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And I'm back. Baby Aleksander was born on Monday morning; he's clocking in at a healthy 8 pounds 12 ounces, and both he and his mom are doing well. We got home last night and are currently juggling catching up on sleep and getting his healthcare paperwork in order. Thank FSM I have next week off, as it is Phoenix' HS spring break.
2010 was a pretty packed year, wasn't it? Four of us - Ithers, Aubrey, me and Mothers - had kids? Thankfully Erin avoided all the health complications she had last time.
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Our boy was early 2011, just a little behind you guys. We got married in 2010 though. :) What a coincidence that of all the people on the boards at that time so many of us who started in these two games were at roughly the same age or place along the path.
Best wishes to you and Erin as you settle in and figure out how it all works now.
What a coincidence that of all the people on the boards at that time so many of us who started in these two games were at roughly the same age or place along the path.
It is interesting. And I have always found it so interesting how this crew is distributed around the globe. As for my place along the path, let's just say I was a very late bloomer joining the boards - I had hit those milestones some time earlier...
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Just a heads up, I will be away in China for about two weeks from the 1st of April. During that time I’m not sure how much internet access I will have, how much time I will have to get on, and whether I’ll be able to get access to Paizo; I’m pretty sure I won’t be able to get access to Google Docs for maps etc. Towards the end of the trip I’ll be in Hong Kong which might mean improved access. I’ll try to keep up with my pbp games if I can, but please NPC my character if required to keep things moving along.
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Huh. I'm not familiar with the next part at all, but with that puppeteer move it seems like we were taking the first step toward getting on a path that leads toward the actual BBEG. This one has always felt a little like sometimes I'm missing the connections between parts that make a linear plot, but I can never tell if it is just because I have forgotten details along the way.
I'm excited to be finally breaking into book 5, I'm just a little busy right now. My new schedule here has allowed a lot more family time, but less personal time and I'm trying to work out a window where I have time to keep up every day. I'll figure it out though.
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So Vatters, what is it that's the problem? We have departed fairly extensively from the AP as written in the past, but this last bit was fairly necessary for Karzoug to reveal his hand and once in Jorgenfist we followed the scenario fairly as-is. When did you start getting bored, and why? Which bits do you like? And what do others think?
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I looked at the description and see that it is mostly a dungeon crawl. There are some things that other pbps have done to speed up dungeon crawl play which can grind the speed of pbp down to a trickle otherwise. We already know we have a tendency toward that with doors causing a near shut down while we wait for someone else to do things so we might want to look into that.
Off the top of my head, what I remember is establishing a standard procedure for doors/trap checking that can just be assumed to rinse/repeat unless someone interjects. Also would anyone care if whoever was available first rolled init for all the PCs? We typically spend 1-2 days for that every time. I've seen a lot of other pbps where they just save the dice code for everyone's init and just copy/paste it to group roll.
I'll take some time later to see what else people are doing for dungeon crawl efficiency.
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The next section is basically a dungeon crawl. To be honest, I have mixed feelings about it myself. The last big dungeon crawl we did as a group (not in the this game) was Gath's Mausoleum in the Eberron game, but that was my design and just made sure it was full of weird stuff - people seemed to enjoy that, so far as I could tell, and we mostly made it through the two-and-a-half years it took to stagger through it. Plus Gath didn't really believe in doors.
Our posting rate is a lot slower than it used to be, and I'm not sure that really suits combing through a load of rooms, quite a few of which will be empty. Plus I'm not sure that Vatters is necessarily talking about being worried about dungeon-crawling efficiency, possibly more the idea of spending a lot of time in one in the first place. I dunno, perhaps he can clarify and we can debate as a group.
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Yeah, I got that his issue with the AP begins before and extends beyond the dungeon crawl. But that tangent is all I have as far as helpful advice so far. Enthusiasm is harder to manufacture. It could be possible to go ahead while building in a subplot if there were something that could give a more personal or religious goal for Alwyn.
Also- you've been running three characters in this game for a while now. That can't be helping with burnout.
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Dungeon crawls can be OK - the Gath dungeon was pretty cool. Having said that, I'm not looking forward to years of slogging through the upcoming module.
At some level, I'm burnt out. I'm bored with beating up giants, I find the whole sin-based BBEG setup to be mostly dumb and, while the upcoming dungeon can be seen as a loving tribute to classics likeThe temple of elemental evil, it only feels like a lazy rip-off to me. Xin-Shalast looks much better, though that too has some issues.
Personally, I would suggest that instead of chugging through Module 5 as written, we instead turn to Mokmurian's map - i.e. each of the four marked locations has something interesting in it, we find those things and then move on (assemble the key/runelord-killing sword/unique spell/whatever else it might be). This will unfortunately entail a lot of extra GM work.
Finally, it probably doesn't help that I basically play half the party on three hours of sleep per night (stupid baby). Demiarchos is moving on, though, and at some point I'll sleep better.
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OK, I'm open to doing something different. The Module 5 is quite a good dungeon but in many ways it's fairly superfluous - you don't even really need that badly what you get from it to do Xin-Shalast afterwards. So we can do something different - I certainly haven't been burning to do the next module as written, though there are some aspects about it which I can yank and rework, and then throw in some stuff of my own (or rip off other people's stuff, which is what I normally do). If people are cool with that, I can run with that. It also has the benefit that you don't actually know what might happen next.
Also Vatters, take it easy. I've found it quite heavy going lately and I know you've got a new baby and a new job, and I sometimes feel more dread than joy when contemplating the games (not often, mind, but when you are tired getting your enthusiasm and inspiration going can be tough). I'm glad you let me know that things were becoming a chore so we can try and adjust.
Also, dare I say it - should we retire Hudak? I don't think Heathy is ever coming back and while Old Baldy is handy in a fight it shouldn't be at the expense of enjoying the game. What do others think?
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Probably we should retire Hudak. I did call out to Heathy some months ago just to see if he would be interested coming by to cameo once we got to Mokmurian, but never heard back. So I assume he probably isn't going to pop in any time soon. We will have to alter the way we play without a full bab character, but honestly, Illes makes up the difference between 3/4 and full bab. Between Alwyn, Camlo and Illes we can probably figure it out. We might need to retool a little but it will definitely up the challenge level. Illes hasn't closed to strike in melee more than a few times after the first few levels, because it was never necessary with Hudak just cutting them down left and right.
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As far as changing module 5, that wouldn't bother me at all. Having just found those maps I would assume that those locations would be the next step. Really it would require some explanation if we just ignored them to move on to something else.
Also regarding downsizing, Sef can recruit for us when we need it and Illes too.
I have idea what the next module looks like. I read it when they shipped my copy and couldn't pretend to tell you anything about it. I prefer to play it that way - it avoids dissonance when I have a creative game master in addition to avoiding spoilers.
Seconding the vote regarding Vattnisse sharing his concerns - I'm glad you said something, too. I'm fine with retiring Hudak - I would offer to play the role and give V a break, but I'm not exactly setting the world on fire with my posting rate myself. And who can replicate the personality Heathy had given the big guy? Group initiative rolls are fine if that's something we want to try.
I may need some help if Sef is going to become a summoner or melee combatant. She's far from made for either. I think this fight is the first time I've felt like she contributed significantly in a battle, so maybe I should be rethinking tactics, anyway.
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In the last combat Sef used those really nasty Enchantment spells to shut down the opposition. Those spells tend to be a bit binary - they either work or they don't - and in the past she was unlucky. I think if she sticks with messing with people's minds with those Enchantment spells I think that'll probably work best.
In suspect that success for the party without will be making sure you can play to your respective strengths. Illes is a buffer and support caster and combatant, in true bardic jack-of-all-trades style. Elisile can clearly cover the ranged attack, plus some support wizardry, and Alwyn the close and personal (though possibly pimping his AC a bit more - most of his defensive gear is just +1 so that should be fairly cheap to achieve - and looking at his spell selection). Camlo is the rogue flanking partner. And Sef is battlefield control with her voodoo mind magic.
I think the party might want to look at their equipment, though, since it might be a bit underpowered for what is to come. I'll stick it in the game thread, but there are some dwarven smiths who were kidnapped who could maybe help with that, since item creation doesn't seem to be the party's strong point.
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I’m not feeling burnt out with this game, but then a recent four year hiatus might help account for that. I have no particular objection to the next adventure (or for that matter to doing something else instead), mainly due to remembering almost nothing about it – like PR I probably haven’t read it since I first got it, and 100+ AP books later they all tend to blur together a bit. Not being memorable may not exactly be a recommendation I guess. I seem to vaguely recall a dungeon (or part of a dungeon) filled with succubi or alu-fiends or something … we should keep that bit …
In all seriousness long dungeons can be a drag in face to face play let alone pbp. If Aubrey has the time and inclination to mix things up I’m certainly good with that – the dungeons in the Eberron game have all been great.
I can certainly understand being burnt out and time poor – definitely been there. After the first kid you think you know what to expect, but the lack of sleep and extra work are still a system shock.
I agree that it is probably time to retire Hudak. I know we’ll miss him on the front line, but we’ll find a way to manage. With the right buff spells and (as suggested) some arms and armour upgrades, Alwyn can probably make a good front-line fighter. We may need to invest in some more cure wands for the back row in that case. It’s funny, I originally envisaged Elisile as a secondary melee combatant but she’s rarely been in melee at least since Dravite left and she became the party’s ranged attacker. She’s pretty good in that role now, but with the right spells (and maybe an AC boosting item) she could probably still do melee. Having said that, she might be better off summoning monsters to help in melee and otherwise sticking to archery and spells.
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Re magic item distribution and the robe of runes; no, somehow Elisile doesn’t have an Int boosting item yet, so this could be quite useful for her. I think early on Vethran would have had first dibs on Int headbands and Elisile has stayed competitive intelligence-wise thanks to a fairly high starting score and then pumping all level-based stat boosts into it. Having said that, I’m willing to negotiate on this one. The robe takes the ‘body’ slot, which is different to the ‘armour’ slot – apparently you can wear both. And the robe’s ability to grant a bonus to save DCs after using the spell recollection thing might be more useful to Sef, given that Elisile rarely (with her current spell list anyway) directly targets enemies with her spells. I really do need to improve her spell list, so having a good amount of downtime before we start the next adventure if possible would be great.
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We have several years worth of loot to distribute/sell because we haven't been anywhere to buy or sell stuff since we last set out from Sandpoint. Up to this final showdown it isn't so much, but I'll get it together so we can do it all at once.
I like the new look for Camlo. He looks less innocent and more like someone who might be on the run for past misdeeds in Magnimar or wherever.
And Sef- yeah, we aren't going to forget that throw down for a while. You struggled with saves in the lesser fights, but apparently you were saving them up to snip Mokmurian's balls right off the bat in the final showdown. That was pretty, pretty badass.
If Elisile is more built for ranged right now, no need to rework that I think. We'll have Alwyn and Camlo in melee, and Illes can be in melee by round 2 or so. I imagine Illes will be mostly providing Camlo constant flanking, defensive casting as necessary and attempting melee after casting. Three out of five in melee is probably fine and El's ranged game was damn good just now.
I was getting ready to pop him with the Feeblemind the first time we met him, but felt like I needed to get Hudak back in the fight first. I was tickled that I had the spells necessary to deliver the touch spell at range so he could fly and ignore the reversed gravity - but it took me out of offense for two rounds. It might not have been the best choice there, but it sure made the last battle epic!
Another +2 on saves up to four times a day if I manage the robe's abilities well could be pumping my enchantments up as much as a DC 25 Will save for the high-level stuff. Effectively DC 29 for feeblemind vs a spellcaster. I'd better hope we don't run into someone with the same trick up their sleeve - it would be most humbling.
Oh, and Sef's going to need scribing materials and time to expand her repertoire. And to figure out how to cast more spells in a day. Maybe she can work on scrolls if we have enough downtime.
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I won’t swear to it, but I think I’m relatively up to date; I have us at 175,951 after that last fight (still a way off 12th level). Aubrey bumped up the xp reward after the fight with the lamias to get us to 11th level (so our totals at that point would have been 155,000). Since then I have xp for the rune covered giant; the stone golem; the headless lord; the forge fiend; the library door; the hounds of tindalos; and that last fight with Mokmurian and co. Can anyone think of anything I’ve missed?
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As for strategies to speed up gameplay for the time-poor (in dungeons or elsewhere); I’m in another game where we roll initiative once for the party rather than individually as ithers suggested (each character still adds their own modifier); it seems to work relatively well at cutting out that 2 day lag between calling for initiative and actually starting the fight. You do tend to end up with PCs clustered together around one area of the initiative chart and bad guys at another, I don’t know if that’s a good or bad thing.
One thing that two day lag is actually good for from the GM’s point of view (I’ve been known to do it and I suspect Aubrey does too at times), is it allows the GM time to construct the encounter, draw the map, stat the bad guys etc. So there may not necessarily be a time saving if this still needs to happen.
The other thing that I’ve seen done in a lot of games to speed up combat is that anyone posts their actions in any order (not necessarily sticking to initiative order) and then the GM narrates the turn in order at the end. This can speed things up, but it is an extra layer of work for the GM and potentially for the players too (with lots of ‘if/then’ statements). It can tend to cut down on strategy, since from turn to turn a player is never quite sure what the allies who act ahead of them have actually done or where they are standing. I’m not a huge fan of this method, but it’s a potential option if we wanted to try to speed things up in combat.
As for a standard strategy to deal with doors in dungeons, we’ve spoken about this before, we may have even used it before and then stopped somewhere along the way; I think it’s a good idea and I suggest we work it out and implement it.
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I suggest it is something like this upon coming to a door:
Camlo search for traps (+20) with Elisile assisting (+18). If there is a trap, Camlo attemps to disarm it (+33) unless the risk appears too high or it seems like dispel magic would be a better option. Elisile then listens at the door (+18) with Camlo assisting (+15).
With traps disarmed or hopefully non-present, Camlo checks if the door is locked. If so he attempts to pick the lock (+28) unless it seems like a knock spell or similar would be a better option. Then Camlo opens the door, with Alwyn positioned to move in first.
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Here is a list of all the treasure (as far as I’m aware) since I re-joined the game during the troll fight. Where it has been discussed (or is a no-brainer) I have noted treasure allocation so far as relevant. If I have missed anything, let me know.
There is likely other treasure from the earlier parts of this chapter of the AP, I will assume that Elisile will not take a share of this earlier treasure (unless there is an item that would suit her that no one else wants).
[u]Treasure List[/u]
Alwyn’s Reward
- Demiarchos’ Bile (Alwyn)
General Looting
- Mokmurian’s books and lab (worth 1500gp but not easily portable)
- 12,000gp
- 1,100pp
- necklace worth 4000gp (giant sized?)
- ivory runestones worth 1,400gp
- scroll of Contact Other Plane (wizard 5)
- map with ‘x’s
Galenmir
- potion of gaseous form
- breastplate (large) +2
- light steel shield (large) +1
- heavy pick (large) +3
- cloak of elvenkind
Mokmurian
- wand of bear's endurance (13 charges)
- club (large) + defending ans spell-storing
- bracers of armour +4
- robe of runes (Aura strong transmutation; CL 13th
Slot body; Price 44,000 gp
This robe is made of crimson silk and emblazoned with dozens of spindly Thassilonian runes, each symbolizing a different type of magical effect or syllable of power. Favored by wizards, this robe can provide some benefit to any spellcasting creature. While worn, it grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Intelligence and allows the wearer to recall, as a free action, up to four levels of spells per day that he had prepared and then cast. Each time a spell is recalled and prepared again in this manner, the sudden rush of magical energy infuses the wearer with power—for one round after recalling a spell, the wearer’s spell save DCs and attack rolls for spells gain a +2 enhancement bonus.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, fox’s cunning, limited wish;
Cost 22,000 gp)
- bag of holding type 2
- Mokmurian’s spellbooks, containing all wizard spells in the Core Rulebook up to 7th level (I assume Elisile and Sefyall will share these for study purposes)
Lokansir
- club (huge) +3
Headless Lord
- 2 large sized hatchets (magic?)
- large sized plate mail (magic?)
Lamias
- 2 x +2 flails
- 2 x Headbands of Wisdom +2 (one went to Hudak, one to Elisile)
- 2 x Rings of Protection +2 (one went to Hudak, one to Alwyn)
- grossly illustrated book (worth 500gp)
- scroll of Remove Curse (arcane version, CL 5) (went to Sefyall)
Trolls in furs
- +2 polearms (went as payment to Demiarchos)
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I won’t swear to it, but I think I’m relatively up to date; I have us at 175,951 after that last fight (still a way off 12th level). Aubrey bumped up the xp reward after the fight with the lamias to get us to 11th level (so our totals at that point would have been 155,000). Since then I have xp for the rune covered giant; the stone golem; the headless lord; the forge fiend; the library door; the hounds of tindalos; and that last fight with Mokmurian and co. Can anyone think of anything I’ve missed?
So, I'm at 121089 after the final boss fight. I didn't see any xp for the library door, so it doesn't include that. We are at the Fast XP progression, right?
Actually, now I consider it, we must be on fast progression.
Here are the xp totals I have since the lamias (where we hit 11th):
+ 2050 (rune covered giant)
+ 1,828 (stone golem)
+ 3,733 (headless lord and forge fiend)
+ 985 (library door)
+ 1,475 (Hounds of Tindalos)
+ 10,880 (Mokmurian etc.)
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Looted gear values:
Galenmir:
- breastplate (large) +2 = 2350 gp
- light steel shield (large) +1 = 1160 gp
- heavy pick (large) +3 = 18408 gp
- cloak of elvenkind = 2500 gp or keep
Mokmurian
- club (large) + 1 defending and spell-storing = 18301 gp
Lokansir:
- club (huge) +3 = 18301 gp
Headless Lord:
- 2 large sized hatchets (magic?)
- large sized plate mail (magic?)
Lamias:
- 2 flails +2 = 16616 gp total
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Having a few days grace to flesh out the encounters is quite an important aspect, yes!
The Headless Lord's hatchets are quite fancy magical things - I don't have the details here at work but they are worth a few bob.
I notice Alwyn doesn't have a cloak. I was thinking that Hudak might give him his Cloak of Much Biting as a parting gift, but Alwyn might just prefer a Cloak of Resistance instead. Let me know.
I also assumed we are on the Fast experience track. APs normally assume Medium (we are on Medium for Wrath of the Righteous, but it's the only one - all the other games are Fast) but of course this AP predates all of that in PF.
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Alwyn wears a cloak of charisma I believe?
The cloak of elvenkind would be useful for Camlo (a rogue can never have too high a stealth score) or alternatively Illes could use it to get his stealth to a good level to be another 'stealthy' character where necessary.
Assuming Elisile takes the robe, Sefyall could take the scroll of contact other plane and the wand of bear's endurance (poor substitutes I know). The Bracers of armour +4 could go to Camlo.
The bag of holding is probably 'party treasure' (to hold our other treasure) but I guess we should designate who carries it.