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I am deeply confused by the rules on what can and can't be injected.
The Injection special rule:
This weapon or its ammunition can be filled with a drug, an injury poison, or a medicinal compound.
But wait. Injection Gloves and Needlers have different wording:
A flat cartridge containing an injectable substance (such as a medicinal or poison) is inserted into a slot in the pointer finger of the glove, where it connects with a retractable needle.
This injection gun can be fitted with cartridges containing medicine or poison.
But wait, there's more.
Spell ampoules are injectable magic, where the essence of a magic spell has been condensed into a liquid form and prepared for injection into a creature.
Drugs are normally weaponized by loading a single dose into a weapon with the injection weapon property, such as an injection glove or needler pistol. Drugs can also be slipped into the food or drink of a target, normally requiring both that a character succeed at a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check and that the imbiber fail a separate DC 20 Perception check to notice the change in the drugged food or drink.
Medicinals can be delivered in the same way as drugs, including via a successful attack with a weapon with the injection weapon special property. [...] Poisons are normally weaponized by loading a single dose into a weapon with the injection special property, such as an injection glove or needler pistol. It’s also possible to add a dose of poison to a melee weapon that deals piercing or slashing damage, though this takes a standard action and requires the poison to be in a vial that’s already in hand.
A contact affliction can also be injected like an injury affliction. [...] An ingested affliction is delivered by tricking the intended target into eating or drinking it. [...] An inhaled affliction is delivered the moment a creature that breathes (and isn’t wearing a space suit or suit of armor that filters out such toxins) enters an area containing such an affliction. [...] An injury affliction is delivered through damage to the target, usually via a slashing or piercing kinetic attack dosed with the affliction.
So, questions:
- Can Needler Rifles and Needler Pistols inject drugs, per their Injection special property, or only medicines and poisons, per their own rules?
- Id Moss is ingestion only. Can Needler Rifles and Needler Pistols inject it, per their wording referencing "poisons", or not, per the Affliction rules? Same question about Insanity Mist and Ungol Dust, which are inhalation only, with the caveat that there is no explanation anywhere in the book how you actually hit someone with inhalation poison - we have no generic rules for filling a square or squares with an arbitrary gas.
- Can Injection weapons in general inject contact poisons, per the rules on Afflictions, or only injury ones, per the definition of Injection?
- Medicinals have no listed contraction vector, only the line I listed. Does this mean all of them are vector (Ingested or Injury)?
- Spell Ampoules say they can be injected, and there are contact/injury diseases. Can these be injected by any of the Injection weapons, despite the wording on Injection, and if so, which ones? If not, why do injection gloves say they can load any injectable?
- Hyperleaf and Pesh are ingestion/inhalation vector drugs. Can they be injected anyway, per the rules for Injection, or not, per the rules for Afflictions?
One last item, where I think the least confusion lies, but I want to make sure I cover all my bases:
Serums are vials of magic liquid that you can imbibe as a standard action or carefully trickle down the throat of a helpless or unconscious creature as a full action. Serums are normally 1 ounce of liquid (though it is possible to make serums with larger volumes, these are no more effective than standard serums), and lose potency if they are mixed with any other material.
There's absolutely no indication anywhere in the book that Serums can be injected, so they can't be, right? Definitely ingestion (well, imbibation) only?
I agree and believe that was the intent and that the separate write ups are simply badly worded. There is more than enough inference in the multiple sources you listed to lend credence to the idea that they all where meant to be used in injectable devices. Thats how im playing it in my campaigns anyway. If not for injection pistols and such it seems silly to believe that the only way to use serums and ampules is some native unique injection capsule? Injection is injection the weapons are simply different delivery vehicles.
I agree and believe that was the intent and that the separate write ups are simply badly worded. There is more than enough inference in the multiple sources you listed to lend credence to the idea that they all where meant to be used in injectable devices. Thats how im playing it in my campaigns anyway. If not for injection pistols and such it seems silly to believe that the only way to use serums and ampules is some native unique injection capsule? Injection is injection the weapons are simply different delivery vehicles.
I am 99.99% confident serums cannot be injected - there is absolutely zero rules support for that, as I mentioned. My personal belief matches yours, meaning any Affliction (disease, drug, or poison) which is neither injury nor contact cannot be injected, and hence, neither can Serums, as they are quite explicitly described as ingestion only. I'm least confident about Medicinals, and frankly don't understand how they work - for example, can I dose a melee slashing or piercing weapon with a medicinal, like I can for injury afflictions?
Already had a thread on this one...
I noticed you didn't quote "Darts". Darts are the ammunition listed for needle weapons. Explains what you are asking about kinda well....PG 190:
These light metal shafts each have a pointed tip and a reservoir to hold toxins or appropriate sunstances that are typically liquid or viscous. While most combatants rely on darts to deliver toxins to enemies, particularly desperate or overworked field medics sometimes employ darts to deliver antitoxins, healing serums, and other beneficial drugs across a crowded battlefield. In these cases, medics often practics to improve their aim to ensure that thins stratedgy is effective when employed.So yes to serums, but you still have to damage the opponent to "dose" them with the serum. So like with the needle pistol and a mk 1 healing serum, 1d4 damage and 1d8 healing, so you could do more harm that good.
Plus you still have to hit them. You need to have the shot connect and doing so requires an attack roll against your ally. If you miss, you waste the serum. So that's why the above suggests this is a desperate tactic by medics and those that try it, work to improve their aim.
Get's really messy with the Weapon Specialization, since the extra damage is not optional....
Good call. Now that's even stranger, because it means darts are why we think you can inject serums - not serums or dart throwers, because neither claim they can do so. Can injection gloves inject serums?
I have my GM right now trying to resolve the question of what should happen when I shoot someone with a dart full of caustrol.
So this actually brings up a good point: Darts can also clearly be coated in Acid, as there's an Acid Dart Gun that also uses Darts.
The interesting thing here is that Dart doesn't mention Acids specifically (though perhaps it falls under "Toxins") while it does explicitly mention Serums. No weapon is explicitly given that injects Serums, but the Needler does inject Medicinals and is listed as a weapon for stressed field medics.
Honestly the problem here is that the Needler, Darts and the Injection special rule require further clarification in an FAQ. It appears to come up in threads here a lot, because people don't know how to handle special cases or what the limits really are. Like I'm reading here that some of the poisons we're explicitly pointed toward for use in this weapon are actually inhalation only. And it's not like there are a lot of things on the poison list to begin with, so what exactly are we supposed to use or not use in this gun? DM fiat works fine for casual play, but for organized play people need a more definitive answer and right now there's a lot of contradiction.
Digging this back up because I'm looking into using injectables in Organized Play. Has there been any further discussion or clarification on what exactly is valid to be used for the injection property?