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Hello fellow Pathfinders!
That's my first post in this forum and I am about to create my very first PFS fighter. For this task I need a little help from the more experienced face-smashers and/or belly-gutters here.
Malthus Krieger is a human. That much is certain. He follows a long tradition of other human fighters I had in several other RPGs both online and offline, that were carrying the same name.
I'd like to play him as a type of clever and tactical maneuver/defender fighter with maybe a dash of skull-bashing.
I looked over the Pathfinder fighter (I have experience with DnD 3.5, but they are quite different) and some of the archetypes and I am not sure what I should go for.
I really don't want to lose armor training I and II; the ability to move quickly in heavy armor seems extremely valuable to me, as my experience with fighters is that they often lack mobility when they want to wear the heavy stuff.
I narrowed it down to the Martial Master, the Mobile Fighter and the Unbreakable. Those three seem to represent best what I would like to play. Also I don't want to play some obscure mutation stuff or anything; I want to play a "classical" fighter. Plus the build should be PFS legal and i would prefer the regular books and not some really niche things, because I need to buy the source material.
Concerning gear and tactics I thought about using polearms, because of the reach and combining it with feats like Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise (prerequisite) and combat maneuver feats (Improved Trip and such).
Any advice you'd like to give me is much appreciated! Ability scores, feats, archetypes, tactics and equipment; all that is up for debate.
Thanks in advance!
--Malthus
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Okay I came up with a few more details.
First, though the Martial Master archetype looks pretty flexible, it seems to me that it would be a nightmare in book-keeping. If I read it right, I'd need notes on EVERY possible combat talent and combat talent combination to make good use of his martial flexibility. Also that looks like it would slow down the game speed tremendously, figuring out which talent is best in XY situation. Pass.
So it boils down to either the Mobile Fighter archetype or the Unbreakable archetype. Both have really nice gimmicks and I can't really decide which one works better for the kind of defender/maneuver fighter I have in mind.
Any thoughts or insight on that from people who have experience with fighters?
Ability Scores
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 11
CHA 7
Those are the ability scores I came up with, though i am not sure if I should favor CON over DEX, but DEX would allow me more AoO (with combat reflexes) and up my AC.
Also: I just checked on reach weapons and I realized, I would have 10ft reach, but couldn't attack foes adjacent to me. Wouldn't that become a problem? Or would I just have to "kite" the enemies with 5-foot-steps?
You might want to start with what Materials you have access too.
Honestly, with Advanced weapon training and a few of the newer options, there is nothing wrong with a vanilla fighter (no archetype). I personally am partial to the Mutagen Fighter archetype. I tend to pick a weapon (Focus, specialization, and Improved critical), power attack, Combat reflexes, Cut from the air and Iron will. Grabbing Armored Bravery asap. I take the Favored Class bonus for HP the First 3 Levels then pump it into the Human alternative for +1 to Grapple and Trip CMDs. Seems to work great for me.
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Thank you very much for your advice!
Yes, I thought about going just vanilla fighter, but for that I'd need the Weapon Master Handbook and the Armor Master Handbook... at least if I want to have the interesting options available. No matter how I think about doing it, it looks like I'm going to need about half a dozen books to make the fighter work. Is that normal? Or am I thinking too complicated?
If it was just for some home campaigns, I'd pick whatever I feel like from the SRD, but for PFS it really looks like I'll have to buy, like, three more books. That would be a little over the top to just play one character.
But concerning your advice, maybe I really should just start working with what I have... which would be the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Players Guide. And the Ultimate Magic, but I don't believe there are interesting options for a fighter in there.
Any advice on weapons and tactics?
For the reach dilemma I thought about combining a polearm with a spiked glove, so I could attack adjacent squares. Or are there possibilities to achieve that with a reach weapon?
Possibly you could go Two Weapon Fighter with an appropriate weapon in your main hand, and a whip in your off hand. It soaks up a few feats, but it's pretty well laid out in the CRB. Note the weak, nonlethal damage & that as you advance, it won't even do that to some enemies.
Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
But you could trip a lot of people before they even get to you (one per round as the whip does not threaten). And you could trip someone next to you, then attack them with the sword/whatever. Then you slug him again when he gets up.
Honestly, a human fighter with greatsword or reach weapon is solid
16+2/14/14/12/12/7
1 power attack toughness cleave
2 weapon focus
3 iron will
4 weapon specialization
5 X
6 lunge
7 vital strike?
8 retrain cleave to greater weapon focus and X
9 X
10 X
If using the reach getting combat reflexes early is helpful and just pushes stuff back a bit.
get cleave early with fighter feat and then trade it after it's gotten less useful. pick up vital strike if you want it, it's not my favorite feat, but it's not bad for the times you need to move and hit.
This uses just core I want to say and will do the role fine of hitting things and not dying.
I've ran about 6 reach users in PFS, some I had a bite attack to threaten close, but really none of them ever cared about attacking adjacent. I'd suggest just having a backup morningstar you can pull out if you really need it, but with 5ft before attacks I've not seen reach be an issue.
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I would honestly switch Con and Dex scores- you're a frontliner- having a good health pool is key to surviving. If you wear heavy or medium armor, having a high dex is moot.
I have a Martial Master fighter going through the big Super Dungeon Emerald Spire- and it's not as hard to prepare as you think. Basically, just keep a list of the primary feats you'd use.
I would honestly switch Con and Dex scores- you're a frontliner- having a good health pool is key to surviving. If you wear heavy or medium armor, having a high dex is moot.
I have a Martial Master fighter going through the big Super Dungeon Emerald Spire- and it's not as hard to prepare as you think. Basically, just keep a list of the primary feats you'd use.
Well a fighter level 7 is able to get 3 dex to AC while in full-plate.
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Wow that's a lot of advice, thanks everyone!
@Sir Belmont:
The idea with TWF and a whip sounds neat, but doesn't really fit the image I have in mind. Still, I'm going to keep that in mind, as it sounds like a fun character concept! :)
@Chess Pwn:
Yeah, I thought about going just melee striker. For that I would be particularly drawn to the greatsword, the falchion or the scythe. (the image of a fighter with a scythe is just awesome to me, plus x4 crit multiplier sounds nice)
But the possibility of area control sounds extremely useful for a group. They either have to go around me... or through me. Either they have to lose a round or they get my boot in their backside.
And a backup weapon sounds definitely like a useful plan.
Does anybody know if I can attack with a spiked glove, while still carrying my guisarme (or whatever) in the other hand? This way I wouldn't have to switch weapons all the time.
@Selvaxri:
I thought about the point of survivability too, but i figured i could compensate for the 14 CON with the toughness feat early on. And a higher DEX would help my AC as well as any combat maneuvers I intend to make.
I could try with 14 DEX and try to get an ability enhancing item for that later, but I read PFS is a bit tricky when it comes to wealth by level and you rarely have money to spare. Can anybody tell me if that is the case?
@Scott Wilhelm:
Although that really sounds like an interesting character concept, I absolutely dislike familiars. Maybe I am a little biased, because in 3.5 they seemed to be more of a burden than anything else. Plus, I'd need the Familiar Folio, which is not exactly high on my priority list.
Concerning your other point: I didn't think about the sleeping in armor part, because in my last games it never really occured as a problem. If it was a game focused on realism, I'd be sure to take endurance. But if you say in PFS that is not that much of a thing, I think I'll gamble and try without it. If it seems to become a problem, I can still take it; if anyone has feats to spare for stuff like that, it's the fighter. :)
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I really don't want to lose armor training I and II; the ability to move quickly in heavy armor seems extremely valuable to me, as my experience with fighters is that they often lack mobility when they want to wear the heavy stuff.Be a dwarf. Problem solved. (And see build below.)
I narrowed it down to the Martial Master, the Mobile Fighter and the Unbreakable. I don't want to play some obscure mutation stuff or anything; I want to play a "classical" fighter.
<hoist brew> Sah-lute! <applause>
(If I wanted a Star Wars cantina scene with a liberal dash of tentacle monsters as the party, I'd play a sci-fi or horror RPG.)
Plus the build should be PFS legal and i would prefer the regular books and not some really niche things, because I need to buy the source material.
Should we assume, then, that you own the CRB, Advanced Players Guide (for Mobile Fighter), Advanced Class Guide (for Martial Master), and Ultimate Combat (for Unbreakable)?
(The older books which have been through multiple printings can be found quite cheaply on-line. APB for under $15 on eBay. That is, if you can't find them at Goodwill.)
Yes, I thought about going just vanilla fighter, but for that I'd need the Weapon Master Handbook and the Armor Master Handbook... at least if I want to have the interesting options available.Those books didn't even exist until two years ago, and the "interesting options" generally aren't available until getting into mid-level (i.e., after Weapon Training is acquired), and your character might take a real-word year's worth of play time to reach 5th-7th (unless you're able to play every week).
No matter how I think about doing it, it looks like I'm going to need about half a dozen books to make the fighter work. Is that normal?No. You can make a perfectly solid fighter using only the CRB. He won't be as souped-up as one enjoying the benefit of two-dozen splats, but, built right, he'll still be better than most players' concoctions brought into PFS (where the mentality of half of the table is invariably "I need a 20 in Str, and will sack the other stats to get Con up")...don't do that.
Any advice on weapons and tactics? For the reach dilemma I thought about combining a polearm with a spiked glove, so I could attack adjacent squares. Or are there possibilities to achieve that with a reach weapon?
Your first job as a fighter is to realize what role the class mechanics cater toward (especially at low level, which you cannot avoid in PFS), and it boils down this: "You are NOT the barbarian!" (so don't try to be one, unless you're a multiclass). The role of fighter in the party, especially at low level, is not "striker"; it's "blocker". I.e., if there's a chokepoint, you're the cork jammed in it keeping a mob of enemies from pouring in and assaulting the "squishies" of the party. While marching, you're near the front of the line (usually second, at some minor distance behind the stealth scout).
If you eat three or four attacks to your AC for every one you take of your own, you're doing your job perfectly. You have the best AC in the party, so the party needs those attacks to be on you, not the rest of them. At higher levels, this will break down as intelligent opponents have more means of avoiding your character, but you'll have plenty of time to determine what splat goodie you want to ameliorate those situations.
The d20 fantasy derivatives are generally descendant of Tolkien, meaning that what is presented in Lord of the Rings generally works well in Pathfinder: Core halflings (hobbits) are the bards and rogues, elves are the archers, orcs are barbarians, and dwarves are fighters. Humans are good at most things but not better than the best racial professionals at any particular avocation. (Discounting Gandolf, who might not really be human.) Paizo tries to mix that up by having none of its Iconic characters be the Tolkien race most suitable for their professions as provided for by their own mechanics in the CRB inherited from 3e...so ignore their artwork.
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This sample fighter below is a dwarf, because, dwarf fighter. (To make him human is easy enough: gain one general feat, jigger the attributes, and then begin crying as you watch the saves plummet and darkvision go away.) The build doesn't include anything with a source more recent than 2014.
race: dwarf, PFS 20pt buy
str: 15
dex: 14
con: 16 +
int: 12
wis: 16 +
cha: 5 -
traits: Glory of Old (regional), Defender of the Society (combat)
1. fighter1 (core) Steel Soul (general feat) Shield Focus (combat feat)
Starting equipment: scale armor, large wooden shield, (any really cheap 5' melee weapon)
Right out of the gate, this guy is as tough as an anvil. Saving throws vs magic or poison are: Fort 10, Reflex 7, Will 8 because dwarf, oorah! Flat-footed armor-class is 21, then 23 when not flat-footed. With a +3 attack bonus, he hits 1st-level opponents half the time with a d10 weapon while they need 19s or 20s to hit him. It's entirely possible this character gets to 2nd without ever needing healing. That you're barely better at hitting things in melee than a wizard with a dull stick is immaterial because no PFS table GM is going to keep a permanent running tally of how many times you miss and subconsciously metagame his monster minis around you to other targets. As long as the enemy attacks you instead of someone else and wastes at least a couple of rounds at it, you're doing your job perfectly at 1st level.
After your first adventure, upgrade the scale to chain (which you'll stay in until buying masterwork O-yoroi or Tatami-do (which will be your permanent armor), and drop your garbage intro weapon for a masterwork cold-iron dwarven waraxe after the second.
"But I can't move! And everybody hates me!" ...Yeah, I hear you; that's what the next level is all about:
2. cleric1 (Rowdrosh, domains Community, Animal[Fur])
- With 1 skill point, your Diplomacy score is +4 (and therefore up to +1 with Cha5)
- move+10, and ability to cast Longstrider (domain slot or wand)
- Wis+3/day gain: ignore difficult terrain, move+10 more, low-light vision
- magic/poison saving throws now Fort 12, Reflex 7, Will 10
This is a case of taking cleric almost purely for strong domain powers that are automatic, free, or swift actions. We have no channeling capacity and only a few spells which won't normally be cast during combat due to not wielding a focus. These goodies are well worth the slight BAB hit (since we're not a pure striker anyway) and minimal delay in fighter. Move in heavy armor is now 30, 40 on demand 6/day, and up to 50 also including Longstrider -- you're as fast as a horse! (And that's the answer to the question of "How in heck did Gimli keep up during that march across Rohan?")
Why a dwarf is worshipping the empyreal lord of shepherds is left to the imagination of your backstory. Maybe you really love mutton and itchy wool blankets, and pray that the supply never diminishes. (Kurgess is another Travel deity option, trading out the Fur domain for Community domain's Calming Touch ability, which would let you get away with sleeping in your heavy armor. You'll find more uses for Fur's extra movement, however, and the armor annoyances can be solved with money later on.)
Play considerations: low-level tends to be very enjoyable in PFS as tables are usually plentiful and full, and the pace relaxed. Few characters are firing on all cylinders yet, nobody can remotely afford Raise Dead, and everybody including the GM knows it and dials down the harshness factor accordingly no matter how kill-crazy the module author is. Basically, everybody is having a great time screwing up and getting away with it. Advice: these are great levels to play at the "slow" rate in order to maximize the amount of fun, and as an added benefit you'll reel in twice the item and boon access from double the number of certs (and that's often a reason all on its own for going slow).
3. fighter2 Combat Reflexes (combat feat) Additional Traits: Seeker (social), Fate's Favored (faith)
General feat slots are precious; don't clutter them with combat feats unless you're trying to be a one-trick-pony weapon build (note: you're not) like an archer. Traits are generally worth half a feat, but the good ones are worth more than that, such as gaining a +4 to Perception.
At 3rd, this dwarf fighter concept is using his high wisdom score half-a-dozen different ways (saves, spells, two domain uses, rogue-like Perception score
Options available from now on (not necessarily all at the same time):
- drinking a potion of Enlarge Person to work in more attacks of opportunity from gaining reach (counts as a pseudo +15 move when you include enlarging in the direction of your choice)
- casting Divine Favor for a +2/+2 att/dmg Luck bonus
Buying a Cloak of Resistance, a Snapleaf, and a scroll or two of Magic Weapon (if you don't have them already), and some weapon cords (which you'll attach to your belt, not wrists). The temptation will be strong to splurge your small but accumulating pile of prestige points on 750 items like a Str+3 MW composite longbow and wands of CLW, Longstrider, and Divine Favor; my advice is to grit your teeth and refrain from doing so. Money will come rolling in soon enough, and PP you can never recover.
Further leveling:
4. fighter3 ...Str 16
5. fighter4 Friendly Switch (general feat), Quick Draw (combat feat)
6. fighter5 (Weapon Training)
Buy a Str belt at 4th, a +1/Adaptable bow at 5th, and Gloves of Dueling at 6th.
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A reach weapon is a solid choice, and pairing it with maneuvers works well. Don't worry about the inability to damage opponents that are adjacent, just use a cestus (It will still enable you to use your reach weapon) and/or use a 5' step to step back. As an added bonus, a potion of enlarge person will increase your reach to 20' (and give you a bit more damage), and there are various feats that enable you to increase this even further (e.g. lunge, combat patrol, etc.)
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@Slim Jim:
Holy mother of Moradin... that sounds like quite some build!
That is pretty much how I imagine a dwarven fighter. A massive, 4 foot high boulder with a beard. Stationary if it doesn't want to move. And good luck stopping it, when it decides to do so.
That said: My DnD 3.5 char was a human fighter; my WoW Char was a human fighter; my Baldurs Gate I & II char was a human fighter; my Neverwinter Nights I & II Char was a human fighter (well the first one at least); my... well, you get the picture. :)
This won't be the last fighter I intend to play in PFS. But it IS my first. And my first fighter is Malthus; ever has been, ever will be. And it is about time that Malthus battles his way through a new world. :)
I agree that there are many mechanically better race choices for a fighter in Pathfinder, but this one is mine.
But I'm definitely going to save your build idea. That is now on top of my "Tanky McTankiness" fighter build list I intend to play.
Oh and while I agree with your Tolkien-Archetypes-Principle: Gandalf is - as you said - out of the picture; he is a half-god (Maiar) which is quite cheaty. He is basically Tolkiens overpowered DM character. ;)
I am going to keep your advice in mind. (Mantra: "I am not the barbarian. I am not the barbarian. I am not the barbarian.") And try to keep myself helpful in several ways, while not missing out on my main principle.
@Gavmania:
Yes I think that is the route I'm going to take. Though I'll have to make do with a spiked gauntlet, until I buy the Adventurers Armory book and am allowed to buy a cestus.
Lunge is definitely on my feat list and enlarge person is also something I have on top of my to-buy-list.
I'll cobble a build together today, if I have the time.
Already thanks everyone for the helpful feedback!
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Hello, welcome to the institution
While not a fighter myself, I have worked along side many different types in the field, so I can give you some general advice on what works or what doesn't.
A more formal and standard military formation with a heavily armored fighter up front absorbing blows simply doesn't work. Many pathfinders will run into combat with a level of foresight i hesitate to call leminglike only out of fear of offending the poor lemmings.
You need to get to the fight fast. Your party members will. You'll also have a disconcerting number of evil spellcasters who will be inconsiderately NOT coming towards you, on top of cliffs and stair cases. Being able to move is key. Increase your movement speed, always have a way to fly, air walk, swim. Your +4 keen scythe is useless if you can't put it into the enemy.
Have a ranged weapon back up. A sling and a rock is a fairly servicable weapon and takes 5 minutes to make out of free materials at low level. Put a little bit of gold into an adaptive bow at higher levels. Many foes will fly above you and have no interest in coming to fight toe to toe with the party.
Watch your saves. Invest in a cloak, spare a feat for iron will. The most dangerous things in a dungeon to pathfinders is sometimes.. other pathfinders. Being charmed, dominated, or confused makes you a liability and that happens a lot. I used to have to hand out my collar of obedience to shockingly high level fighters because they never bought a cloak.
Rely on your party. If you can't use a wand of cure light wounds ? One of them probably can. Buy one. Same with scrolls of fly, haste, Want enlarge person? Hand the wizard a wand.
Take this for what it is worth: I have not played a fighter sense the days of the Red Box D&D.
With your obvious love of fighters I would recommend picking up the two splat books Armor Master's Handbook and Weapon Master Handbook. Both provide a lot of advantages to the class.
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@Flutter:
Thanks, I already came across that guide and read it.
Your advice is most appreciated. I'll keep that lemming-mentality in mind when I get to the table. I was planning for a longbow as a ranged option; for the first level - due to limited wealth - i was going to buy a few javelins. Okay-range and strength to damage seems alright for the little gold they cost.
I was already planning on becoming as self-sufficient as possible. And the fighter, who dismisses his saves is very quickly a dead fighter... or the reason for a party kill.
@Jason Wedel:
Yeah, those two books just bubbled higher on my to-buy-list. Looks like I'm going to have a Pathfinder library sooner or later. :)
Build
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 13
WIS 11
CHA 7
Traits: Observant (Grand Lodge Trait); +1 Perception, Perception as class skill (always worth it and fits the observant fighter I have in mind)
(Rich Parents? can anybody tell if it is worthwile? 900 gold on LVL 1 seems pretty neat) / Indomitable Faith / Reactionary <<< one of those as second
1: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Toughness/(Additional Traits? there are some nice ones, though the crème dé la crème is pretty scattered over several books I don't have yet)
2: Improved Trip
3: Iron Will
4: Improved Disarm
5: Dodge
6: Lunge
7: Mobility
8: Combat Patrol
9: Vital Strike
10: ?
11: ?
Well, that's what I came up with. With vanilla fighter I have the chance to pick up some nice training options as soon as I buy the Weapon Master & Armor Master Handbooks. The feat choices are from Core and Advanced Players Guide, both of which I have available.
Or are the Power Attack/Cleave/Focus/Spec. feats really important and I shouldn't forego them?
Also: Combat Patrol seems really useful for the kind of controller I have in mind, but Dodge and Mobility is a pretty steep investment. Or are those two more worthwile than they were in 3.5?
personally again from my experience with 14 PFS characters, area control just doesn't really exist all that much. Like as a fighter your job is to kill things. You'll be near the front and enemies that are going to ignore you can and your area control did nothing, and those that are going to fight you will fight you, again making control pretty useless. Like combat patrol, might seem cool, but monsters don't move more than 5ft once they've engaged and if you're not the front line then they engaged with someone that is on the front line.
So if you want to go for it go for it, just be aware that it might underperform or vastly under-perform to your expectations.
@Slim Jim:
Holy mother of Moradin... that sounds like quite some build!
That is pretty much how I imagine a dwarven fighter. A massive, 4 foot high boulder with a beard. Stationary if it doesn't want to move. And good luck stopping it, when it decides to do so.
One reason I didn't go with a polearm in the dwarf-fighter build (my barbarians always are focused around a polearm) is because they're ill-suited to the blocker role (where you're a plug in a 5' or 10' doorway or corridor), and didn't want to feel a pressing need to upgrade a third weapon (a bow being the second, because don't be that martial character who's useless in ranged combat). At higher levels TWF'ing with a shield-bash and a "close" weapon is very effective for fighters who's taken "Close" as their Weapon Training group.
That said: My DnD 3.5 char was a human fighter; my WoW Char was a human fighter; my Baldurs Gate I & II char was a human fighter; my Neverwinter Nights I & II Char was a human fighter (well the first one at least); my... well, you get the picture. :)
So buy a Hat of Disguise and be a "human". A "human" with an awesome fort and will save, like, +8!!! higher will than your Wis 11 build, and more hitpoints. There is no buff in this game that can give you a permanent +6/+8 to your will save -- but being a dwarf at 1st level can.
Or maybe you were a human on the run from the law, and needed to permanently disguise yourself as a dwarf. Little did you know that Rowdrosh had a wicked sense of humor: one day you tried to take off that hat you stole off a scarecrow, and, um, oh my, what's going on here.... Is it a curse?
-- You shouldn't have rustled all of those sheep.
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 13
WIS 11
CHA 7Traits: Observant (Grand Lodge Trait); +1 Perception, Perception as class skill (always worth it and fits the observant fighter I have in mind)
(Rich Parents? can anybody tell if it is worthwile? 900 gold on LVL 1 seems pretty neat) / Indomitable Faith / Reactionary <<< one of those as second1: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Toughness/(Additional Traits? there are some nice ones, though the crème dé la crème is pretty scattered over several books I don't have yet)
2: Improved Trip
3: Iron Will
4: Improved Disarm
5: Dodge
6: Lunge
7: Mobility
8: Combat Patrol
9: Vital Strike
When compared to the "sheep-rustler" at 2nd level: will save is a whopping 8 worse after accounting for Iron Will (pretending you had taken that at 1st, and consider it "eating" your human bonus feat), all wisdom skills are -2 including Perception, no casting (i.e., no Divine Favor, CLW, or Bless), max possible move -30 in heavy armor, no darkvision, skill points/level the same, hitpoints the same, and three "odd" stats at character creation mean point-buy allocation doesn't achieve best potential bonus density. Prediction: this character will be continually zonked out by Grease, Sleep, Colorspray, and other low-level spells. Not to mention the drugged food NPCs are always serving you, the Filth Fever in the sewers, and breathing those darn mold spores. This results in considerable down-time and onerous expense for healing and items to address deficiencies.
The feats are self-centered, and with one exception, all combat. You're much better off as a barbarian doing trip and disarm maneuvers in a striker-role (because the strength boost augments CMB), and both are mainly suitable to weapon-wielding humanoid opponents and not a lot else. The trip feat chain requires the tax feat Combat Expertise (which is not necessarily bad, but you still need it as a prerequisite taking up a slot, and trip really is only worth it when you get the Greater version...which this build doesn't include). Realize that a fighter's Weapon Training is only letting him catch up to the barbarian with a limited number of weapons. Vital Strike is an underrated feat, but you should be taking it at 6th here to get best mileage out of it; note that you can't use Vital Strike with Combat Patrol.
A Combat Patrolling fighter on watch-duty is a prime candidate for a will-save during an ambush, and humans can't see very far at night.
By the way, Rich Parents is not PFS-legal.
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personally again from my experience with 14 PFS characters, area control just doesn't really exist all that much. Like as a fighter your job is to kill things.
It's a striker's job to kill things. Barbarians, blasters, and archers are strikers. The melee fighter is a blocker whose role is to prevent the enemy from killing his allies while being as minimal a drain on party healing resources as possible. If a striker goes down to damage or a blown save, it's annoying; when a blocker goes down, it's deadly to the party.*
(*I've been in low-level mods where the only reason there weren't mass casualties is because my heavy armor cleric stood in the doorway on full-defense to keep the trolls out. She stood there for five rounds eating four attacks per round. All the over-eager strikers screamed at her to get out of the way. But she didn't, because her player had a high wisdom score and knew what was going to happen if they got in the room. Keeping the Drizzit clones in leather alive is a thankless task, I tell you.)
You'll be near the front and enemies that are going to ignore you can and your area control did nothingIt depends on level: At 12th, most adversaries are going to attack whomever they way, and there's little that anybody can do about it. At low level, an Enlarged tank in a hallway is the master of the encounter.
So if you want to go for it go for it, just be aware that it might underperform or vastly under-perform to your expectations.
Combat Patrol's major problem is that it's highly situational and with two tax feats the heavy-armor fighter typically does not need or have an interest in.
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i would second what Slim Jim is saying- Combat Patrol is highly situational.
Improved Trip will become moot at higher levels when you encounter flying enemies or large enemies that have a huge CMD.
I'd suggest taking a second look at the Martial Master archetype and research various Combat Feats that you'd like to play around with.
My Emerald Spire Fighter often switches to Dedicated Adversary and Caster's Champion before Vital Striking an enemy- for 2d10+20 some damage [power attacking with a halberd].
Blocking is important, but you run into tumbling goblins and lots of open space if you are outdoors...
Here's my Human Fighter build (haven't played him yet).
Str 16 +2 = 18
Dex 14 (+1 4th/8th)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 8
Feats
1 Power Attack
1 Imprv Init
2 Cleave
3 Weapon Focus: Greatsword
4 Weapon Spec: Greatsword
5 Step Up If Foe moves 5', you move adj
6 Vital Strike 1 atk, extra 2d6 dmag
7 Following Step Step Up move is 10'
8 Step Up & Strike: StpUp/Fllw then atk of op
Traits:
Seeker: +1 Perception, is class skill
Indomitable Faith: +1 Will Save
Starts with Greatsword and Scale Mail, so AC 17, average damage is 7 (2d6) +6 (Str*1.5) +3 (Power Attack*1.5) = 16
Pick up a Cold Iron Morningstar for 16 gp for a backup weapon. It's 1d8 of Bash damage and Cold Iron and a Masterwork Greatsword.
Upgrade to Masterwork Full Plate when you can afford it, and pick up a +3 Str Composite Shortbow after that. Cold Iron arrows are cheap.
Not as save optimized as the dwarf above, but this guy gets close to someone and they can't get away without an Attack of Opportunity.
Power Attack at 1st and the fighter is -3 to hit behind a barbarian without it. -4 or more if Str is not his highest stat at creation. IMO it's not worth it at low level, particularly if you're not a two-hander.
Enlarged with Combat Reflexes is the best way to generate attacks of opportunity. There will be corner-cases like tumbling goblins, but generally speaking, 99% of opponents are getting a face full of axe if they're adjacent and move.
Btw, everybody go look up Friendly Switch. It's one of the oldest (circa 2009) of Paizo's own feats not inherited from 3e, and it seems like everyone has forgotten about it. -- It is very nice in a defender/protector-type build, especially if you're enlarged in a 10' hallway and there's an ally between you and the monster whom you need behind you.
In the earlier build post, replace "Community" domain with "Travel" in the build at 2nd level. (Most of you probably figured that was what was going on.)
I like Pushing Assault for reach fighters.
1. Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Pushing Assault
2. Stand Still
3-20, whatever
Grab a reach weapon and spiked gauntlets for close up work, some javelins or chackrams for ranged attacks, and go!
Lunge is good, especially when combined with Pushing Assault. Vital Strike is good for those rounds where you have to move and attack.
FYI, I think you can take Dirty Fighting instead of Combat Expertise if you don't want 13+ Int.
Striker build non-barbarian fighters might work in a roll-your-own homegame, but they have trouble in a 20pt campaign like PFS. Any excessive emphasis in high strength at first, and desire to grab that extra human feat, results in mediocre attack bonus and mediocre to poor saves, and all of that will wreck your consumables budget (constant healing, potions of Lesser Restoration, contracting NPC spellcasting services for Cure Disease, roasting Prestige Points to pay for it, etc).
Striker build: savage technologist barbarian or bloodrager with a polearm at 1st level (then he picks up some levels of archetype fighter before multiclassing a third time into cavalier or whatever else suits his fancy). Combat Reflexes and/or Extra Rage. ...done.
Straight fighters are a lot tricker because you're immediately -2/-3 versus the raging barbarian's attack and damage. 6th-7th level, your "fame" score and finances will permit Gloves of Dueling, but by then half of your PFS career is already over. Prior to that, you need to be the most "reliable" character in the party: the guy who never drops, the person the cleric trusts not to frequently need her best spells spontaneously converted to healing, etc, and ideally, the warrior with the right weapon for all occasions (which is why I typically don't go focus/specialization).
Strikers are awesome to play, but frequently need babysitting during and after the rougher fights. The dwarf fighter plows though with, "Nah, it's just a scratch.
Pushing Assault with a polearm is great at higher level when you're taking an AoO against a pounce monster and can wreck its charge.
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It's a striker's job to kill things. Barbarians, blasters, and archers are strikers. The melee fighter is a blocker whose role is to prevent the enemy from killing his allies while being as minimal a drain on party healing resources as possible.
For the reasons listed above, a blocker simply does not work as a general strategy in PFS. Yes, there are times when they would be nice to have, but outside of a few very specific builds you cannot block damage in between the enemy and the other melee (which PFS is crawling with). For every time this is an optimal strategy, there will be 10 or more times where the game bogs down with you unable to do serious damage to something with DR.
Once initiative is rolled, the party strikers are running right up to the thing. Chances are pretty good their initiative is higher and they run faster than you.
Once you get there, there is no "in between" between melee and the bad guy, they're nose to nose. You need a bodyguard build, a helpful halfling, or a space invading mouser to really help defend them.
PFS parties are larger than most home games, 5 6 or 7 people plus pets. More of those will be melee. In larger parties, you don't just have more people, you have a more effective party. Its pretty rare to wind up with 2 healers... you only need 1 whether you have 4 5 6 or 7 people. Burning things down with 1 healer 1 arcane support and 5 strikers becomes a very viable strategy.
A good chunk of the "Oh my gozreh we're gonna die" fights don't involve someone attacking AC, but targeting saves. Shields and armor are of very little use there.
A fighter with a 2 handed weapon might not be optimal, but it certainly works.
Fighters start off the a tiny bit behind a barb, but ramp up fairly quickly to be really good at fighting.
at lv5 they have weapon focus, weapon specialization and weapon training for +2 to hit and +3 to damage, the same as the raging barb does, and the barb probably doesn't have weapon focus but if he does then you're matching the accuracy at lv8 and then at lv9 you're ahead and also about now is when you can reasonably afford the gloves of dueling.
Also you're likely in fullplate meaning your AC is 20 really early while the barb is looking at 17 or 18 when not raging. And with your feats you can do a lot of getting ahead.
SO lets take a half-orc barb and a fighter. both will have stats of
18/14/15/10/12/7 which seems fair to both as this is a very good array for both.
At lv2 the barb has power attack as their feat
raging attack of +7 for 2d6+12 and AC of 16 with their breastplate
at lv2 the fighter has weapon focus, power attack, and dodge
attack of +6 for 2d6+9 damage and AC of 21 with their fullplate
at lv4 the barb has picked up iron will as it's feat and is at +8 for 2d6+15 ac of 16
at lv4 the fighter has added iron will and weapon specialization and is at +7 for 2d6+14 ac of 22
at lv6 the barb grabs raging vitality as it's important for not dying. now he's at +10 for 2d6+15 and ac of 18 since he has beast totem now
at lv6 the fighter grabs AWT for shield bonus and armor focus. Now he's at +10 for 2d6+15 ac of 24
at lv8 the barb now picked up lunge and Furious for his weapon and is at +12 for 2d6+19 (I'm not counting the magic item itself, only what the barb has over the fighter) AC of 19
at lv8 the fighter has added GWF and lunge and has +2 weapon (which increases shield AC by 1) and is at +12 for 2d6+18 ac of 25
Like as you can see, the fighter while starting off a little worse for attack and damage (when it's the least needed, dice are gods and HP is low) compared to the barb has fairly quickly pulled equal. All while maintaining like 6 AC over the raging barb.
A normal fighter get roughly the same attack and damage as a barb while having like 6 more AC.
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Here's the next paragraph of the post you quoted from:It's a striker's job to kill things. Barbarians, blasters, and archers are strikers. The melee fighter is a blocker whose role is to prevent the enemy from killing his allies while being as minimal a drain on party healing resources as possible.For the reasons listed above, a blocker simply does not work as a general strategy in PFS.
If a striker goes down to damage or a blown save, it's annoying; when a blocker goes down, it's deadly to the party.*
(*I've been in low-level mods where the only reason there weren't mass casualties is because my heavy armor cleric stood in the doorway on full-defense to keep the trolls out. She stood there for five rounds eating four attacks per round. All the over-eager strikers screamed at her to get out of the way. But she didn't, because her player had a high wisdom score and knew what was going to happen if they got in the room. Keeping the Drizzit clones in leather alive is a thankless task, I tell you.)
Those are personal anecdotes. (I can tell within half an hour whose PCs are likely to face-plant later on, if not immediately by glancing at their character sheet.)
Can the striker kill the troll? Absolutely. Can the troll kill the striker? Yes, and without much difficulty, especially if he's double-teaming with an ally monster. (I've seen more dead greatsword barbarians in PFS than nearly all other classes combined, with only Drizzit clones spoiling their run for the Golden Raspberry.)
Can the high-AC blocker fighter kill the troll? Yes, albeit more slowly than a striker. Can the troll kill the blocker. Unlikely.
Can the troll kill a squishy? Yes, and frighteningly fast.
-- Priority therefore is the keep the trolls off the squishies. Best party tactics involve a blocker keeping the enemy bottled up while the strikers engage from behind him with magic, archery or polearms. Does that tactic kill the troll as fast as the troll being surrounded by strikers? No. But does more safely deal with the troll threat? Absolutely. Ideally, the trolls are dead and the blocker took maybe one or two hits off 19 or 20 die-rolls, and needs a CLW. Versus half-a-dozen or more CLW and CMW the other way.
Here's another anecdote: two 3rd-level hidden enemy rogues on either side of a doorway which a patch of Grease on the floor. A PC enters the room, slips, takes four 1d6+2+2d6 TWF sneak-attacks. -- I saw that simple defensive enemy set-up, capable of unloading over fifty points per round against a single flanked and prone target, have half the party under 0hp at Tier5/6. It wasn't even a boss fight.
Yes, there are times when they would be nice to have, but outside of a few very specific builds you cannot block damage in between the enemy and the other melee (which PFS is crawling with).What PFS is crawling with are corridors and other sorts of cramped confines designed to give line-of-sight, mounted, and charge-exploiting characters a difficult time.
For every time this is an optimal strategy, there will be 10 or more times where the game bogs down with you unable to do serious damage to something with DR.The context of this conversation is a starting character. Zero opponents are going to have DR, and won't for several more levels. A gargoyle will show up at Tier3/4 to remind everyone that it's time to get their weapons upgraded to magic.
Once initiative is rolled, the party strikers are running right up to the thing. Chances are pretty good their initiative is higher and they run faster than you.
And such will almost certainly demolish "dumb encounter design". With smart encounter design, the rush-straight-up barbarian slips on the Grease and eats 53 points of damage from four sneak-attacks. (if your GM is the benevolent sort, he'll roll each hitting attack separately and withhold the remaining ones after you're unconscious. But some don't, and roll everything combined.)
But even without such a setting, a striker-rush is not always or even usually the best tactic. (See that post, and its follow-up response.) That's a powerful striker build whose mechanics exploit and enhance a blocker ally at the head of a party marching formation. He's extremely destructive, but his saves and AC are lower. As you say, a party can do OK with a support character and the rest all strikers. I rejoin: but not as well as a party with at least one blocker added to the mix.
PFS parties are larger than most home games, 5 6 or 7 people plus pets. More of those will be melee.And that's actually a problem. The bigger the party, the more likely there will be casualties, especially when the addition of the 6th PC "upgrades" the PFS scenario difficulty to the next level. The enemy are therefore stronger and/or more numerous, and have a wider variety of PC target to choose from (or include in AoE), and, if in cramped quarters such as a room-fight, more likely to enjoy full-attacks because they don't have to move far to reach anyone. -- And that's how a solid five-player party turns into a disaster when a sixth player, a non-healer, arrives. Overall, the PCs still complete the scenario, but their "expenses" go through the roof.
A good chunk of the "Oh my gozreh we're gonna die" fights don't involve someone attacking AC, but targeting saves. Shields and armor are of very little use there.
Dwarf, submitted up-page: Fort 12, Reflex 7, Will 10 -- at 2nd level, no equipment. (And with a move of up to 50 in heavy armor, he's actually faster than a barbarian in light armor.)
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Fighters start off the a tiny bit behind a barb, but ramp up fairly quickly to be really good at fighting.
at lv5 they have weapon focus, weapon specialization and weapon training for +2 to hit and +3 to damage, the same as the raging barb does...
With one weapon. The striker barbarian gets his rage bonus to everything.
My dwarf-fighter listed up-page, at higher level, would have a bashing shield + punch-dagger (or other "close" group weapon) TWF/Weapon Training "close" category mechanic going for full-attacks, and Quick Draw with a bow or Tanglefoot bags for ranged threats. (The masterwork cold-iron waraxe is the low-level primary weapon, and not upgraded further.)
-- Don't be that straight-fighter with everything invested in one melee weapon. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are weak-sauce feat slots literally begging you to see what else Paizo has made available over the last eight years. Get thy heads out of 3rd edition. Put general feats in the general slots, and explore the rich world of Teamwork feats in the combat slots once you've acquired a Commander's Helm at mid-level.
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Here's the next paragraph of the post you quoted from:
This was read and it was responded to. So I'm not sure why you think it needs to be repeated.
maybe i need to speak up
ahheheheems...*draws in deep breath
Yes, there are times when they would be nice to have
For every time this is an optimal strategy, there will be 10 or more times where the game bogs down with you unable to do serious damage to something with DR.
So you stopped people from playing their characters because you didn't agree with their strategy.
Alternately, you could have held the troll off for one round, moved back, and then made the troll move in after you, where your party could five foot step and attack. If you're a healer and really worried about them, throw shield other on one them and let them take the hits. That lets them live through an absurd amount of damage (first level fighter with a 14 con needs 51? points of damage to die) and effectively doubles the healing from your channeling.
I've seen more dead greatsword barbarians in PFS than nearly all other classes combined, with only Drizzit clones spoiling their run for the Golden Raspberry.
In no small part because there's little need to kill the blocker when the striker is the one threatening their life.
Best party tactics involve a blocker keeping the enemy bottled up while the strikers engage from behind him with magic, archery or polearms.
You seem to think that you have, or should have, the ability to dictate the builds, equipment, tactics, and actions of your party members.
You don't. You are going into the dungeon with a herd of cats. You have to prepare for a herd of cats, not wish they were a pack of trained hounds that will do your bidding.
Does that tactic kill the troll as fast as the troll being surrounded by strikers? No. But does more safely deal with the troll threat? Absolutely. Ideally, the trolls are dead and the blocker took maybe one or two hits off 19 or 20 die-rolls, and needs a CLW. Versus half-a-dozen or more CLW and CMW the other way.
And how much fun was had by the people you derisively refer to as Drizzt clones? You know, the PEOPLE you're playing the game with? As they stood there for what.. half an hour watching you be awesome?
What PFS is crawling with are corridors and other sorts of cramped confines designed to give line-of-sight, mounted, and charge-exploiting characters a difficult time.
They're not mutually exclusive. Something can be crawling with 2 things. You are going to have a lot of melee and your ability to defend them is very limited.
The context of this conversation is a starting character. Zero opponents are going to have DR, and won't for several more levels. A gargoyle will show up at Tier3/4 to remind everyone that it's time to get their weapons upgraded to magic.
It is very hard for characters to change direction once they start. Outside of level 1 protoplasm shennanigans, the character you start making at level 1 sets the course for the rest of their careers. The archetype you pick in your starting class isn't QUITE set in stone but it's definitely chiseled in wood.
And such will almost certainly demolish "dumb encounter design". With smart encounter design
You don't design the dungeon either. And you still don't dictate the parties tactics.
That's a powerful striker build whose mechanics exploit and enhance a blocker ally at the head of a party marching formation.
Which, again, doesn't work in PFS unless you're playing regularly with a friend because you can't demand that someone block for you and the blocker can't demand that someone hide behind them.
Dwarf, submitted up-page: Fort 12, Reflex 7, Will 10 -- at 2nd level, no equipment. (And with a move of up to 50 in heavy armor, he's actually faster than a barbarian in light armor.)
I see him. But just surviving the fireball or confusion doesn't help your allies.
You are not playing neverwinter knights here. You're going into the dungeon with whatever bag of mixed nuts sits down at the table. YOU have to adapt to them, you can't make them adapt to you. At best they'll ignore you, at worst they'll stop going into the dungeon with you.
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So you stopped people from playing their characters because you didn't agree with their strategy.Well I suppose my NG heavy-armor cleric in the troll-blocking scenario could have just decided she was CN that day, stepped aside, and said "They're all yours, boys!" as they poured into the room to shred the others. But she didn't, because she'd seen it happen before.
Alternately, you could have held the troll off for one round, moved back, and then made the troll move in after you, where your party could five foot step and attack. If you're a healer and really worried about them, throw shield other on one them and let them take the hits.Casting a standard-action spell in melee as a low-level character within the threatened zone of two monsters with reach doesn't seem like a good idea, especially if it requires dropping the AC+4 bonus from full-defense versus four attacks per round. Letting the reach-monsters in the room to enjoy all sorts of AoOs on the 17yo players' Drizzits with 5' weapons didn't seem like a good idea at the time either.
That lets them live through an absurd amount of damage (first level fighter with a 14 con needs 51? points of damage to die) and effectively doubles the healing from your channeling.
They need considerably less damage than that to still put a very serious dent in their consumables budget and my daily allotment of casting.
The troll fight anecdote above ended quite satisfactorily: it took awhile, but in the end I was the only one slightly hurt, and not a single wand or scroll charge was used.
Mind you: it shouldn't have been me in that role, because the party healer shouldn't be the "tank". The role fell to me by default as the only person in the party with decent AC. The party needed one less Drizzit and one more dwarf. Alas, I do not get to pick the other PCs, as you observe below. I can only modulate my own tactics accordingly. In that particular encounter, my cleric going on full-defense in a choke-point achieved the optimal outcome.
If the troll can figure out how to claw through the wall to get around me, then they can do something about the striker shooting at him over my head from a position of perfect safety. Either that or keep bashing against my AC which was ten or twelve points higher than Mr. Drizzit's.I've seen more dead greatsword barbarians in PFS than nearly all other classes combined, with only Drizzit clones spoiling their run for the Golden Raspberry.In no small part because there's little need to kill the blocker when the striker is the one threatening their life.
Best party tactics involve a blocker keeping the enemy bottled up while the strikers engage from behind him with magic, archery or polearms.You seem to think that you have, or should have, the ability to dictate the builds, equipment, tactics, and actions of your party members.
Nope, didn't do that at all. I just stood in the doorway and didn't let the trolls in.
More generally speaking, this is an Advice forum, and I will share my experiences with, in particular, low-level tables (where "SQUIRREL!!!" mentality is rife) and how they screw up in all eight directions. Within the context of "straight fighter", I provided a build geared for maximum survivability and party utility with very minimal consumable expenditures at low-level. It all adds up over time to save your life (see below).
You are going into the dungeon with a herd of cats. You have to prepare for a herd of cats.<shrug> Cats will be cats, and Drizzits will be Drizzits, which is why....
Dwarf, submitted up-page: Fort 12, Reflex 7, Will 10 -- at 2nd level, no equipment. (And with a move of up to 50 in heavy armor, he's actually faster than a barbarian in light armor.)I see him. But just surviving the fireball or confusion doesn't help your allies.
...sometimes all that you can do to help your allies is to be the one guy still standing after the near-TPK, so then at least the other players don't have to pay the additional "body recovery fees", and that costs 5 Prestige Points in PFS on top of the 16 PP for Raise Dead; and, unlike Raise, you can't pay for body recovery with gold. -- If you're out of PP because you've been frivolously blowing it all on CLW wands that you keep roasting dry, well then that character is done. Make a new one.
Fighters start off the a tiny bit behind a barb, but ramp up fairly quickly to be really good at fighting.
at lv5 they have weapon focus, weapon specialization and weapon training for +2 to hit and +3 to damage, the same as the raging barb does...With one weapon. The striker barbarian gets his rage bonus to everything.
My dwarf-fighter listed up-page, at higher level, would have a bashing shield + punch-dagger (or other "close" group weapon) TWF/Weapon Training "close" category mechanic going for full-attacks, and Quick Draw with a bow or Tanglefoot bags for ranged threats. (The masterwork cold-iron waraxe is the low-level primary weapon, and not upgraded further.)
-- Don't be that straight-fighter with everything invested in one melee weapon. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are weak-sauce feat slots literally begging you to see what else Paizo has made available over the last eight years. Get thy heads out of 3rd edition. Put general feats in the general slots, and explore the rich world of Teamwork feats in the combat slots once you've acquired a Commander's Helm at mid-level.
So you're wanting to intentionally make a weak character that is less useful to the party. Well if you like to and have fun being bad go for it.
And you're suggesting saving and spending 10,000 early to spend a turn putting a feat to the team that isn't really going to help them win a fight. Right...
Maybe your flavorful builds are okay where you play and with the people you play with. But I know I'd be groaning, if only internally, to have a character like you're suggesting at the table, one that is basically a dead weight to be carried.
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So you're wanting to intentionally make a weak character that is less useful to the party.
Party's consumable expenses during successful troll encounter above: zero.
-- In PFS, consumable costs will nickel-and-dime you to pieces.
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So, the avatar I use, Deighton Thrane, was my -1. It was also my first real experience playing Pathfinder. He was built with similar purpose to the dwarf above, good defense and saves, meant to hold the line and survive while doing middling damage. And some of the time he actually did that, holding 5 foot hallways so the wizard was safe, or single handedly taking out a handful of mooks because they couldn't crack the high AC. That was in the 1-5 tier though. By the time you're hitting 6-7 though, you're facing much more varied challenges. Enemies with special movement types that don't care about positioning, enemies making touch attacks, or large (or larger enemies) making grapple checks with ridiculous bonuses, or just running into monsters with ridiculous attack bonuses. Eventually the character really felt less like a real contributor, and more like someone who was just filling the ranks, as other characters gain better means to control the battlefield, gain much better defenses, or do a noticeably larger amount of damage than you do. I've talked to a few other players about similar characters, who all felt similarly. One of the worst sessions I've had is when a sword and board fighter was playing with my monk character, and slowly came to realize that everything he was supposed to be good at, the monk was better, accentuated by an encounter where the party had to rush through an area with an electrified floor that worked similar to shocking grasp. Monk walked right through, without a single attack hitting him, witch flew right over, he walked through and took 20d6 damage, nearly putting him unconscious.
After playing those characters, I can't in good conscience suggest sword and board fighter to new players. At least not if they plan on playing right to 12th level. Good starting character, but AC becomes devalued as play continues. High damage builds, on the other hand, are always useful, and fighters, especially the two handed fighter archetype, can do excellent damage.
Can a fighter transition to sword & board to two-handed fighting? Obviously, stuff like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization and Shield Focus don't transition well, but taking defensive feats like Dodge, Iron Will, Steel Soul, etc., are still useful at higher levels, right? Low level one-handed Power Attack is helpful, and gets better at higher levels when used with two-handed weapons.
I don't play in PS, and have no experience in it, so I don't know how different it is from regular campaigns. I'm getting the impression the parties are highly variable and often uncoordinated in character builds and balance.
Can a fighter transition to sword & board to two-handed fighting?
Absolutely. Drop the shield on the ground. Ta-da. The dwarf fighter/cleric build up-page was a two-level chassis that can underpin just about any concept imaginable (well, it's a dwarf, if you can tear yourself to play one). It has paladin-like saves, exceptional AC, and is fast as a horse. About as handsome as a horse's face, too, but then the concept is a fighter, not a prancing swashbuckler or a bard who consciously drinks his tea with his pinky finger stuck out just the correct amount lest he commit a minor faux pas in polite company. No, you're the smashmouth guy who gets things done on a bloody battlefield, and one of the best things you can do in low-level PFS is limit the amount of in-bound damage the party, and yourself in particular, take, because everyone is at a very precarious point around especially 3rd and 4th (in my experience this is when the lower-AC, lower-saves characters get in trouble fast as enemy power escalates, and they have little time to compensate as PFS structure relentlessly levels them again in only a few more mods, ready or not, here we come).
As Deighton Thrane observes, Tier6/7 is when hell starts breaking loose. AoE damage becomes much more common (and that's a reason the dwarf build went with a 16 Con; in fact, it's just as reasonable to start with a 17 in Con and a 14 in Str, and bump Con at 4th). Fighters notoriously fail reflex saves, and it's annoying. Well-built fighters can shrug off a tone of melee damage, but when they do get hit, it's often a crit. A crit and a blown reflex save in the same encounter can ruin your day.
-- Getting over the stupid crap on the floor: Buy the winged boots! It's not like you're being forced to wear something else, or get the dueling gloves or a +3 weapon upgrade first. Money will solve most problems in this game, but getting to the raining-cash levels requires not getting killed in the early game. Attending to your defenses right from the beginning ensures that you have more money to spend each level, and that snowball rolls in both directions: If your AC and saves are ahead of the curve, you take less damage for lower consumable expenditure and consequently have more money to upgrade gear quicker, whereas if you're under curve, then your healing budget is wrecked, and, if you die too many times, you're paying for Raise Dead out-of-pocket, eventually having to sell gear to afford it (and that is a vicious, downward spiral difficult to escape from).
Obviously, stuff like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization and Shield Focus don't transition well, but taking defensive feats like Dodge, Iron Will, Steel Soul, etc., are still useful at higher levels, right?
Fighters can get AC+1 with a trait in PFS, and Iron Will is 1/3rd as good as Steel Soul for a dwarf. If you think you need Greater Iron Will,
examine whether or not your will save at such-n-such a level will actually be high enough to actually succeed often enough to justify a two-feat chain. (If it's not,then perhaps a character redesign is in order. Human fighters with Wis11 are going to have a rough time.)
Low level one-handed Power Attack is helpfulAt low level, most opponents need one or two smacks to drop regardless of whether you have Power Attack or not. In martial builds I often delay it until 4th and in conjunction with Str in an odd number stat going to even while simultaneously buying a belt.
and gets better at higher levels when used with two-handed weapons.
The fastest way to expand a blocker fighter into an all-around striker is to multiclass a level of Barbarian (with the Savage Technologist and Drunken Brute archetypes being a nearly ideal stack). Just one level, with Extra Rage dropped in a general feat slot. Then you can switch to a polearm (shield downgraded to a buckler) and exploit Combat Reflexes area-denial tactics, drinking Enlarge potions as a move-action.
Of course you're less of a pure fighter than before (as it is mechanically attractive to take barbarian at 1st), so there's that.
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Wow, didn't expect such a heated discussion; I couldn't come online to check back with your answers the last two days, sorry for that.
@Slim Jim:
I am not going to argue, that your build is better, because it simply IS better mechanically. But it would be a completely different character than I have in mind. That would be like "I want to play a rogue" - "Play unchained monk/ninja/fighter/whatever because it's just SO much better."
I want to play that character, because I want to play that character. Not because I want to play some mechanically superior tank-death-machine. As I said, I'm definitely saving your build and heed some of your advice, because that tank-death-machine looks quite appealing to me. But that would be a hole 'nother character. :)
@SmiloDan:
Pushing Assault looks very interesting, thanks! And Stand Still looks like a solid choice either. I must have overlooked those two before. Stuff like that is exactly what I was hoping to get as advice here. :)
@Selvaxri:
Thanks for the advice with the martial master. I will definitely take a second look at that one, because it definitely looks interesting and versatile. But to use it in PFS I'd need to buy yet another book and I already have several on my list.
@Sir Belmont the Valiant:
Thanks for the example build. I am sure to stea... erm "borrow" some of those feat choices. Especially the Step up - chain looks like it would fit into my fighting style idea.
Looks like it will come down to a combination of the "Step Up"-feats, Pushing Assault, Stand Still, Combat Reflexes and some others like Iron Will to bolster my defences. Never thought I'd say that, but as a fighter I have still too few feats to get all the nice feats I would like to take. x)
Thanks everyone for the help! I'm sure to put that advice to good use.
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A good solid Sword and Board as they're called is pretty easy to work out.
feats (h-Human, G- General, B-Bonus)
1H- Iron Will
1G- Improved Shield Bash
1B- Two-Weapon Fighting
(These three off the bat, give you greater Defense and two weapons)
2B- Weapon Focus (1-Handed Weapon of choice)
3G- Toughness
4B- Weapon Specialization
5G- Power Attack
6B- Vital Strike
7G- Furious Attack (APG: reduce penalties from Power Attack to nothing while gaining all the benefits for the FIRST Melee attack you make, with Vital strike it reduces you to one attack per melee round, but improves your damage overall)
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Sword and Board was my first thought for a fighter, but I decided for a two handed build instead, because I like the concept of reach weapons and their possibilities.
But Furious Attack looks promising! Though I am not sure if it works with the build you suggested:
Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.
To me that sounds like you can't use it with a one handed weapon and a shield. But it would be a viable choice for the two handed fighter I have in mind.
Furious focus, is to some, a feat trap.
It only works on your first attack, and normally your first attack is so good that you're hitting on a 5 if not a 2. FF turns that 5 into a 3 and the 2 into a 2, and then it's doing nothing for your other attacks. Which to me seems like a pretty lackluster feat.
If you have a reach weapon (i don't play melee without them) have a way to hit things close to you: cold iron and silver gauntlets, a dwarven boulder helmet, unarmed strike, spiked gauntlets... something.
A good solid Sword and Board as they're called is pretty easy to work out.
feats (h-Human, G- General, B-Bonus)
1H- Iron Will
1G- Improved Shield Bash
1B- Two-Weapon Fighting
(These three off the bat, give you greater Defense and two weapons)
IMO if you're going to take Iron Will (crappy tax feat), then you should take Greater Iron Will (the much better feat that gives you the reroll) immediately coincident, or at least...soon.
If your will save would fail 50% of the time before any defensive feat, Iron Will only improves you slightly from .5 to .6. But include Greater and you're up to .84.
If you have an additional re-roll (like a Pathfinder goblin-die shirt in PFS), you'll be to 93.6% to beat a critically-important saving throw (but only 75% without either feat).
Note that if your save is really awful (e.g., human fighter, wis 11), the feats aren't going to help much.
-- Yes, I know there's some really nice helmets that protect your mind waiting for your cash...but then your mid-level fighter isn't wearing a Commander's Helm.
but then your mid-level fighter isn't wearing a Commander's Helm.
which is a huge upgrade and causes them not to be wasting money!
It's only 10k, and enables the fighter to do something very nice with a standard-action during a buff round (while he is using a move-action to drink a potion): share a Teamwork feat with the whole party. (And if you're a dwarf, it can be any Teamwork feat you have, not just the free one you get with the helm.)
right, 10000 to do something fairly useless on the round that non-martials are doing their thing to trying to pretend to be a martial. Also you've burned a feat to drink the potion faster, AND you walk around carrying a potion all the time.
A good solid Sword and Board as they're called is pretty easy to work out.
feats (h-Human, G- General, B-Bonus)
1H- Iron Will
1G- Improved Shield Bash
1B- Two-Weapon Fighting
(These three off the bat, give you greater Defense and two weapons)IMO if you're going to take Iron Will (crappy tax feat), then you should take Greater Iron Will (the much better feat that gives you the reroll) immediately coincident, or at least...soon.
{. . .}
I can't find a Greater Iron Will, only an Improved Iron Will, and this grants a reroll, but only once per day, so that isn't going to help for very long.
[...] I decided for a two handed build instead, because I like the concept of reach weapons and their possibilities.
What ChessPwn said, then.
May I suggest dipping into cleric? It will boost your Will save and some domains have strong 1st-lvl options, such as Travel or Growth (Plant subdomain).
right, 10000 to do something fairly useless on the round that non-martials are doing their thing to trying to pretend to be a martial.
You need to go check up on that item, and let your imagination run wild while perusing the Teamwork feat-list at Nethy's.
It is... ...really good.
Also you've burned a feat to drink the potion faster,No I didn't. (Please attend to the context, which was the addition of a barbarian archetype.)
AND you walk around carrying a potion all the time.
Potion in hand, hand in pocket. If you need the hand for something else, drop potion as a free-action. If you've switched from S&B to polearm & buckler, this is very much not a problem.
I can't find a Greater Iron Will, only an Improved Iron Will, and this grants a reroll, but only once per day, so that isn't going to help for very long.
Well, you have to put yourself in my shoes when I was blissfully envisioning how fantastic Greater Reposition is when I wrote that. :p ...but yeah, the Iron Will chain still sucks, and the other two are no better. It's far better to just have good saves out of the gate (and it's not like will saves are necessarily the most important. Failing fort might make you go to sleep or turn you to stone, and failing reflex to AoE or falling down a grate into a monster lair can ruin your day. So start with good numbers and buy a cloak quick.
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race: dwarf, PFS 20pt buy, striker version
str: 15
dex: 14
con: 16 +
int: 12
wis: 16 +
cha: 5 -
traits: Glory of Old (regional), Defender of the Society (combat)
1. barbarian [Savage Technologist/Drunken Brute], Steel Soul (general feat)
2. cleric1 (Kurgess, domains Community, Travel)
3. fighter1 Combat Reflexes (combat feat), Extra Rage (general feat)
- magic/poison saving throws at 1st: Fort 10, Reflex 7, Will 8
- magic/poison raging saves at 1st: Fort 10, Reflex 9, Will 10
- magic/poison saving throws at 3rd: Fort 14, Reflex 7, Will 10
- magic/poison raging saves at 3rd: Fort 14, Reflex 9, Will 12
Priority mid-level items: Fortuitous polearm, Commander's Helm (Paired Opportunists)
Differences from previous build: reduces top speed w/Longstrider from 50 to 40, but picks up Community domain's Calming Touch power to eliminate a host of annoyances (including Fatigue, and that plus an extra [wis+3/day]x[1d6+1] healing make the domain well worth it). Picks up move-action potion consumption.
Rest of the build is fighter or other martial.
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Most of that looks pretty good, although I don't know why you wouldn't start with a strength of 16 and a wisdom of 14. Surely the +1 to attack and +1-2 to damage for the majority of the characters career would be a better investment than +1 to will saves. Especially since you're built to use potions of enlarge person, which would boost you to 18 strength where you get that +2 to damage right from level 1.
Also not sold on the teammate feats. My time playing cavalier and rogue tells me that unless you're going to continually badger the herd of cats you're playing with to position themselves exactly as you tell them to, those feats aren't going to be too useful. And nobody wants that guy at the table telling everyone how they should be playing.