrigue campaign, I think it would perform fine.
Was Falx originally covering DD?
Either way, I'm also a half-way decent candidate for Rogue VMC and sneak dice wouldn't be wasted. I would get Evasion twice, but I could potentially ask GM if that can be re-trained
Fits my character idea forming in my head, too. Cassius, if this doesn't make sense, don't feel pigeonholed into it, before we all examine our possibilities.
Only thing losing the feats would do to me, would remove the idea of any feat intensive combat role, which I'm fine with losing. Out of everyone, I bet I have the most feats to spare. I can take 2-hander chain from Ranger feats and get free Power attack and the rest is gravy, and just focus on hitting things and having a decent AC.
Only downside here, is I wouldn't *see* the traps as easily as Cassius would. Our DD would end up roughly the same. Moving skills around is easier than me having a 0 wis, so my perception isn't going to be remarkable
@GM,
When I get evasion the 2nd time from VMC at level 11 (i naturally get it at 9) curious if it can be re-trained?
Working on slight mods to get DD trained now
For character reasons, I may lean into DD hard, actually... looking at chaning SF: Disguise to SF: Disable, and become a dandy thief!
IME, disable and perception need to be high, but not always from the same character. The disabler can't go off on their own then, however, we can just stick together then (obviously until the GM has had enough and splits us up :P).
Tiber has a decent perception mod already and I intend on keeping it up too. To me, it is one of those skills that won't hurt having multiple characters investing in.
Theoretically, I could retool into a ranged alchemist and take trapfinding via an archetype. Trapfinding and disable are cheapest for me to get (compared to a cleric and a ranger), BUT that would mean Avery and Cassius would both have to be melee capable since Tiber would never willingly do so as a ranged alchemist. Both easily fit into his current backstory, so no worries there.
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Pact Servant approved*
Antagonize approved
Sacred Summons approved**
*First, this only applies to your alignment. Your aura would still be lawful evil. Second, you must be consistent across all applicable choices. Any time the class description says "A good cleric (or one who worships a good deity)", you must base it off your alignment rather than your deity's. Third, per your backstory idea in Discord, and to make sense of your extensive travels, I would require the character to be at least middle aged, including the ability score bonuses and penalties.
**Playing a lawful good cleric of Asmodeus would prevent you from using this feat.
Nemesis approved
Additional Traits legal (or at least should have been)
Concilator approved***
Elemental Familiar approved
Observant pending ****
Lamellar keep in mind that this is rare in Taldor, i.e. more expensive and attracts more attention
***You would need to fulfill the prerequisite in game before being able to benefit from this feat. But yes, you may choose it at creation, and it just won't be in effect right away.
****You would need to be a member of the Pathfinder Society and its relevant faction, and work that into your backstory.
Evasion Read both texts carefully. One may say that you get improved evasion, if you already have evasion. But yes, using the retraining rules on one of the abilities is a possibility.
Disable Device I do require that the disabler be able to perceive the trap, though not necessarily the first person to find it. At a practical level, this means that it may take longer in game; and if Avery's take 20 result is only 29 Perception, he will not be able to disable a trap that is DC 30+ to perceive.
Evasion both my version, and rogue, don't say that a new source grants improved evasion.
Plus, I already get improved evasion at 16 anyway. Looks like I will have to re-train.
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To confirm, I had intended to use Sacred Summons to match my aura, hence bringing up using Asmodeus unique summons which have a LE subtype. The rules for Alignment spells is that you can’t cast a spell opposed to your deity’s so I could cast them fine. The entire purpose was to use Sacred Summons to summon using my aura, cast spells that match my deitiy’s alignment, but as a Good Cleric I would still use positive energy.
Essentially just confirming making Sacred Summons unusable is a matter of preference, not RAW.
@Avery, my Domain (which I can’t swap out as per my archetype) gives Disguise Self as my 1st Domain Level Spell, so that works out well enough.
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The rules for Alignment spells is that you can’t cast a spell opposed to your deity’s so I could cast them fine.
Incorrect.
Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Spell Lists. Her alignment, however, may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see chaotic, evil, good, and lawful spells. A cleric must choose and prepare her spells in advance.
Casting prohibition is off your alignment, not your aura.
my Domain (which I can’t swap out as per my archetype) gives Disguise Self as my 1st Domain Level Spell, so that works out well enough.
Sounds good, Zenizar also has Disguise Self, but we're probably going to need long term disguises sometimes, so I plan to fully vet that skill. We were given a strong impression someone needed this skill
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In hindsight . . .
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions.
That means your build would be prohibited from casting evil and good spells, as well as chaotic.